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  1. #2581
    Amazing Member RDMXV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Uh Because they are wrong? If someone is saying something wrong about you and accusing you of behaving a certain way or doing something a certain way (abd Thisnis big given Coates is taking all of this stuff out of context) that isn't true. Then a true kibf would stand and state the truth. Again see T'Chadwicks all of you were wrong speech, but modify it for T'Challa showing why he made those decisions. He should come to the conclusions on his own what being a King is and why he has earned the title despite what they are saying. But instead it's more moping garbage Which doesn't even make sense that he should be moping if everything was supposedly resolved in S1.

    At this point T'Challa knows he can't plan for everything, this has been brought up multiple times from priest and Hudlin so this isn't some new unexplored concept, the whole bashing comes off as ridiculous and shows (in Coates eyes) his flaws but also shows his bias
    Tchadwick is a new "young" king...him explaining himself makes sense...Tchalla who has been through all the ups and downs of being an avenger, husband, king and everything in between def wouldnt even consider wasting his breath I would hope.

  2. #2582
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    The stuff in Hickmans run wasn't really resolved... that's the problem. Because BP didn't have his own book at the time, there was never really the time or the space to address any of the stuff that happened. The Doras rebelling against T'Challa, Shuri's death, Wakanda being destroyed, etc ... Coates being the first BP writer post Secret Wars was left with the ball, though in theory he could have simply swept Time Runs Out and ignored it like a lot of other writers did ... the 8 month time gap gave them that flexibility. But he saw a story to tell, and ran with it instead.
    Yes and all that stuff was told and addressed in S1. Yet here we are 4 years later still on the same isht. Dude can't let stuff move forward. This isn't coming full circle this is just wasting panel space because he doesn't have a story to tell

  3. #2583
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RDMXV View Post
    Tchadwick is a new "young" king...him explaining himself makes sense...Tchalla who has been through all the ups and downs of being an avenger, husband, king and everything in between def wouldnt even consider wasting his breath I would hope.
    Right... He wouldn't waste his breath.. just like he hasn't wasted his breath for 4 years now when. Everyone, his mother, and sister included, are just saying isht that ain't true all throughout this series, and guess what? He doesn't say anything. No answer is the same as agreeing in this regard. And not all readers know how T'Challa is. Just because you and I know The true context behind what he is being accused of doesn't mean casuals (whoever's left) will know the context, and I doubt they are going to search it. And of they are new to BP and this is their exposure then not makes it even worse because it makes T'Challa just looks like an incompetent ruler.. I have said this so many times now. This story that we have seen would work for a new character and mythos without any history behind it where the deal with the protagonist is that he doesn't want to be King, and his nation has barely kept itself together before he came into power. But for T'Challa and Wakanda? Dude knows better and IS better. This series makes no sense for him to be in it

  4. #2584
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLEX HECTIC View Post
    Say what...


    I mean, he's right.

    Those MCU power scales are legit.

    I mean, I could see a scenario T'challa wins 2/10 fights just by pure fight experience and strategy but he is just physically outmatched here. Especially since, at the end of FFH, Peter got control over his pre-cog.
    Black Panther Appreciation Blog: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.com/

    T'challa's Greatest Comic Book Feats: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.c...her-feats.html

  5. #2585
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Yes and all that stuff was told and addressed in S1. Yet here we are 4 years later still on the same isht. Dude can't let stuff move forward. This isn't coming full circle this is just wasting panel space because he doesn't have a story to tell
    It's a character arc. Issues brought up the very beginning of Coates story are resolved at the end of it. It's not that unusual... plenty of stories work that way.

  6. #2586
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    And I'm talking directly about the BPs and why this "therapy session" was bullisht. Coates is stuck on the past and has everyone else stuck band unable to move forward because everything is remember the past hey T'Challa remember the past when this happened? Like dude can't tell any thing new because all he does is deal with issues that happened last decade and have been resolved or moved on from.
    So, he's basically writing T'Challa as the black Hank Pym?

