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  1. #7201
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkrook View Post
    I completely understand where you coming from, but sadly we all know that its a Marvel imperative that Doom nor Namor can ever be made to be in any kind of beaten, or subservient position before T'Challa. You know full well why this is too.
    That's a huge factor no doubt. Had the shoe been on the other foot and T'Challa launched a first strike against Latveria I have little doubt there wouldn't be an arc in Fantastic Four or Doom's own book where he gets utter revenge against Wakanda. And I do get the feeling if T'Challa was white this probably wouldn't be as big an issue because they probably wouldn't care as much about him not being "noble" if you know what I mean.

    There's this divided perception of T'Challa that he's a simultaneously gritty, take-no-prisoner hero who isn't afraid to step outside moral bounds and this noble, philosopher-king above grey morality. It's why you get a T'Challa that's willing to crash the global economy and starve children in the Priest run then you have T'Challa choosing not to execute Doom despite starting a coup in Wakanda. Writers are selective about the kind of T'Challa they want when it serves their interests to keep a character alive lol.

    And I think this speaks to a wider issue of comics not wanting black characters that are too morally ambiguous. Who embrace making tough calls and are willing to break their own moral codes. They always gotta be the voice of reason or the one taking the high ground. T'Challa and Storm funny enough are two characters who I think have lost their edge and willingness to be dirty in recent years.
    Last edited by chief12d; 09-17-2020 at 08:50 PM.

  2. #7202
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    I don't think your post is wrong as far as pointing out where the two stand now. I agree that T'Challa probably knows that Namor wasn't fully in control of himself. He's a man of science so it's not too hard to deduce that a mortal mind would have trouble containing the power of a multiversal being.

    He was also married to an X-Man who knew better than most the corruptive power of the Phoenix as she saw her own best friend (and a much better person than Namor) fall to its influence. But I don't believe T'Challa is without a backbone and would ever be buddy buddy with someone with such a small mind who would rather than admit to an unintentional slaughter, proclaim genocide. Especially since he knows of Namor's duplicitous nature and can't be entirely sure if he actually means it.

    Which is why their current situation works narratively, even if I don't care for it. T'Challa seems to have thoroughly depersonalized their issues and looks at Namor like a dangerous wildcard. A cog in the machine of the many threats he has to take on as leader of the world's greatest team. Namor for his part looks at T'Challa as basically another hero standing in his way of protecting Atlantis. It's an almost entirely antagonistic relationship with little of the nuance that it had under Priest or Hudlin. I respect Aaron for not reopening those wounds entirely but hell, it misses out on most of the progress (however contrived) even Hickman gave them during Secret Wars lol.

    I was speaking in hypotheticals and preferences when talking about Namor apologizing and T'Challa accepting. It doesn't NEED to happen, because the current arrangement makes sense story-wise. And like you said they haven't interacted all that much since Secret Wars anyway so unless the BP books wanted to take a crack at it, it's probably not necessary. But I think that IF Marvel wanted to shift them back into being frenemies as they were prior to AvX, an admission of the Phoenix's role would be a good start along with T'Challa being willing to move on, as he seems to mostly have done already.
    How was Hickmans actions progress? He literally hyped thst beef up the entire tro event then.. T'Challa fails to kill Namor because ego? He wanted him to know it was him who was destroying him?? Namor gathered that much when T'Challa stabbed him. At that point, Namor had no more purpose to the story.

    He survived so he and T'Challa could "squash the beef" off panel in a 3 week time skip, and what did he do that whole time? Crack jokes. He could of been replaced by strange and the story still would of progressed how it did, with strange dying at the final fight instead of Namor.. easy and then they could move on because they are now even.

    But instead they go with the noble negro approach and T'Challa now looks lesser for it. Plus dude Is a 1.3 billion dollar IP. He should had enough grounds to get even with Namor and doom once and for all to reset them back to status quo

  3. #7203
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    I hope he doesn't either. We've got:

    Namor and the Deep Sea Defenders
    Soviet Super Soldiers
    Squadron Supreme of America
    Dracula and his vampire nation
    plus Gorilla man as a spy for the Russians

    Aaron's juggling a lot of balls in the air. One thing I just started thinking about - what if T'Challa has more spies among these other teams? We know Ursa Major is spying for him on the Soviets.

