Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[DigiCom]

The thing you have to remember about Hickman is that he LOVES coming up with cool names for things, but tends to skimp on actually explaining them. He's a very plot-centric writer, and tends to treat characters like cogs in the Great Machine™, complete with fancy charts explaining how they fit together.

[Blind Wedjat]

Agreed, and I mostly like him for that. There's a time and place for that kind of writing too. That doesn't change the fact that King of the Dead just doesn't mean all that much. Does T'Challa possessing all the strengths of past BPs mean his strength is literally multiplied by theirs or does it mean he innately possess what each of them were good at? It's hard to define because it was never explained.

Honestly though I think the bigger problem is just the one many of us might not realise or want to admit: Wakanda's mythology is pretty weak. Coates tried but it just ended up not being interesting in my opinion.

[XPac]

The thing you have to remember about Hickman is that he LOVES coming up with cool names for things, but tends to skimp on actually explaining them. He's a very plot-centric writer, and tends to treat characters like cogs in the Great Machine™, complete with fancy charts explaining how they fit together.

I remember when they did previews of the Black Order, Ebony Maws description made it sound like he had no powers beyond being persuasive with his words. Which was a pretty vague way to discribe him putting some of mind controlling black spider thingy into people.

Hickman just isn't the best guy in the world at describing stuff.

[XPac]

Agreed, and I mostly like him for that. There's a time and place for that kind of writing too. That doesn't change the fact that King of the Dead just doesn't mean all that much. Does T'Challa possessing all the strengths of past BPs mean his strength is literally multiplied by theirs or does it mean he innately possess what each of them were good at? It's hard to define because it was never explained.

Honestly though I think the bigger problem is just the one many of us might not realise or want to admit: Wakanda's mythology is pretty weak. Coates tried but it just ended up not being interesting in my opinion.

While I do think BP writers have done a pretty good job world building in the present day, I will agree they have only done a so-so job fleshing out Wakanda and the Black Panther mythology in the past.

To this day no BP writer has ever bothered explaining vibraniums orign for example.

But I suppose the upside is that it gives future writers a lot of room to do whatever.

[chief12d]

While I do think BP writers have done a pretty good job world building in the present day, I will agree they have only done a so-so job fleshing out Wakanda and the Black Panther mythology in the past.

To this day no BP writer has ever bothered explaining vibraniums orign for example.

But I suppose the upside is that it gives future writers a lot of room to do whatever.

Coates and others have tried but Wakanda's worldbuilding leaves much to be desired. Though I'd argue that it's the most developed kingdom in Marvel and only rivaled by DC's Atlantis. For whatever reason, the fictional locations in the Big 2 comic universes tend to be weakly explored. Probably because they have to balance the superhero aspects of the genre with the epic worldbuilding and mythology. Coates especially went really heavy on the latter but I think a lot of his additions have been controversial to put it lightly.

[XPac]

Coates and others have tried but Wakanda's worldbuilding leaves much to be desired. Though I'd argue that it's the most developed kingdom in Marvel and only rivaled by DC's Atlantis. For whatever reason, the fictional locations in the Big 2 comic universes tend to be weakly explored. Probably because they have to balance the superhero aspects of the genre with the epic worldbuilding and mythology. Coates especially went really heavy on the latter but I think a lot of his additions have been controversial to put it lightly.

I think a part of it the balance between catering to casual vs the die hard fans. The die hard will lap up world building with a spoon... when you spend half your day talking about comics on a discussion board like this every day that sort of stuff is worth its weight in gold.

But for the casual fan mostly interested in seeing BP punch stuff, it's a history lesson. And for casuals (who probably make up 90% of the readership) you don't buy comics so you can have a history lesson about a place that doesn't really exist. And I say that as a guy that religiously bought and read marvel handbooks back in the day. Still miss those.

Which isn't to say I don't believe world building isn't absolutely necessary ... it is. But there's a balance as far as how you want to cram into 20 pages a month.