  7. #2587
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    It's a character arc. Issues brought up the very beginning of Coates story are resolved at the end of it. It's not that unusual... plenty of stories work that way.
    The problem with calling it a character arc is that in order for T'Coates to grow as a character, he had to be written as something he's not, just so that he can end up back where he started.

    Simple question: How as T'Challa changed as a character from where he was at the end of Secret Wars? What lesson has he learned? What growth has he acheived?

    I guarantee that whatever you come up with, someone here will show that he'd already learned it in a past run.

  8. #2588
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    So, he's basically writing T'Challa as the black Hank Pym?
    Not quite.

    I think for the MOST part Wakanda seems to have moved past their issues with what happened in AvX and Time Runs Out (outside of maybe some of the actual villains). I think this was more about T'Challa coming to grips with it and his job.

    In Pyms case, Prior to Austen you could argue Pym was in the same boat. Everyone aside from Pym himself moved on past Pyms actions, including Jan. But I think post Austen, half the Avengers still resent the guy for it to this day.

  9. #2589
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    The problem with calling it a character arc is that in order for T'Coates to grow as a character, he had to be written as something he's not, just so that he can end up back where he started.

    Simple question: How as T'Challa changed as a character from where he was at the end of Secret Wars? What lesson has he learned? What growth has he acheived?

    I guarantee that whatever you come up with, someone here will show that he'd already learned it in a past run.
    That's true of pretty much all american comic book characters. Because comics are basically endless they cycle through the same issues over and over again. Because there's no definative middle and end, their issues are seldom if ever completely resolved. If anything I'd say the whole feet of clay thing has intensified for most characters in the last decade and a half. As a whole people seem to be dealing with their issues more across the board.

    But if I could pin point a single lesson he's learned, it's probably that if he wants to play super hero in the states with his Avenger buddies while still being King he likely needs to set up shop better in Wakanda so he can leave more of the day to day stuff to him. Wakanda will likely more have to worry about elections than coups while he's out of town dealing with vampires or Celestials or whatever.

  10. #2590
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    But if I could pin point a single lesson he's learned, it's probably that if he wants to play super hero in the states with his Avenger buddies while still being King he likely needs to set up shop better in Wakanda so he can leave more of the day to day stuff to him. Wakanda will likely more have to worry about elections than coups while he's out of town dealing with vampires or Celestials or whatever.
    A Coates invention. At no time since Priest has the character been written as abandoning his duties as monarch in favor of being an Avenger. Indeed, nearly all of his creators, including Ryan Coogler, have said the exact opposite is true:

    "What’s so great about Panther is he’s a superhero who, if you grab him and ask him if he’s a superhero, he’ll tell you, ‘No.’ He sees himself as a politician, as a leader in his country."

  11. #2591
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    A Coates invention. At no time since Priest has the character been written as abandoning his duties as monarch in favor of being an Avenger. Indeed, nearly all of his creators, including Ryan Coogler, have said the exact opposite is true:

    "What’s so great about Panther is he’s a superhero who, if you grab him and ask him if he’s a superhero, he’ll tell you, ‘No.’ He sees himself as a politician, as a leader in his country."
    You can frankly make the arguement he wanted to leave the throne to play super hero any chance he got since he first decided to move to the States to be an Avenger/school teacher. Whether it's that or replace Reed in the FF or replacing Matt in Hells Kitchen, the idea I think was floating around for quite some time.

    MCU BP is different. So far at least, he's barely left Wakanda so there's no reason yet to assume he has the same issues.

  12. #2592
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    You can frankly make the arguement he wanted to leave the throne to play super hero any chance he got since he first decided to move to the States to be an Avenger/school teacher. Whether it's that or replace Reed in the FF or replacing Matt in Hells Kitchen, the idea I think was floating around for quite some time.