    That encounter with with the Japanese vampire Snowsnake where they were fighting and he said that he brought antidotes that could cure her and restore her honor? What if he did and she agreed to spy for him?

    These are the kinds of maneuvers that T'Challa needs to be doing. Dude should be trying to outmaneuver all of these groups and trying to find weak spots.
    I generally like Aaron's comics but idk if he is that type of writer to pull of thta sourt of political maneurving.
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  4. #7204
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    I generally like Aaron's comics but idk if he is that type of writer to pull of thta sourt of political maneurving.
    This is why they need a book like Agents of Wakanda. Maybe a few more B-C list characters to fill the roster and just tie it closer to these subplots in Avengers. Someone else can handle the behind the scenes stuff and let Aaron do his thing in Avengers.

  5. #7205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    How was Hickmans actions progress? He literally hyped thst beef up the entire tro event then.. T'Challa fails to kill Namor because ego? He wanted him to know it was him who was destroying him?? Namor gathered that much when T'Challa stabbed him. At that point, Namor had no more purpose to the story.

    He survived so he and T'Challa could "squash the beef" off panel in a 3 week time skip, and what did he do that whole time? Crack jokes. He could of been replaced by strange and the story still would of progressed how it did, with strange dying at the final fight instead of Namor.. easy and then they could move on because they are now even.

    But instead they go with the noble negro approach and T'Challa now looks lesser for it. Plus dude Is a 1.3 billion dollar IP. He should had enough grounds to get even with Namor and doom once and for all to reset them back to status quo
    I said contrived progress lol. Iím with you, I think Namor shouldíve died. But in lieu of that Hickman has them resolve their beef on panel so Namor could get some jokes off before dying. Combining that with their tense, but amicable relationship under Priest and Hudlin, I think ideally they should have better relationship than pure enemies the way they are now.

    Like I said, if Marvel wanted to evolve their interactions it would have to include Namor apologizing and blaming the Phoenix as well as TíChalla accepting. They donít need to fix it though because outside some snarky comments on Namorís part theyíre just enemies on account of TíChalla being an Avenger and Namor attacking the surface. Itís not this visceral, personal hatred like at the start of New Avengers.

  6. #7206
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    I said contrived progress lol. I’m with you, I think Namor should’ve died. But in lieu of that Hickman has them resolve their beef on panel so Namor could get some jokes off before dying. Combining that with their tense, but amicable relationship under Priest and Hudlin, I think ideally they should have better relationship than pure enemies the way they are now.

    Like I said, if Marvel wanted to evolve their interactions it would have to include Namor apologizing and blaming the Phoenix as well as T’Challa accepting. They don’t need to fix it though because outside some snarky comments on Namor’s part they’re just enemies on account of T’Challa being an Avenger and Namor attacking the surface. It’s not this visceral, personal hatred like at the start of New Avengers.
    Yeah, I think at this point T'Challa has moved on. Even when Namor is acting as a threat, T'Challa doesn't seem to treat it any more personally than he would if he was dealing with Paste Pot Pete. MAYBE he's just internalizing it... but for now I think any notion of getting even seems pretty trivial. On his part at least. Namor does briefly mention their previous issues... but I don't think on his part it's all that personal either. Really outside of the initial anger he felt over Atlantis being destroyed I'm not sure Namor ever really took it that personal. Namor forgave the Squadron pretty quickly too... I guess he's not one to hold grudges.

    But ya never know. There's been rumors of Namor being in the BP movie. If that's true (and obviously it could be false), the I suspect the comics will incorporate that for synergy purposes. And that COULD leave to a greater exploration of their relationship.

  7. #7207
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    I hope he doesn't either. We've got:

    Namor and the Deep Sea Defenders
    Soviet Super Soldiers
    Squadron Supreme of America
    Dracula and his vampire nation
    plus Gorilla man as a spy for the Russians

    Aaron's juggling a lot of balls in the air. One thing I just started thinking about - what if T'Challa has more spies among these other teams? We know Ursa Major is spying for him on the Soviets.