[DigiCom]

I think a part of it the balance between catering to casual vs the die hard fans. The die hard will lap up world building with a spoon... when you spend half your day talking about comics on a discussion board like this every day that sort of stuff is worth its weight in gold.

But for the casual fan mostly interested in seeing BP punch stuff, it's a history lesson. And for casuals (who probably make up 90% of the readership) you don't buy comics so you can have a history lesson about a place that doesn't really exist. And I say that as a guy that religiously bought and read marvel handbooks back in the day. Still miss those.

Which isn't to say I don't believe world building isn't absolutely necessary ... it is. But there's a balance as far as how you want to cram into 20 pages a month.

I disagree. The shelves are full of (prose) books that actually bother to do world-building, and many of those sell better than comics (and that's *without* bringing in manga or stuff like SAGA). The way I see it, there are at least three possible reasons why it's so uncommon in superhero comics:

1) The whole "world outside your window" issue. They need to keep things as close to contemporary society as possible, so anything that would drastically change that gets downplayed.

2) Cheap drama. Why do exotic cultures get wiped out so much? Because it makes for an easy way to show how nasty things are, without violating "realism". Look how often Asgard has been trashed.. I can't even COUNT Attilan's disasters.

3) Lack of motivation. World building takes WORK. Why bother creating a colorful and rich society when it will be at best ignored, and at worst destroyed the next time editorial needs cannon fodder for an Event?

[chief12d]

I think a part of it the balance between catering to casual vs the die hard fans. The die hard will lap up world building with a spoon... when you spend half your day talking about comics on a discussion board like this every day that sort of stuff is worth its weight in gold.

But for the casual fan mostly interested in seeing BP punch stuff, it's a history lesson. And for casuals (who probably make up 90% of the readership) you don't buy comics so you can have a history lesson about a place that doesn't really exist. And I say that as a guy that religiously bought and read marvel handbooks back in the day. Still miss those.

Which isn't to say I don't believe world building isn't absolutely necessary ... it is. But there's a balance as far as how you want to cram into 20 pages a month.

I agree entirely. Wakanda only needs as much mythology as needed in order to tell superhero stories about T'Challa. So basic info like the origin of vibranium and key Wakandan gods are necessary, but we don't need data pages about the achievements of a Black Panther from the era of the Mali Empire unless it's relevant to the plot. It's a balance, one that I think writers like Priest and McGregor did a decent enough job with. Wakanda is a setting to tell superhero stories in, not a DnD location. I think there are ways to explore more about Wakandan history and culture, but I think that's nearly as important as nailing T'Challa's characterization or giving him great villains.

[XPac]

I agree entirely. Wakanda only needs as much mythology as needed in order to tell superhero stories about T'Challa. So basic info like the origin of vibranium and key Wakandan gods are necessary, but we don't need data pages about the achievements of a Black Panther from the era of the Mali Empire unless it's relevant to the plot. It's a balance, one that I think writers like Priest and McGregor did a decent enough job with. Wakanda is a setting to tell superhero stories in, not a DnD location. I think there are ways to explore more about Wakandan history and culture, but I think that's nearly as important as nailing T'Challa's characterization or giving him great villains.

I actually miss the old days when annuals often had back up material where you could discuss a heroes power level or give a brief history lesson in a page or two without cramming it into the actual story. They were like DVD extras.

[Blind Wedjat]

I agree entirely. Wakanda only needs as much mythology as needed in order to tell superhero stories about T'Challa. So basic info like the origin of vibranium and key Wakandan gods are necessary, but we don't need data pages about the achievements of a Black Panther from the era of the Mali Empire unless it's relevant to the plot. It's a balance, one that I think writers like Priest and McGregor did a decent enough job with. Wakanda is a setting to tell superhero stories in, not a DnD location. I think there are ways to explore more about Wakandan history and culture, but I think that's nearly as important as nailing T'Challa's characterization or giving him great villains.

Still thinking the status quo is the only way to do things and tell stories is exactly why Marvel (and DC) comics are largely so stale these days.

