Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[taozen]

Night Thrasher suit is far less impressive than T'Challa's.



Is this about the comics or movies? Both Batman and T'Challa are equals when it comes to sciences, T'Challa began as Reed's equal. In the movies I like when they don't make characters know everything, it's bad enough when Stark does it. MCU T'Challa is more of a genius scientist than Nolan's Batman. Black Panther can lead, he's leading the Avengers right now. He just doesn't get the top spot on teams as much as he should.

I am not sure one line about designing a suit makes T'Challa a genius in the MCU since he is from the most technological advanced country in the world. If you ask 10 MCU fans-that do not follow/read comics-if T'Challa is a genius, I bet you the vast majority will say no. Hopefully we will see some of his other powers and abilities in future movies. We have not seen any showing of his enhanced senses or his cunning.

[MindofShadow]

I agree with you. T'Challa watches and sees how revenge can destroy and change a friendship with the Avengers. He does not want it to consume him. But that is the man that killed his father and his king? Maybe he deserved to die? Those are grey areas that make that decision very interesting.

At the time CW came out, I would have preferred T'challa took the prisoner back to Wakanda.

Then BP came out and it was clear T'challa gave Zemo to Ross/CIA to keep him quiet.

Prison is Prison, so it was a kingly move and thinking ahead.

See how Falcon and TWS changes things, if it ever gets to come out lol

[XPac]

At the time CW came out, I would have preferred T'challa took the prisoner back to Wakanda.

Then BP came out and it was clear T'challa gave Zemo to Ross/CIA to keep him quiet.

Prison is Prison, so it was a kingly move and thinking ahead.

See how Falcon and TWS changes things, if it ever gets to come out lol

Given it's almost a given Zemo is going to escape anyways (for the Falcon/Bucky show and who knows what else), probably best that he not be in Wakandan custody. It's a minor L Wakanda doesn't have to take.

[FLEX HECTIC]

And another thing...


MindofShadow is kind of on fire there!


(goes and stands by the break in case of emergency fire extinguisher just in case ish goes viral)

[Chesterfield]

I am not sure one line about designing a suit makes T'Challa a genius in the MCU since he is from the most technological advanced country in the world. If you ask 10 MCU fans-that do not follow/read comics-if T'Challa is a genius, I bet you the vast majority will say no. Hopefully we will see some of his other powers and abilities in future movies. We have not seen any showing of his enhanced senses or his cunning.

Good point. It's a line thats pretty much glossed over and easy to miss. I dont even need T'Challa building something in the lab but would rather him converse MORE in scientific/techno terminology where its conveyed he understands and knows what he's talking about. We CLEARLY know Pym, Lang, Banner, Shuri and Stark have that top teir intellect because the movies have gone out if their way to clearly convey this but with T'Challa it hadnt been as clear.

Personally, I don't really care about T'Challa's "wins" and losses" so to speak, all I want to see is:

His intellect clearly defined
His ability as a master strategist
And his fight scenes to be far more creative and impressive looking. Don't care if he ends up getting his ass kicked in the end as long as he puts up a cool and impressive fight I'm good. In this regard, metaphorically speaking, the journey is usually always more exciting than the destination. Obviously in the end the hero wins BUT if he has to lose or suffer a minor setback at least make him look damn good in the process; and that was my point with Cap in his movies. It wasn't about him winning fights or not or the circumstances surrounding his overall victories, it was about how good he looked, the presentation of his skills and capabilities that played a major factor towards him becoming such a popular and beloved character in the MCU. T'Challa's physicality outside of the Nigerian jungle for me was too pedestrian for my liking. Heck, even the Daredevil Netflix show had better fight choreography. I hope they really up their game for the sequel especially with Shang Chi coming out where I'm sure the choreography will be on point.

[Ezyo1000]

I agree with you. T'Challa watches and sees how revenge can destroy and change a friendship with the Avengers. He does not want it to consume him. But that is the man that killed his father and his king? Maybe he deserved to die? Those are grey areas that make that decision very interesting.

No because your also forgetting at that point, Zemo attempted to commit suicide, so there would literally be no point in T'Challa killing him. He would be giving him exactly what he wanted

[Ekie]

Tchalla is a scientist and Tchalla is a warrior.
He was responsible for Wakandans major advancements. He created an entire field of science (be it ignored or not) and that was before Hickman. He has a multitude of scientific feats proving he is indeed one of the three smartest humans in marvel.
He doesn't have to tinker in a lab coat to be considered a scientist and a genius. There isnt a device in marvel that he cant atleast reverse engineer. He found a way to revert the purpose of Galactus and shut down the mind of Thanos in ultimates.
The fact that this goal post has been now moved to Night Thrasher level intellect just goes to show how much the movie version has damaged him in that regard. Reed considers him an intellectual peer, Doom considers him a rival, and we all know how Tony feels.
Any intelligence feats list you can post will prove it. He is a great fighter because of the combination of his genius and skill. So lets stop pretending like we asked for Tchalla to be shown sitting in a lab tinkering (he has ppl for that). He is the preeminent mind in Wakanda and his history clearly shows that.