    That encounter with with the Japanese vampire Snowsnake where they were fighting and he said that he brought antidotes that could cure her and restore her honor? What if he did and she agreed to spy for him?

    These are the kinds of maneuvers that T'Challa needs to be doing. Dude should be trying to outmaneuver all of these groups and trying to find weak spots.
    Agreed. Would especially love to see T'Challa outmaneuvering and outplaying all these competing factions.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  8. #7208
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Agreed. Would especially love to see T'Challa outmaneuvering and outplaying all these competing factions.
    That's the upside of this being the Avengers book. All these factions in the end are obviously being set up to lose. I don't think we'll necessarily get Priest level brilliance because I don't think Aaron necessarily can pull it off to that level, but his BP nonetheless seems to be proactive and very prepared.

  9. #7209
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    I said contrived progress lol. I’m with you, I think Namor should’ve died. But in lieu of that Hickman has them resolve their beef on panel so Namor could get some jokes off before dying. Combining that with their tense, but amicable relationship under Priest and Hudlin, I think ideally they should have better relationship than pure enemies the way they are now.

    Like I said, if Marvel wanted to evolve their interactions it would have to include Namor apologizing and blaming the Phoenix as well as T’Challa accepting. They don’t need to fix it though because outside some snarky comments on Namor’s part they’re just enemies on account of T’Challa being an Avenger and Namor attacking the surface. It’s not this visceral, personal hatred like at the start of New Avengers.
    Yeah they are pretty much enemies for the long for seeable future. Until T'Challa gets even. It won't change and frankly Namor apologizing to me wouldn't mean anything.

  10. #7210
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    I never read the AvX stuff so all I got is third hand info, but as I understand it all the crap Namor did to Wakanda was done while under the influence of the Phoenix. He wasn't in his right mind or in control of himself, and assuming I got my facts right I never totally understood why T'Challa seemed to put the blame on Namor and not that damn space bird.

    Don't get me wrong, flooding Wakanda is f*cking horrific and Namor is a dick, but who hasn't been mind controlled before? You blame the puppet master, not the puppet.

    Or were the Phoenix five actually in their right minds when they did everything?
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

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  11. #7211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I never read the AvX stuff so all I got is third hand info, but as I understand it all the crap Namor did to Wakanda was done while under the influence of the Phoenix. He wasn't in his right mind or in control of himself, and assuming I got my facts right I never totally understood why T'Challa seemed to put the blame on Namor and not that damn space bird.

    Don't get me wrong, flooding Wakanda is f*cking horrific and Namor is a dick, but who hasn't been mind controlled before? You blame the puppet master, not the puppet.

    Or were the Phoenix five actually in their right minds when they did everything?
    Namor actually admitted that he wanted to flood Wakanda, it wasn't just the Phoenix Force that made him do it. I can't recall the issue off the top of my head.

  12. #7212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Agreed. Would especially love to see T'Challa outmaneuvering and outplaying all these competing factions.
    That would be a T'Challa move.

  13. #7213
    Fantastic Member Vanguard's Avatar
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    Does anybody remember what Tchalla calls these things? Someone here mentioned it on another page but I forgot. I need to get that Black Panther guide.

    9FCD328F-B94D-48A0-B995-BD9166EBF523.jpg

  14. #7214
    Fantastic Member Vanguard's Avatar
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    NVM I found it, “prowlers.” Dope

  15. #7215
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard View Post
    Does anybody remember what Tchalla calls these things? Someone here mentioned it on another page but I forgot. I need to get that Black Panther guide.

    9FCD328F-B94D-48A0-B995-BD9166EBF523.jpg
    I think they're either Prowlers, or Pouncers, both being panther-shaped giant robots built to defend Wakanda, though the Pouncers are more streamlined and designed for agility and maneuverability, while the Prowlers have more firepower. The Prowlers first appeared in Christopher Priest's Black Panther run, whereas the Pouncers showed up in Rise of the Black Panther. That said, either or both would be awesome to see in future comics or games featuring or starring Black Panther.
    Last edited by Huntsman Spider; 09-18-2020 at 08:17 PM. Reason: Question was already answered.
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