How many times do you really need to see T'Challa in a fight with some old or new villain every three issues? How many times do we need to see Wakanda fighting a war within itself or from outside forces? How many times do we need a comic attempting to explore T'Challa's character?

How much about Wakanda do you know? How many cities in Wakanda can you mention? What's their geography really like? What structure does Wakandan religion have? What religious practices do they have? What does their religion say about creation or Vibranium? Do they have any national holidays? What's Wakandan cuisine and music like? What about sports? How do they handle funerals? What's the education system like?

Wakanda should absolutely be treated like a DnD location. Hell, that video on the film and executive power a few pages back praises the film for doing just that, considering the YouTuber is a video game writer. Even with the little that film does, there's a reason why it gets praise for worldbuilding far more than the Thor films do. Little things like elaborating on ceremonies and even just showing the streets of Wakanda matter.

There's no reason why we shouldn't learn about past BPs either or more about the Wakandan gods. These guys were legendary heroes and kings and champions of gods. Mythology is one of the most interesting things in the world. Superhero stories are born from mythology. Why shouldn't we know more about them? Why shouldn't we know more about the legendary quests and adventures of past BPs? Why don't we get any good exploration about their characters? If some of you want KOTD to mean anything, this is how to get it to work. Iron Fist did it with the Immortal Iron Fist run. Why can't we get stories like that?

We were talking about a hypothetical video game a few weeks/months ago and this lack of diverse stories and worldbuilding in the comics is exactly why I said a Black Panther game is harder to conceptualise than a lot of us want to admit. Forget game mechanics because all of those exist to make the game. Part of what makes the Arkham series so great is the breadth of stories to pull from. There's no reason why Batman gets to have a fully fleshed out, living and breathing Gotham full of history and all we get of Wakanda is the palace, Jabari lands and the yearly "Wakanda in turmoil" story arc.

I'm personally tired of being served the same ****.

[Ezyo1000]

Was he not wearing a Vibranium suit when that happened? We also don't know the comparative strength of that blast either. We don't know if Namor was actively trying to kill him with that attack or not (considering the character is very arrogant).

I mean look, if this is the hill to die on, then how is it that in New Avengers T'Challa was fighting on par with The Rider, who was essentially a Batman pastiche. Fighting on par. If T'Challa was not only enhanced but stronger than before, then he should have taken him out in seconds. Instead we had T'Challa stating that Rider could have eventually won the fight if it went on any longer.

This is my point: KOTD is simply not consistently shown to be what you're saying it is. It had potential. It still has potential, but nothing great has been realised from it.

I think the bigger problem is the discrepancy due to plot. When T'Challa faced rider, he should of wrecked him. However, this was all a Homage to when Cap abd Batman fought but in reverse, really it should of ended with T'Challa beating him by knock out or seriously injuring him.

But then he dies stuff like going against terrax, knocking the isht out of swan and she isn't weak, and going in a straight up fight against Namor then beating back dwarf and makes you question where he is at, especially when the writer says something about it as well.

I would just say he is bast champion, the kotd gives him the knowledge a d skills of precious Panthers and have it manifest sometimes, fro. Different martial arts to experience with mystical power etc

[XPac]

I think the bigger problem is the discrepancy due to plot. When T'Challa faced rider, he should of wrecked him. However, this was all a Homage to when Cap abd Batman fought but in reverse, really it should of ended with T'Challa beating him by knock out or seriously injuring him.

But then he dies stuff like going against terrax, knocking the isht out of swan and she isn't weak, and going in a straight up fight against Namor then beating back dwarf and makes you question where he is at, especially when the writer says something about it as well.

I would just say he is bast champion, the kotd gives him the knowledge a d skills of precious Panthers and have it manifest sometimes, fro. Different martial arts to experience with mystical power etc

I suppose that's the upside of having battle off panel. If you don't see what T'Challa does against Black Dwarf or Terrax, you can't credibly argue any inconsistency. Tough to say what happened is wrong when you don't know what happened.

