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  1. #5536
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Agree with it or not, I think what marvel did made sense.

    They chose a writer who was capable of generating a strong buzz. And when his first arc not only sold incredibly well but won him Eisners, they had reason to keep him around from both a critical and commercial standpoint. The fact that he sold well in trades and online probably helped too.

    So you can see where they were coming from. It generated buzz, sales, and critical acclaim at a time when they needed it for the character. It simply couldn't be sustained.
    Except... commercially, he shed readers like water off a duck's back, and the critics forgot he was writing the book after the first trade came out.

    The buzz stopped buzzing YEARS ago. Now it's more like "Oh, is he still on the book?"

    EDIT: And the main book didn't win the Eisner. WoW did.
    Last edited by DigiCom; 08-13-2020 at 06:54 AM.

  2. #5537
    Astonishing Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    The sad reality is that Black Panther is just not a character these people grew up on, whether it's editors, writers, game developers and game directors you wanna be mad at.

    Priest made the character cool in the 90s. Hudlin pushed him to stardom in the late 00s. But how many young (black) readers are working in these fields? How many of them are writing comics? How many of them are in game development?

    I told you guys this before: Black Panther is not Batman. He's not Spider-Man. He doesn't have the animated series, the films, the comics, the toys and merchandise, the games. He has the potential to be them, and I certainly like him more than those guys, but it's just the truth. People didn't grow up with this character. That's why you don't have people who want to write the character or touch him because they love him, because he's a big part of their childhood. They only want to because he's hot right now, they're black themselves (and it can go on their resume) and they're literary folk that want to put their own spin on things.

    I said this as to why there's no Black Panther game yet and it applies to why this disrespect will continue in the comics. Some of you didn't want to hear it but it's the truth.

    I still think the MCU is the last frontier. It's the one thing that made Black Panther a really big deal for a new generation. People are now growing up with him. People are now seeing the potential. But those people who have the passion, the vision and the skill to do great things need to be in the right place at the right time. It is what it is.

  3. #5538
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    Except... commercially, he shed readers like water off a duck's back, and the critics forgot he was writing the book after the first trade came out.

    The buzz stopped buzzing YEARS ago. Now it's more like "Oh, is he still on the book?"

    EDIT: And the main book didn't win the Eisner. WoW did.
    SUre... like I said, it couldn't be sustained. Though realistially I don't think ANY writer could have maintained the numbers or the buzz that Coates initially got.

    Point being in simple terms he can a very critically and commercially sucessful first season, so they gave him more. That made sense at the time to give him the job, and to give him more to do after the first season.

    You can argue they should have ended his run earlier than they did... but given the state of comics today really they won't even consider cancelling a book unless it's below 20k. These days I'd probably say WELL below. By the time he got to that point, he was probably close to being done anyways.

  4. #5539
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    The sad reality is that Black Panther is just not a character these people grew up on, whether it's editors, writers, game developers and game directors you wanna be mad at.

    Priest made the character cool in the 90s. Hudlin pushed him to stardom in the late 00s. But how many young (black) readers are working in these fields? How many of them are writing comics? How many of them are in game development?

    I told you guys this before: Black Panther is not Batman. He's not Spider-Man. He doesn't have the animated series, the films, the comics, the toys and merchandise, the games. He has the potential to be them, and I certainly like him more than those guys, but it's just the truth. People didn't grow up with this character. That's why you don't have people who want to write the character or touch him because they love him, because he's a big part of their childhood. They only want to because he's hot right now, they're black themselves (and it can go on their resume) and they're literary folk that want to put their own spin on things.

    I said this as to why there's no Black Panther game yet and it applies to why this disrespect will continue in the comics. Some of you didn't want to hear it but it's the truth.

    I still think the MCU is the last frontier. It's the one thing that made Black Panther a really big deal for a new generation. People are now growing up with him. People are now seeing the potential. But those people who have the passion, the vision and the skill to do great things need to be in the right place at the right time. It is what it is.
    THough I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying, it's probably fair to point out that we're not really seeing any video games from ANY of the marvel owned super heroes at the moment. Even the characters who many in the industry did grow up with (Captain America, Iron Man, etc) aren't getting solo games at this point. Phase 1 of marvel all got games, but for whatever reason that didn't continue.

    The obvious exception is Spider-Man... but he's a Sony owned character, and obviously they have a vested interest in the video game side of things. That's Sonys bread and butter.

  5. #5540
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    The sad reality is that Black Panther is just not a character these people grew up on, whether it's editors, writers, game developers and game directors you wanna be mad at.

    Priest made the character cool in the 90s. Hudlin pushed him to stardom in the late 00s. But how many young (black) readers are working in these fields? How many of them are writing comics? How many of them are in game development?