[Ezyo1000]

Good point. It's a line thats pretty much glossed over and easy to miss. I dont even need T'Challa building something in the lab but would rather him converse MORE in scientific/techno terminology where its conveyed he understands and knows what he's talking about. We CLEARLY know Pym, Lang, Banner, Shuri and Stark have that top teir intellect because the movies have gone out if their way to clearly convey this but with T'Challa it hadnt been as clear.

Personally, I don't really care about T'Challa's "wins" and losses" so to speak, all I want to see is:

His intellect clearly defined
His ability as a master strategist
And his fight scenes to be far more creative and impressive looking. Don't care if he ends up getting his ass kicked in the end as long as he puts up a cool and impressive fight I'm good. In this regard, metaphorically speaking, the journey is usually always more exciting than the destination. Obviously in the end the hero wins BUT if he has to lose or suffer a minor setback at least make him look damn good in the process; and that was my point with Cap in his movies. It wasn't about him winning fights or not or the circumstances surrounding his overall victories, it was about how good he looked, the presentation of his skills and capabilities that played a major factor towards him becoming such a popular and beloved character in the MCU. T'Challa's physicality outside of the Nigerian jungle for me was too pedestrian for my liking. Heck, even the Daredevil Netflix show had better fight choreography. I hope they really up their game for the sequel especially with Shang Chi coming out where I'm sure the choreography will be on point.

I guarantee you if T'Challa got the Tony treatment (needing help to defeat every villain he face rather then winning of his own power in a very clear cut manner) people her would be pissed. This whole lab/ scientist talk scene isn't needed. Either have him design the upgrades for his habit, or show him clearly understanding how his tech works and it's main function, then have him pull a Priest and use it in an unorthodox manner ie. When he used the daggers as an emp to take down a Helicopter. Tchalla is THAT type of genius. Not the kind that sits in a lab all day. Hence is why i think MCU Shuri should not be BP because it's shown that she clearly is not a warrior like T'Challa or even on the same fighting capacity as Okoye or Nakia.

I would rather the sequel focus more on the Priest/Hudlin Panther

[Cville]

I guarantee you if T'Challa got the Tony treatment (needing help to defeat every villain he face rather then winning of his own power in a very clear cut manner) people her would be pissed. This whole lab/ scientist talk scene isn't needed. Either have him design the upgrades for his habit, or show him clearly understanding how his tech works and it's main function, then have him pull a Priest and use it in an unorthodox manner ie. When he used the daggers as an emp to take down a Helicopter. Tchalla is THAT type of genius. Not the kind that sits in a lab all day. Hence is why i think MCU Shuri should not be BP because it's shown that she clearly is not a warrior like T'Challa or even on the same fighting capacity as Okoye or Nakia.

I would rather the sequel focus more on the Priest/Hudlin Panther

I'd add that Stark didn't invent repulor tech in the MCU, he furthered the design his father created who probably use the tesseract(sp) as a starting point and built a suit around that. Something the other engineers at Stark were able to do and Hammer techs were able to customize a suit to make War Machine. If he invented it from scratch, Whiplash wouldn't have had designs from his father to use to build his own arc reactor.

[taozen]

I'm starting to question if you saw the movie. His arc can be summarized as him stepping out of his father's shadow and becomes his own man/king to do what's best for Wakanda. Or better yet, T'Chaka's quote: "You're a good man, with a good heart, and it's hard for a good man to be king." Which perfectly summarizes T'Challa.

The first time T'Challa rejects breaking from tradition is when he's speaking with Nakia and he asks her opinion on what she thinks they should do to help the outside world. However, since the first time Wakanda reached out 11 Wakandans died and his father killed, then there's the possibility that their way of life could be ruined. So he refuses.

But that wasn't it for him because he's conflicted. Earlier he realized the good they could do when they saved the women from the traffickers. So he goes to someone else he trust, W'Kabi. He rejects W'Kabi's proposal because it isn't their way to wage war.