[XPac]

I disagree. The shelves are full of (prose) books that actually bother to do world-building, and many of those sell better than comics (and that's *without* bringing in manga or stuff like SAGA). The way I see it, there are at least three possible reasons why it's so uncommon in superhero comics:

1) The whole "world outside your window" issue. They need to keep things as close to contemporary society as possible, so anything that would drastically change that gets downplayed.

2) Cheap drama. Why do exotic cultures get wiped out so much? Because it makes for an easy way to show how nasty things are, without violating "realism". Look how often Asgard has been trashed.. I can't even COUNT Attilan's disasters.

3) Lack of motivation. World building takes WORK. Why bother creating a colorful and rich society when it will be at best ignored, and at worst destroyed the next time editorial needs cannon fodder for an Event?

I think writers with long guaranteed runs, like Coates on BP or Hickman on Xmen, can take the time to world build to their hearts content.

But if you're the typical writer on the typical book which will likely be cancelled in 6 issues, you want to get all your stuff in. And that may not allow a whole lot of world building even for writers that wanted to do it.

[Ezyo1000]

Still thinking the status quo is the only way to do things and tell stories is exactly why Marvel (and DC) comics are largely so stale these days.

How many times do you really need to see T'Challa in a fight with some old or new villain every three issues? How many times do we need to see Wakanda fighting a war within itself or from outside forces? How many times do we need a comic attempting to explore T'Challa's character?

How much about Wakanda do you know? How many cities in Wakanda can you mention? What's their geography really like? What structure does Wakandan religion have? What religious practices do they have? What does their religion say about creation or Vibranium? Do they have any national holidays? What's Wakandan cuisine and music like? What about sports? How do they handle funerals? What's the education system like?

Wakanda should absolutely be treated like a DnD location. Hell, that video on the film and executive power a few pages back praises the film for doing just that, considering the YouTuber is a video game writer. Even with the little that film does, there's a reason why it gets praise for worldbuilding far more than the Thor films do. Little things like elaborating on ceremonies and even just showing the streets of Wakanda matter.

There's no reason why we shouldn't learn about past BPs either or more about the Wakandan gods. These guys were legendary heroes and kings and champions of gods. Mythology is one of the most interesting things in the world. Superhero stories are born from mythology. Why shouldn't we know more about them? Why shouldn't we know more about the legendary quests and adventures of past BPs? Why don't we get any good exploration about their characters? If some of you want KOTD to mean anything, this is how to get it to work. Iron Fist did it with the Immortal Iron Fist run. Why can't we get stories like that?

We were talking about a hypothetical video game a few weeks/months ago and this lack of diverse stories and worldbuilding in the comics is exactly why I said a Black Panther game is harder to conceptualise than a lot of us want to admit. Forget game mechanics because all of those exist to make the game. Part of what makes the Arkham series so great is the breadth of stories to pull from. There's no reason why Batman gets to have a fully fleshed out, living and breathing Gotham full of history and all we get of Wakanda is the palace, Jabari lands and the yearly "Wakanda in turmoil" story arc.

I'm personally tired of being served the same ****.

I believe the problem is that people are it as an all or nothing. Either we know next to nothing about Wakanda other then the golden city or jabari lands, or we get pages upon pages of massive text of Wakanda history that makes it so the artist has nothing to work with. Each story or arc can give off a bit of Wakandan history, you don't have to spend half an issue discussing it, but you can make it relevant to the story. Hell even in quiet moments in the story you can show the inner day to day of Wakandan life and culture. That IS part of it. Hudlin did it, Priest did it. And it didn't feel dragged. McGregor kinda felt a bit much at times abd Coates bored is to death with it whole simultaneously throwing shade and lessening Wakanda.


People need to get outside the box. Channel Hudlins mindset. Unapologetically Black.

[DigiCom]

I think writers with long guaranteed runs, like Coates on BP or Hickman on Xmen, can take the time to world build to their hearts content.

Then why do they do such a ishtty job of it?

See above.