Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[Blind Wedjat]

That’s exactly how I’d describe the ritual fights I guess it contrast the difference between T’Challa with the herb and T’Challa without it but for the most part for me atleast it was pretty underwhelming. It’s a comic book movie the fights don’t really need realism, especially given it’s connected to the greater MCU. Killmonger never had the herb until after the ritual fight and was stated to have been proficient in several forms of combat if the movie didn’t state that I wouldn’t have no reason to believe it. Those ritual fights honestly reminded me of the Nolan Batman movies, great movies but the fights aren’t what people really think about.

Again it takes place in a comic book world. Daredevil has enhanced senses outside sight and he comes off way more skilled then what we saw from herbless Panther which was underwhelming to me. Elektra who should probably have just as much combat experience as T’Challa maybe even less comes off way more skilled without the superior stats pre-Death.

In Civil War T’Challa outside the suit looked like he was reading Bucky’s strikes dodging each of them, then pushing him back with fancy footwork. Heck he never even fell flat on the ground he remained in some type of stance ready to deliver his next attack. He was on the herb though I guess.

It’s not necessarily that the fighting was bad though to me it was just the pacing and how it was displayed. It’s like filming someone throw a jab compared to showing the jab being thrown, how the opponent views the jab, the conditions set to get the jab to land and whatnot. I think Superman vs Zod would be my super powered example cause that’s what Zack Snyder excels at is his fight pacing. Watchmen too.

This sort of thing you're talking about in the bolded is what leads to unnecessary jump cuts, which the Russo's use a lot to quicken the pace of their fights, but hide bad stunt work or to hide the stuntmen themselves. This sort of style can work, and I'd argue that despite a lot of zoom-ins, jump cuts, angle changes and shaky cam, the fight scenes in TWS really benefit from this. However there's just something about it that feels overdone in Civil War.

The fight you're talking about is a good example. Not saying it's a bad fight, but the close up camera with constantly switching angles can get nauseating, almost like you're being forced to not breathe while watching it. And it's not particularly intelligent, because other (albeit smaller time) directors that are experts at shooting fight scenes (think low budget American and Asian action films) don't do this. They use wider shots, less angles and steadier cams (and they can do this because the actors are usually stuntmen or extremely well trained). It's not that shaky cam and quick cuts are inherently bad, but the Russo's use them all the time which decreases any artistic intent of doing so.

In the fight, we get cuts that show T'Challa dodging a punch and then another cut to him delivering his own punch, and then another cut to him using a block, and then another cut to him being hit. That's poor action cinematography. The best martial arts films out there (Undisputed, The Raid, John Wick, Ong Bak) don't do that. Hell, there's a bit during T'Challa and Bucky's first fight when T'Challa pins him down, and we get five jump cuts to show one fluid movement.

I believe intent and style are very important also. The Russos and Coogler are very different directors with different intentions and styles when filming a fight. The Russos are flashy, and like to make fights look as cool, fast and intense as possible. Coogler on the other hand goes for drama, which isn't really realism like you're saying, something Nolan goes for. In his last two Batman films, Nolan kinda just shoots the fight scene as is, almost with no style (and some of it is pretty sloppy to be honest). Coogler focuses a lot more on achieving the perspective of the main character or characters during a fight. The long take fight from Creed above is a very good example of this, but he does it with T'Challa too, especially during the waterfall fights. Watch them again, and you'll notice that the camera usually shows T'Challa being attacked from his back, and follows him when he falls into and comes out of the water. The camera isn't too steady to feel artificial, is always close enough to feel like you're in the arena. And if you notice, whenever Killmonger starts bashing T'Challa's shield repeatedly, the camera switches to T'Challa's perspective and shakes for you to feel every hit, and so you can Killmonger's rage all over his face. It's all about the passion, the emotion, what the characters are fighting for, and not what kind of fancy footwork and moves they can pull off.

I think that's why the final battle didn't work for the most part. It felt like Coogler trying to do flashy when it's not really his thing. Admittedly I would have really liked to have seen both waterfall fights done in the long take style from Creed. That's where it would have looked really good, but I'm not too sure if the staging of the set would have allowed for it.