    I told you guys this before: Black Panther is not Batman. He's not Spider-Man. He doesn't have the animated series, the films, the comics, the toys and merchandise, the games. He has the potential to be them, and I certainly like him more than those guys, but it's just the truth. People didn't grow up with this character. That's why you don't have people who want to write the character or touch him because they love him, because he's a big part of their childhood. They only want to because he's hot right now, they're black themselves (and it can go on their resume) and they're literary folk that want to put their own spin on things.

    I said this as to why there's no Black Panther game yet and it applies to why this disrespect will continue in the comics. Some of you didn't want to hear it but it's the truth.

    I still think the MCU is the last frontier. It's the one thing that made Black Panther a really big deal for a new generation. People are now growing up with him. People are now seeing the potential. But those people who have the passion, the vision and the skill to do great things need to be in the right place at the right time. It is what it is.
    Yeah, there won't be a "creative profit" from the movie for like... 10? 15 years?

    None of the current comic writers got into comics going, "my dream job is to write Black Panther" like people grew up wanting to right Spider-Man, Cap, Hulk, X-Men, Thor, Wolverine, ect.

    Only reason Miles survived is because Bendis was so damn big and he adopted minority kids. He had skin in the game.

    My biggest issue with the Coates signing is that he doesn't even like the character and it was clear from the first article. It is one thing to hire a big name (makes sense). But why hire a big name that doesn't like the character at all? And then he hired a bunch of buddies who don't even like the character.

    For Bast sake, the first full year of T'challa in the comics was Coates and Gay shitting on him. How does that build a fan base? How are those Aneka and Ayo solo issues selling lol? How is that Storm solo doing? How is that Changomire mini series selling?

    Sweet baby Bast, Marvle can't even promote C list characters like Carol and T'challa... yet sold out T'challa in his own books to try and elevate Z-listers like Midnight Angels and Shuri. What sense does that make lol?
    Black Panther Appreciation Blog: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.com/

    T'challa's Greatest Comic Book Feats: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.c...her-feats.html

  6. #5541
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    so is tchalla dead? I initially thought he was just stabbed but they said the king if the beast was dead? surely thats not true.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  7. #5542
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    so is tchalla dead? I initially thought he was just stabbed but they said the king if the beast was dead? surely thats not true.
    He is at least dead til the next issue

    Seems suspicious but as of now, he is dead.
    Black Panther Appreciation Blog: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.com/

    T'challa's Greatest Comic Book Feats: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.c...her-feats.html

  8. #5543
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    He is at least dead til the next issue

    Seems suspicious but as of now, he is dead.
    yea i think its a fake out. I highly doubt he will remain dead. oan of all the threars tchalla has faced this seems really forced how they are writing these characters as formidable as they hsve been written. especially when reading emlyre xmen they seem to be more easily dispatched.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  9. #5544
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    You can argue they should have ended his run earlier than they did... but given the state of comics today really they won't even consider cancelling a book unless it's below 20k. These days I'd probably say WELL below. By the time he got to that point, he was probably close to being done anyways.
    And that, right there, is the problem.

    Keeping a poorly-selling writer on a book because "he's almost done" anyway is a bloody stupid way to to business. It disrespects other creators, it disrespects the readers, and it disrespects the character. The book was regularly selling below 20K... hell, the last published issue sold 13K.

    But "he was almost done". Or "It's the trade sales!" Or "But the critics!" :smh:

    Excuse after excuse for throwing good money after bad at a guy who never proved his writing chops, and hasn't gotten any better. All he's done is dragged the franchise back to where it was in 1997... a place for villains to invade while T'Challa stands in the background.

    Congratulations. I hope you are very happy.

    I'm not.

  10. #5545
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    chose the short term profits using the big name at the expense of possibly adding another new "main" character long term.

    The comic play book. Way short sighted.
    See this is where I get confused though. They did the exact thing with Carol (only exception is that the MCU hyped her up years before her movie and T'Challa didn't get such hype) comic side they threw all the gimmicks at Carol and it failed miserably until they finally got an actual comic writer to write the book and she stabilized, but it feels like with T'Challa? Who is literally the biggest Solo hero of all time, they don't extend the same courtesy, like, you would think when all eyes were on him they would of looked for the best comic talent they could find, multiples even, and threw out as much A list writer content that they could

  11. #5546
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Give them some credit, though. Coates is a high profile name and well respected commentator. On paper he looks good, and they clearly made an effort.

    But these days, editors are barely capable of recognizing a writer's strength in one genre does not translate elsewhere (looking at you, Bendis). Comics seem to work on the buddy system more than anything else.
    Here's the thing, they may deal with writing but they are two completely different beasts. That's like hiring a basketball coach to lead a football team. Sure there both sports, and they may be a hell of a basketball coach, but they are completely out of their element, they don't know how to coach a football team, they don't know how to set up offensive plays, and they are completely in control of decisions made with no oversight from assistant coaches or anything. But they are a popular basketball coach and have alot of accolades so it's fine.