A huge moment comes when he decides to bring Ross to Wakanda for help. Okoye, his father, and likely ever other traditionalist would've left Ross to die. Okoye tries to remind him that he's king but he interrupts her and let her know that he's aware of his job but he can't let a good man like Ross die when they can save him especially after Ross risked his life to save Nakia.

The next huge moment which is IMO the most important part of his arc and best part of the movie is when he learned the truth from Zuri. He is left visibly shaken to his core. He modeled himself after his father and planned to rule just like he did only to find out that his father wasn't the man he thought he was. It was because of this moment Killmonger was able to win during the challenge.

His arc came full circle when he confronted his father and ancestors, the people he looked up to, and told them they were all wrong. That the tradition that they followed and shackled them were wrong and that he will not rest until he undoes Wakanda's past sins by starting with the monster they created, Killmonger because it's their fault he turned out like that. T'Challa realized the type of king he wanted to be and it wasn't the one that T'Chaka was anymore.

He had a clear arc in CW but it lacked depth until his scene with Zemo. If it did we would've had a moment where he questioned what he was doing.

Did T'Challa outright refuse to change with tradition. I did not interpret that way. He was being advised by Nakia and W'Kabi. He just says that has not been the Wakandan way or something. He never outright says I am against that. Also that really is not a character arc. That is a plot arc. He eventually changes from tradition but

For an example in an earlier post I asked what did T'Challa want. In the ancestor scene, he has he want to be a great king. So that is what he wants. Okay that is an abstract thing. He is told that "Its hard for a good man to be King." T'Challa is a good man in the beginning and in the end. He does not change. He does break from tradition but its the first he makes as a King. If he was, lets say, 100% against exposing Wakanda and eventually changes his mind, that is a significant arc. He goes to his advisors and with the information that found, informs the world about Wakanda. He breaks from his father's tradition. But does T'Challa have a character arc. No he doesn't.

Let give another example in the Dark Knight. Batman/Bruce Wayne is the protagonist. Who is the antagonist in the film? Most people say the Joker but the Joker is NOT the antagonist. The antagonist keeps the protagonist from getting what he or she wants. What does Bruce Wayne want in the beginning of the film? he want to quit being Batman and settle down with Rachel. Who keep that from happening? Harvey Dent. Harvey keep asking Batman to help me and thus keeps Bruce from quitting. Harvey Dent is the antagonist. That why the film does not end when the Joker is captured. The Joker is something else. The film ends when Dent is defeated/killed. In the traditional Hero's Journey, there are 3 figures. The Hero (Luke Skywalker), Antagonist (Darth Vader) and the guide (Ben Kenobi) In the Dark knight, the Joker is the Kenobi character. He tells Batman, you are not like them; you are like me. He wants to prove that they are the same. And how does the film end? When Batman becomes the villain in the eyes of the city. He takes the joker's place. So the Joker gets a bit what he wants. And Bruce Wayne is kept from getting what he wants: To retire with the woman he loves.

Okay look at T'Challa, he want to be a great king. Okay. He is a good man. A character arc would be if were not a good man and eventually changes to become one. Or he made bad decisions and then changes to make good decisions. Or if he was adamant and slavish about keeping with tradition. He NEVER says that HE wants to keep Wakanda secret. He says that is not Wakanda's tradition. That is why I have said he is a cypher for Wakanda and that is why his character suffers a bit. Think about it. He want to be king and is crowned. But then that was taken when he is defeated but not killed and he fights to be king again. Is that really a character arc? No, it is not a character arc. He is a good man in the beginning and is a good man in the end. He want to be a great king? Is he? Can that be judged in such a small time frame?

Now one can argue that he did not do what's was best for Wakanda in the end. And that would be correct. The Black Panther is Wakanda's King and should put Wakanda first. One could argue that the only thing T'Chaka did wrong was not take Eric back to Wakanda. T'Challa'a decision helps the world but endangers Wakanda. If you are Wakandan, would you believe this is good for your country?

Now lets use the traditional Hero's Journey and apply it to Killmonger as the protagonist. What does he want? He wants to arm oppressed Black people around the world to overthrow their oppressors. How can he do this? By becoming King of Wakanda. Who is his antagonist? That's T'Challa. Who is his Ben Kenobi figure? Klaw. But he subverts that and kills Klaw to take over leadership of his mission instead of the guide figure dying a heroic death. Eric is stopped by his antagonist (T'Challa) but Eric has such an effect on him that he reveals to the world about the secret existence of Wakanda. That is why I stated that this movie is truly a Killmonger movie where he is the protagonist.

I believe that this first movie had a great deal of world building with the world of Wakanda and significant presence of T'Challa's supporting cast. And sometimes if you have so much world building, your HERO development suffers.