It's also worth noting that while Daredevil's fighting style is very good to look at, many will argue that the best action scenes from the show are the ones where Matt isn't at his best, struggles to take down no-name thugs, makes mistakes and hurts himself but keeps going anyway because they're also dramatic fights. That's the key difference between the signature long take corridor fight from season 1 and the prison breakout and riot fight from season 3, versus the apartment fight from season 2. The last one was way too flashy, while the first and third one had that grit and drama to them.

[Blind Wedjat]

so, this happened. second IMAGE AWARD nom for the show.

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Congrats once again Redjack!

[Ezyo1000]

so, this happened. second IMAGE AWARD nom for the show.

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Congrats Redjack hope you win it. Your dhow deserves it for sure

[Marvell2100]

so, this happened. second IMAGE AWARD nom for the show.

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Congrats to you and great job!

Now we gotta get you an Eisner for writing the BP solo.

Totally shameless endorsement for you to get the gig.

[chief12d]

This sort of thing you're talking about in the bolded is what leads to unnecessary jump cuts, which the Russo's use a lot to quicken the pace of their fights, but hide bad stunt work or to hide the stuntmen themselves. This sort of style can work, and I'd argue that despite a lot of zoom-ins, jump cuts, angle changes and shaky cam, the fight scenes in TWS really benefit from this. However there's just something about it that feels overdone in Civil War.

The fight you're talking about is a good example. Not saying it's a bad fight, but the close up camera with constantly switching angles can get nauseating, almost like you're being forced to not breathe while watching it. And it's not particularly intelligent, because other (albeit smaller time) directors that are experts at shooting fight scenes (think low budget American and Asian action films) don't do this. They use wider shots, less angles and steadier cams (and they can do this because the actors are usually stuntmen or extremely well trained). It's not that shaky cam and quick cuts are inherently bad, but the Russo's use them all the time which decreases any artistic intent of doing so.

In the fight, we get cuts that show T'Challa dodging a punch and then another cut to him delivering his own punch, and then another cut to him using a block, and then another cut to him being hit. That's poor action cinematography. The best martial arts films out there (Undisputed, The Raid, John Wick, Ong Bak) don't do that. Hell, there's a bit during T'Challa and Bucky's first fight when T'Challa pins him down, and we get five jump cuts to show one fluid movement.

I believe intent and style are very important also. The Russos and Coogler are very different directors with different intentions and styles when filming a fight. The Russos are flashy, and like to make fights look as cool, fast and intense as possible. Coogler on the other hand goes for drama, which isn't really realism like you're saying, something Nolan goes for. In his last two Batman films, Nolan kinda just shoots the fight scene as is, almost with no style (and some of it is pretty sloppy to be honest). Coogler focuses a lot more on achieving the perspective of the main character or characters during a fight. The long take fight from Creed above is a very good example of this, but he does it with T'Challa too, especially during the waterfall fights. Watch them again, and you'll notice that the camera usually shows T'Challa being attacked from his back, and follows him when he falls into and comes out of the water. The camera isn't too steady to feel artificial, is always close enough to feel like you're in the arena. And if you notice, whenever Killmonger starts bashing T'Challa's shield repeatedly, the camera switches to T'Challa's perspective and shakes for you to feel every hit, and so you can Killmonger's rage all over his face. It's all about the passion, the emotion, what the characters are fighting for, and not what kind of fancy footwork and moves they can pull off.

I think that's why the final battle didn't work for the most part. It felt like Coogler trying to do flashy when it's not really his thing. Admittedly I would have really liked to have seen both waterfall fights done in the long take style from Creed. That's where it would have looked really good, but I'm not too sure if the staging of the set would have allowed for it.

It's also worth noting that while Daredevil's fighting style is very good to look at, many will argue that the best action scenes from the show are the ones where Matt isn't at his best, struggles to take down no-name thugs, makes mistakes and hurts himself but keeps going anyway because they're also dramatic fights. That's the key difference between the signature long take corridor fight from season 1 and the prison breakout and riot fight from season 3, versus the apartment fight from season 2. The last one was way too flashy, while the first and third one had that grit and drama to them.