    There is no credit to be given here, they took a guy with zero experience and gave him full control over the hottest Black hero ever and the biggest solo super hero in history and let him run rampant without oversight. Hell they should of seen The red flags in his interviews where he had nothing good to say at all about the character and took 3 interviews before anything positive came out.

    Like MOS said, they were looking at short term profits and not long term establishment of the character and what doors he would open up if he were successful. If they gave the same effort they put into Carol to T'Challa we would have a solid solo and they would have a new stabilized IP

  12. #5547
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    SUre... like I said, it couldn't be sustained. Though realistially I don't think ANY writer could have maintained the numbers or the buzz that Coates initially got.

    Point being in simple terms he can a very critically and commercially sucessful first season, so they gave him more. That made sense at the time to give him the job, and to give him more to do after the first season.

    You can argue they should have ended his run earlier than they did... but given the state of comics today really they won't even consider cancelling a book unless it's below 20k. These days I'd probably say WELL below. By the time he got to that point, he was probably close to being done anyways.
    Except all that profit wasn't made off of just Coates name. It was the movies hype, T'Challa just came off a major Marvel event that he starred in, he hadn't had a solo in years, and it was a 50th anniversary and a ISHT ton of variants. Once it fell on Coates actually writing power to sustain the book, as MOS again has shown in the threads on the past, Coates sold less they Hudlin and I believe, barely above Priest, both of which penned the character when he was not even close to the limelight. But like those else who drank Coates koolaid, they praised him to high heavens and tried to credit him for everything good that happened to T'Challa as if it was Coates doing.. he didn't go isht for the character that is lasting or uplifting.

    I bet you anything that if Redjack got the book instead of Coates, sure he may not of gotten 300k for issue 1, but he would of gotten atleast 3/4 of that AND the book would still be going because Redjack knows how to write solid comics and a capable BP.

  13. #5548
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    And that, right there, is the problem.

    Keeping a poorly-selling writer on a book because "he's almost done" anyway is a bloody stupid way to to business. It disrespects other creators, it disrespects the readers, and it disrespects the character. The book was regularly selling below 20K... hell, the last published issue sold 13K.

    But "he was almost done". Or "It's the trade sales!" Or "But the critics!" :smh:

    Excuse after excuse for throwing good money after bad at a guy who never proved his writing chops, and hasn't gotten any better. All he's done is dragged the franchise back to where it was in 1997... a place for villains to invade while T'Challa stands in the background.

    Congratulations. I hope you are very happy.

    I'm not.
    It utterly boggles my mind, when reading Redjacks pitch, how cool it was and where he wanted to go, that somehow marvel though the same ole "Wakanda in strife" was a better option, especially when Coates started running his mouth in interviews and when his scripts came in. Dude already had them done for the entire first 12 issues and there should of been heavy revisions.

    Honestly if he did his bullisht maxi series and then left after s1 and Redjack picked it up, I would of accepted that because it Early enough to course correct. But that didn't happen either, they just let him keep going. He clearly didn't have 5 years of story telling, maybe 2 tops and that's being generous, and he never proved himself like you said.

    Notice how much more restrictions he had in his Cap book. But Marvel being too hardheaded to cut him off when they saw he was a dud, and everyone going over the top giving him asspats an undeserved praise (for other peoples work too) and Coates own inflated ego, now is going to leave T'Challa broken and either in limbo till the next movie, or (hopefully) a writer of actual quality is able to put him back together and uplift him to where he should of been heading when the first announcement of his solo released.

    But in the end it's us, the true BP fans who lost in the end while Coates and his cabal are unaffected
    Last edited by Ezyo1000; 08-13-2020 at 09:49 AM.

  14. #5549
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    But in the end it's us, the true BP fans who lost in the end while Coates and his cabal are unaffected
    Don't worry... I'm sure someone will be along momentarily to explain that the current situation is only to be expected, and there's nothing wrong with the way T'Challa, Wakanda, and his mythos are being handled in the comics. :shrug:

  15. #5550
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    Priest made the character cool in the 90s. Hudlin pushed him to stardom in the late 00s. But how many young (black) readers are working in these fields? How many of them are writing comics? How many of them are in game development?
    You can't get them into the those fields if they are NOT encouraged to enter them when they are still in middle to high school.

    Let me walk yall through my school in the 2000-2009. Lets visit the library and look at all the graphic novels. You want a graphic novel with a POC as the lead? POC in the cast????
    Here it is.... HULK. That's it.
    DC???? NOBODY. That includes a book called Teen Titans and kid named STATIC. Who BOTH had tv shows.

    Why because we could not ORDER those books with POC leads because they were not available to order from our suppliers.
    What about book stores? Especially black ones? Guess who don't carry them. I can go to a black book store and get Spidey but not a black hero from Marvel or DC.

    Public library? The FEW copies some had-were stolen and in Static's case was READ to death.
    And what black writer was writing as the MAIN writer for a book like Batman? NOBODY.

    So folks aged 45-20-didn't get to see that. And we are seeing the results.

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