[taozen]

Now we are in a discussion about whether or not the mind that created a device capable of sustaining the destruction of all of the multiverse......... Being mentally compared to night thrasher in the movie verse (the most influential verse) is a good thing.

We clearly like this character for different reasons

I hope Black Panther 2 does for Tchalla what Captain America 2 did for Steve Rogers.

That is what I want also.

[taozen]

Maybe it's just me and my understanding of the character. To me what makes t'challa the most dangerous man alive is his mind. Not his nobility not his tenacity not his fighting prowless not his powers not his title.
I have yet to see it to even a half of its potential in the MCU

You and I are of the same mind, Ekie!!!!

[taozen]

My argument is (and will always be) how important is T'Challa's inventiveness in the comics. How many conflicts has T'Challa solved because he invented something on the spot or with prep? Almost every major feat T'Challa has in the comics comes from outsmarting or outfighting someone. If you don't believe me, check out MindofShadow's blog.

Name me one invention of T'Challa's that actually matters in the Marvel Universe. You can't say Vibranium, because it's an element and it was laid at his feet. You can't say Wakandan technology because depending on which history you accept, T'Challa made Wakanda advanced by selling Vibranium or Wakanda was advanced before he was born. You can't say it's his suit, because even when Priest gave it to him he never stated it was his invention. Even if it is, it's hardly been considered a valuable asset to the MU the same way an Iron Man suit is. Every other invention T'Challa has to his name has been completely ignored. The closest he ever came to this was Shadow Physics, but from the get go that was a poorly defined fictional science. There's not one clear definition on whatever "quantum physics mixed with alchemy" even means or what it does. It's the very definition of a plot device. And like every other thing, it's been ignored because it never stuck.

No matter how much writers try to write T'Challa in this way, the simple and utter truth is that T'Challa is not a scientist. Never was, and never will be. Is he intelligent? Yes, but he's not a scientist. Tony Stark is a scientist. Hank Pym is a scientist. Reed Richards is a scientist. Can T'Challa understand a conversation between them and contribute to it? Yes, and that's why he learned Western science in the first place (and mind you, MCU T'Challa has actually been shown to understand technology).

In the same way I can read Priest's run when he had a team of scientists monitor and deplete Mephisto's energy instead of doing it himself to prove his intelligence, and not get mad about it or say he was chumped...is the same way I can watch the movie where Shuri invents the tech he uses.

I have to disagree with you on that one. He is a skilled hunter, tracker, strategist, politician, inventor, and scientist. He has a PhD in physics from Oxford University. He is proficient in physics and advanced technology. He is a scientist. If I remember correctly, he designed or redesigned the Avengers Quinjet. I can't remember for sure but didn't he design one of the Fantastic Cars? Didn't T'Challa redesign the Falcons wings? He is a scientist that is far to busy as king to be in a lab but he is a scientist. He also designed an armor when he fought Doom in Hudlin's run. He even bragged that he designed it when was about 13 year old.

[taozen]

Straight black men haven't disappeared from media just because black gay men are slightly more prominent.

The heart of the issue is that there are so few rolls for Black actors. In so many films and series, there is only one role that is often called the token. So that role, if it is only one, often comes to represent all Black people watching. I have noticed a lot in so many recent movies and films that one black role will be a gay character. I joke with my film going friends who are not Black about this topic and they will send me a message when they see it. This would not be an issue if Black people had true representation in media. Let say if approximately 14 percent of movie and tv roles were cast with Black people, then this would not be an issue. That would mean that 14% of all shows and movies would have a predominantly Black cast and we all know that does not happen.

[Agent Z]

The heart of the issue is that there are so few rolls for Black actors. In so many films and series, there is only one role that is often called the token. So that role, if it is only one, often comes to represent all Black people watching. I have noticed a lot in so many recent movies and films that one black role will be a gay character. I joke with my film going friends who are not Black about this topic and they will send me a message when they see it. This would not be an issue if Black people had true representation in media. Let say if approximately 14 percent of movie and tv roles were cast with Black people, then this would not be an issue. That would mean that 14% of all shows and movies would have a predominantly Black cast and we all know that does not happen.

The solution to that problem is to have more roles for black people not to scapegoat gay black men for straight black men's representation or lack thereof in media. Complaining about the sudden increase of gay black men in media isn't addressing this issue. Quite the contrary, it deflects from it.