I agree with this 100%.

[Klaue's Mixtape]

That’s exactly how I’d describe the ritual fights I guess it contrast the difference between T’Challa with the herb and T’Challa without it but for the most part for me atleast it was pretty underwhelming. It’s a comic book movie the fights don’t really need realism, especially given it’s connected to the greater MCU. Killmonger never had the herb until after the ritual fight and was stated to have been proficient in several forms of combat if the movie didn’t state that I wouldn’t have no reason to believe it. Those ritual fights honestly reminded me of the Nolan Batman movies, great movies but the fights aren’t what people really think about.



Again it takes place in a comic book world. Daredevil has enhanced senses outside sight and he comes off way more skilled then what we saw from herbless Panther which was underwhelming to me. Elektra who should probably have just as much combat experience as T’Challa maybe even less comes off way more skilled without the superior stats pre-Death.

In Civil War T’Challa outside the suit looked like he was reading Bucky’s strikes dodging each of them, then pushing him back with fancy footwork. Heck he never even fell flat on the ground he remained in some type of stance ready to deliver his next attack. He was on the herb though I guess.

It’s not necessarily that the fighting was bad though to me it was just the pacing and how it was displayed. It’s like filming someone throw a jab compared to showing the jab being thrown, how the opponent views the jab, the conditions set to get the jab to land and whatnot. I think Superman vs Zod would be my super powered example cause that’s what Zack Snyder excels at is his fight pacing. Watchmen too.

Snyder is the GOAT at Superhero fights imo. However, I totally disagree with your herbless Panther takes.

These dudes were IN WATER fighting with weapons. The resistance in itself makes it tough to be graceful and yet it was. There was skill and thought to the fights.

[Klaue's Mixtape]

I'll agree the non suit Bucky fight was better than the no suit T'Challa portion of the Casino fight. However, as a whole I prefer the casino scene.

I do agree that he was trying to be fancy with the final fight. I think he was going for that Spider-Man 2 vibe with the falling scene and other scenes. I still think someone should have said in production/re-shoots that we have to move this fight to the cliff. Battle for a second in the cave, but move it to the light. Truth be told...no fight at all. Train comes in motion and they argue their idealogies. Then once Killmonger recognizes the train is damaging his suit he goes to the cliff. The train energy permantely damaged their suits and they battle it on the cliff.

I get why they wanted the fight there. Fighting in an underground railroad, etc. I get they wanted that moment Killmonger looks around after being stabbed and realized just how he blew it. Didn't appreciate seeing Wakanda (Just a kid running around believing in fairy tales?)

However, that still could have taken place on the cliff. Just wouldn't have relied on reshooting a CGI train fight so close to release. Just get back on a cliff (no water and powered up) and slug it out.

[Cville]

Ya'll see that latest "rumor" that BP2 will setup the love story between Storm and Wolverine? I'd die of laughter in the theater.

[FLEX HECTIC]

I figured out how to solve all future fight scenes from here on out...





You're welcome!

[Marvell2100]

Ya'll see that latest "rumor" that BP2 will setup the love story between Storm and Wolverine? I'd die of laughter in the theater.

Heh, must be some lonely people out there with plenty of time on their hands.

[KingNomarch]

Ya'll see that latest "rumor" that BP2 will setup the love story between Storm and Wolverine? I'd die of laughter in the theater.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Ya'll see that latest "rumor" that BP2 will setup the love story between Storm and Wolverine? I'd die of laughter in the theater.

Thought it was Storm and Dracula?

[Klaue's Mixtape]

The Doctor Strange news is why I'm glad Coogler is taking his time with the script. Glad that it appears they are letting him make the movie he wants.

[Mr MajestiK]

so, this happened. second IMAGE AWARD nom for the show.

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Congratulations Redjack.

[Mr MajestiK]

Thought it was Storm and Dracula?

I actually thought it was Storm and Rocket Racoon.