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  1. #2596
    Astonishing Member Cville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    He had similar issues wanting to be in the FF too. He could have just chosen to commute to work rather than actually move there. But similar to Hells Kitchen, when he saw an opportunity to play super hero he took it.

    Any one of these things could be taken in stride but after a certain point the storytelling starts shaping the narrative here. In Geoffs Avengers run they had 3 active ruling kings assisting them against the In Betweener. And at the end of the story, two of the three declined membership in the Avengers because they wanted to return to their people. The one which accepted wasn't Thor or Namor. Again, this doesn't flat out state on panel that he'd rather play super hero rather than sit on the throne.... but a cummulative effect starts to form. Same thing happens when the Tribal Council accuses T'Challa that he has abandoned them to fight zombies in space... doesn't spell out that he would rather play super hero, but the sub text starts to form after a certain point. I don't think TOO many people were THAT suprised when he finally just flat out admitted it to himself.

    As far as him taking 2 steps back... absolutely true. He's been taking step after step back since Doom put him in a coma. He lost his throne, his powers, his marriage, the respect of the Doras, his sister, all the while Wakanda was being invaded or destroyed like half a dozen times. Coates didn't have him take a step back... he inherited the character that way and built his story around the character SLOWLY moving back forward until he got back literally everything he lost and then some.
    He converted the Baxter Building into the Wakandan embassy while the new one was being built. Technically he was still in Wakanda.

    For Hells Kitchen, he needed the danger for the training to be effective. There were no petty crimes and criminal organizations for him to test himself against.

  2. #2597
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    As far as him taking 2 steps back... absolutely true. He's been taking step after step back since Doom put him in a coma. He lost his throne, his powers, his marriage, the respect of the Doras, his sister, all the while Wakanda was being invaded or destroyed like half a dozen times. Coates didn't have him take a step back... he inherited the character that way and built his story around the character SLOWLY moving back forward until he got back literally everything he lost and then some.
    And that's where we disagree. I don't see the character as having progressed in any substantial fashion under Coates' pen. If anything, he's regressed some, since we haven't seen hide nor hair of the master strategist portrayal that made the character popular again in the first place. And yes, Coates has pounded on the "you cannot plan for everything" point more than once (including the latest issue), but have we seen his T'Challa plan for anything?

    More than anything, I get the feeling that Coates didn't think he could write the character as he was, so he changed T'Challa to someone he COULD write.

    The problem is, people (including me) actually liked T'Challa as he was. The current Panther? Not so much.

  3. #2598
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    And that's where we disagree. I don't see the character as having progressed in any substantial fashion under Coates' pen. If anything, he's regressed some, since we haven't seen hide nor hair of the master strategist portrayal that made the character popular again in the first place. And yes, Coates has pounded on the "you cannot plan for everything" point more than once (including the latest issue), but have we seen his T'Challa plan for anything?

    More than anything, I get the feeling that Coates didn't think he could write the character as he was, so he changed T'Challa to someone he COULD write.

    The problem is, people (including me) actually liked T'Challa as he was. The current Panther? Not so much.
    I think the idea was that T'Challa wasn't the person he was after everything that's happened to since since Doom put him in a coma. It effected him, and he decided to built his story around him coming back from all of that.

  4. #2599
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    He converted the Baxter Building into the Wakandan embassy while the new one was being built. Technically he was still in Wakanda.

    For Hells Kitchen, he needed the danger for the training to be effective. There were no petty crimes and criminal organizations for him to test himself against.
    Yeah, that would be like Trump moving to the US Embassy in Canada. Technically still the US, but no one would really buy that either.

    As far as T'Challa testing himself in Hells KItchen, sure I get why he did it... but the fact that he prioritized going to Hells Kitchen to test himself over Wakanda and frankly even his marriage is the part in question. His priorities at times can be called into question... this was one of those times. Though it's pretty forgivable given how cool the stories in Hells Kitchen were.

  5. #2600
    Astonishing Member Cville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Yeah, that would be like Trump moving to the US Embassy in Canada. Technically still the US, but no one would really buy that either.

    As far as T'Challa testing himself in Hells KItchen, sure I get why he did it... but the fact that he prioritized going to Hells Kitchen to test himself over Wakanda and frankly even his marriage is the part in question. His priorities at times can be called into question... this was one of those times. Though it's pretty forgivable given how cool the stories in Hells Kitchen were.
    They wouldn't have to buy it. It's a technical fact. Regardless of how they feel.

    I agree in the marriage, but the only emergency in WK during that time originated in NY.

  6. #2601
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    They wouldn't have to buy it. It's a technical fact. Regardless of how they feel.

    I agree in the marriage, but the only emergency in WK during that time originated in NY.
    I'm not saying they wouldn't buy the fact that it's US or Wakandan territory. I'm saying they wouldn't buy that as a rationale for leaving to move somewhere else. If any world leader decides to move out of the country they are presently governing it will be questioned... arguing that an embassy is territory owned by that country won't alleviate those criticisms one bit.

    As far as T'CHalla being in Hells Kitchen... that occured prior to Doom War when Wakandas processed vibranium was destroyed. Shuri to her credit handled it well without him... and maybe that was the point. But again, you can still question his priorities there. Any way you slice it, it honestly looked pretty stupid that he decided to fight crime in Hells Kitchen. THe actual stories more than justified him being made to look stupid... but he still looked stupid.

  7. #2602
    Astonishing Member Cville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I'm not saying they wouldn't buy the fact that it's US or Wakandan territory. I'm saying they wouldn't buy that as a rationale for leaving to move somewhere else. If any world leader decides to move out of the country they are presently governing it will be questioned... arguing that an embassy is territory owned by that country won't alleviate those criticisms one bit.