    MCU BP is different. So far at least, he's barely left Wakanda so there's no reason yet to assume he has the same issues.
    Which is why I said "since Priest". That eliminates the schoolteacher era.

    As for replacing DD... who was monarch at the time? Go ahead, check.

  13. #2593
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    Which is why I said "since Priest". That eliminates the schoolteacher era.

    As for replacing DD... who was monarch at the time? Go ahead, check.
    It's true that T'Challa wasn't a ruler at that time... though in a time when Wakanda was going through turmoil he still left to play guardian of Hells Kitchen. You can make an arguement he probably had some obligation to stick around and help rather than fight crime in hells kitchen even if he was no longer the actual ruler.

    And far as eliminating the school teacher era... it still happened in canon, so it's not entirley fair to argue the notion of him neglecting his duties in the States to play super hero is entirely a Coates invention. Even in Hudlins run you had the Tribal Council calling him on that while he's away fighting zombies in space... so the narrative was already implied.

  14. #2594
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    It's true that T'Challa wasn't a ruler at that time... though in a time when Wakanda was going through turmoil he still left to play guardian of Hells Kitchen. You can make an arguement he probably had some obligation to stick around and help rather than fight crime in hells kitchen even if he was no longer the actual ruler.

    And far as eliminating the school teacher era... it still happened in canon, so it's not entirley fair to argue the notion of him neglecting his duties in the States to play super hero is entirely a Coates invention. Even in Hudlins run you had the Tribal Council calling him on that while he's away fighting zombies in space... so the narrative was already implied.
    I repeat:

    At no time since Priest has the character been written as abandoning his duties as monarch in favor of being an Avenger.

    I'm not saying writers beforehand didn't write it. I'm saying that's not the way the character has been written for 20 years... until Coates decided that the only lesson he could teach T'Challa is to regress him to an earlier (and, to be blunt, less popular) portrayal so that he could regain the same characterization that Coates stripped from him in the first place.

    He took the character two steps back... all so he could bring him forward two steps. Wow, what absolutely STUNNING characterization!

    Maybe for his next book, he could remind folks that Falcon used to be a drug dealer & pimp!

  15. #2595
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    I repeat:

    At no time since Priest has the character been written as abandoning his duties as monarch in favor of being an Avenger.

    I'm not saying writers beforehand didn't write it. I'm saying that's not the way the character has been written for 20 years... until Coates decided that the only lesson he could teach T'Challa is to regress him to an earlier (and, to be blunt, less popular) portrayal so that he could regain the same characterization that Coates stripped from him in the first place.

    He took the character two steps back... all so he could bring him forward two steps. Wow, what absolutely STUNNING characterization!

    Maybe for his next book, he could remind folks that Falcon used to be a drug dealer & pimp!
    He had similar issues wanting to be in the FF too. He could have just chosen to commute to work rather than actually move there. But similar to Hells Kitchen, when he saw an opportunity to play super hero he took it.

    Any one of these things could be taken in stride but after a certain point the storytelling starts shaping the narrative here. In Geoffs Avengers run they had 3 active ruling kings assisting them against the In Betweener. And at the end of the story, two of the three declined membership in the Avengers because they wanted to return to their people. The one which accepted wasn't Thor or Namor. Again, this doesn't flat out state on panel that he'd rather play super hero rather than sit on the throne.... but a cummulative effect starts to form. Same thing happens when the Tribal Council accuses T'Challa that he has abandoned them to fight zombies in space... doesn't spell out that he would rather play super hero, but the sub text starts to form after a certain point. I don't think TOO many people were THAT suprised when he finally just flat out admitted it to himself.

    As far as him taking 2 steps back... absolutely true. He's been taking step after step back since Doom put him in a coma. He lost his throne, his powers, his marriage, the respect of the Doras, his sister, all the while Wakanda was being invaded or destroyed like half a dozen times. Coates didn't have him take a step back... he inherited the character that way and built his story around the character SLOWLY moving back forward until he got back literally everything he lost and then some.

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