Did T'Challa outright refuse to change with tradition. I did not interpret that way. He was being advised by Nakia and W'Kabi. He just says that has not been the Wakandan way or something. He never outright says I am against that. Also that really is not a character arc. That is a plot arc. He eventually changes from tradition but

For an example in an earlier post I asked what did T'Challa want. In the ancestor scene, he has he want to be a great king. So that is what he wants. Okay that is an abstract thing. He is told that "Its hard for a good man to be King." T'Challa is a good man in the beginning and in the end. He does not change. He does break from tradition but its the first he makes as a King. If he was, lets say, 100% against exposing Wakanda and eventually changes his mind, that is a significant arc. He goes to his advisors and with the information that found, informs the world about Wakanda. He breaks from his father's tradition. But does T'Challa have a character arc. No he doesn't.

T'Challa is clearly not the same person at the end of the film that he was at the beginning. Characters do not just change their views in a vacuum. They have experiences that make them question their views and seek council and advice from other characters. Human beings are social creatures. How we interact with people affects us and that is true of T'Challa. It may not be an arc you find interesting but it is an arc nonetheless.

Let give another example in the Dark Knight. Batman/Bruce Wayne is the protagonist. Who is the antagonist in the film? Most people say the Joker but the Joker is NOT the antagonist. The antagonist keeps the protagonist from getting what he or she wants. What does Bruce Wayne want in the beginning of the film? he want to quit being Batman and settle down with Rachel. Who keep that from happening? Harvey Dent. Harvey keep asking Batman to help me and thus keeps Bruce from quitting. Harvey Dent is the antagonist. That why the film does not end when the Joker is captured. The Joker is something else. The film ends when Dent is defeated/killed. In the traditional Hero's Journey, there are 3 figures. The Hero (Luke Skywalker), Antagonist (Darth Vader) and the guide (Ben Kenobi) In the Dark knight, the Joker is the Kenobi character. He tells Batman, you are not like them; you are like me. He wants to prove that they are the same. And how does the film end? When Batman becomes the villain in the eyes of the city. He takes the joker's place. So the Joker gets a bit what he wants. And Bruce Wayne is kept from getting what he wants: To retire with the woman he loves.

Batman is unable to retire with the woman he loves because the Joker kills her. Not Dent, the Joker. Dent is not the antagonist of the movie, he is at worst a romantic rival. By your logic, John Jameson in Spider-Man 2 was the antagonist because he wanted to marry MJ.

Okay look at T'Challa, he want to be a great king. Okay. He is a good man. A character arc would be if were not a good man and eventually changes to become one.

No, that's a narrow-minded view of what a character arc is. It can also be about a character having their opinions and beliefs challenged and learning those beliefs are wrong.

Or he made bad decisions and then changes to make good decisions. Or if he was adamant and slavish about keeping with tradition. He NEVER says that HE wants to keep Wakanda secret. He says that is not Wakanda's tradition. That is why I have said he is a cypher for Wakanda and that is why his character suffers a bit.

This does not make him a cypher. It simply means he is a product of the environment he grew up in. T'Challa's initial position to keep Wakanda isolated was not being made in a vacuum. It doesn't make him any less of a character for it.

Now one can argue that he did not do what's was best for Wakanda in the end. And that would be correct. The Black Panther is Wakanda's King and should put Wakanda first. One could argue that the only thing T'Chaka did wrong was not take Eric back to Wakanda. T'Challa'a decision helps the world but endangers Wakanda. If you are Wakandan, would you believe this is good for your country?

Some Wakandans would. Others would not. The movie showed the country is not a monolith and like any other country in the world people have different opinions.

Now lets use the traditional Hero's Journey and apply it to Killmonger as the protagonist. What does he want? He wants to arm oppressed Black people around the world to overthrow their oppressors. How can he do this? By becoming King of Wakanda. Who is his antagonist? That's T'Challa. Who is his Ben Kenobi figure? Klaw. But he subverts that and kills Klaw to take over leadership of his mission instead of the guide figure dying a heroic death. Eric is stopped by his antagonist (T'Challa) but Eric has such an effect on him that he reveals to the world about the secret existence of Wakanda. That is why I stated that this movie is truly a Killmonger movie where he is the protagonist.

To say this is a misreading of not only the movie but a misunderstanding of the hero's journey is an understatement. Killmonger is not the hero because he has a sympathetic goal which he uses to mask his uncontrolled anger at the world for screwing him over (something he admits at the end). Calling Klaw Killmonger's Obi-Wan figure is utterly laughable when their relationship is nothing like Obi-Wan and Luke even before Killmonger kills him.

If we take your logic at face value, then every villain becomes the protagonist of the story by virtue of being opposed by the hero.