    As far as T'CHalla being in Hells Kitchen... that occured prior to Doom War when Wakandas processed vibranium was destroyed. Shuri to her credit handled it well without him... and maybe that was the point. But again, you can still question his priorities there. Any way you slice it, it honestly looked pretty stupid that he decided to fight crime in Hells Kitchen. THe actual stories more than justified him being made to look stupid... but he still looked stupid.
    Why would you question his priorities? He not in charge and would largely have nothing to do but tinker in a lab probably.

  8. #2603
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    Why would you question his priorities? He not in charge and would largely have nothing to do but tinker in a lab probably.
    I'm not sure it's possible NOT to question the priorities of a guy that decides the most important thing for him to do at the moment is go across the world to fight street crime. It's pretty stupid even if he's not the guy in charge.

    And it's not just that once incident taken as a void... if it were, it would be easier to overlook. There's somewhat of a pattern for him to do this whether he is or isn't king. But I do agree it's more acceptable when he's not... that was the nice thing about Shuri being ruler of Wakanda.

  9. #2604
    Astonishing Member Cville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I'm not sure it's possible NOT to question the priorities of a guy that decides the most important thing for him to do at the moment is go across the world to fight street crime. It's pretty stupid even if he's not the guy in charge.

    And it's not just that once incident taken as a void... if it were, it would be easier to overlook. There's somewhat of a pattern for him to do this whether he is or isn't king. But I do agree it's more acceptable when he's not... that was the nice thing about Shuri being ruler of Wakanda.
    Questing priorities means there something more important for him to do that he's avoiding. What's the more important thing? The marriage, but that's not subject to geography.

  10. #2605
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    Questing priorities means there something more important for him to do that he's avoiding. What's the more important thing? The marriage, but that's not subject to geography.
    THe marriage becomes a matter of geography when he decides his wife can't enter Hells Kitchen to be with him.

    As far as what could be more important than fighting street crime in Hells Kitchen.... I'd likely say almost ANYTHING he did in a typical day in Wakanda would qualify. Literally.

    But if you required me to come up with at least one example... I'd say lock himself in a lab and develop comparable mastery of vibranium that Doom had so that we don't need to every worry about this happening again. Or so he in theory could get the same uber power levels Doom had from vibranium if he needed it one day. Doom beat T'CHalla at his own game ... T'Challa should at least play catch up. THat would be a better use of his time than punching out street crime in Hells Kitchen IMO.

  11. #2606
    Astonishing Member Cville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    THe marriage becomes a matter of geography when he decides his wife can't enter Hells Kitchen to be with him.

    As far as what could be more important than fighting street crime in Hells Kitchen.... I'd likely say almost ANYTHING he did in a typical day in Wakanda would qualify. Literally.

    But if you required me to come up with at least one example... I'd say lock himself in a lab and develop comparable mastery of vibranium that Doom had so that we don't need to every worry about this happening again. Or so he in theory could get the same uber power levels Doom had from vibranium if he needed it one day. Doom beat T'CHalla at his own game ... T'Challa should at least play catch up. THat would be a better use of his time than punching out street crime in Hells Kitchen IMO.
    He turned off all the Vb with a button. I'd say he's solved the problem.

  12. #2607
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    It's a character arc. Issues brought up the very beginning of Coates story are resolved at the end of it. It's not that unusual... plenty of stories work that way.
    Yes and look at how these arcs ended. Hell you have said it yourself before, S1 ended with his sister back and Wakandan Government adjusted, S2 ended with him abd Storm back, the MA back, Wakanda is back and in theory he should be good. Here we are in a 2 year story bringing up isht that was brought up in S1 again and here he is moping. This is the same guy who had T'Challa have a whole internal monologue about seeing thing's clearer and whatever when he gave that bullisht scientist at heart nonsense. This isn't a coherent character arc as arcs show... An arc. Not pit falls abd sporadic changes

  13. #2608
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    He turned off all the Vb with a button. I'd say he's solved the problem.
    It solves the problem of the threat Doom poses... but destroys all the processed vibranium on the planet to do it. Throwing the baby out with the bath water probably shouldn't be your first and only option.

    But Doom aside there's CLEARLY more to vibranium that T'Challa at the moment understands... taking the time to at least try and master it to the level Doom has probably isn't a bad idea. If vibranium harnessed correctly can make you all powerful, it's not necessrily a bad usage of ones time to figure out how that works.

  14. #2609
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Yes and look at how these arcs ended. Hell you have said it yourself before, S1 ended with his sister back and Wakandan Government adjusted, S2 ended with him abd Storm back, the MA back, Wakanda is back and in theory he should be good. Here we are in a 2 year story bringing up isht that was brought up in S1 again and here he is moping. This is the same guy who had T'Challa have a whole internal monologue about seeing thing's clearer and whatever when he gave that bullisht scientist at heart nonsense. This isn't a coherent character arc as arcs show... An arc. Not pit falls abd sporadic changes
    He wasn't moping here... that's the point. The previous BP's were trying to see if they could break him down by haunting him with his past failures, but he instead showed that he moved past all of it.

  15. #2610
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    And that's where we disagree. I don't see the character as having progressed in any substantial fashion under Coates' pen. If anything, he's regressed some, since we haven't seen hide nor hair of the master strategist portrayal that made the character popular again in the first place. And yes, Coates has pounded on the "you cannot plan for everything" point more than once (including the latest issue), but have we seen his T'Challa plan for anything?

    More than anything, I get the feeling that Coates didn't think he could write the character as he was, so he changed T'Challa to someone he COULD write.

    The problem is, people (including me) actually liked T'Challa as he was. The current Panther? Not so much.
    I'll post here what I said at the HEF that sums it up nicely:

    It hard to write a character well when you hate everything the character stands for, represents, and inspires others to be

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