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  1. #3421
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    We'll have to agree to disagree about that.

    IMO the heroes should put aside their differences and work together to stop Doom and the multiverse. AFTER the multiverse is saved, if T'Challa and Namor want to try and kill each other (even though at this point further conflict serves no purpose whatsoever), then more power to them... but they should save their personal issues for AFTER the crisis is resolved. Heroes trying to kill each other WHILE a bigger threat is looming just made them look bad.

    The fact that they were able to put aside their differences and work together showed the heroes actually acting like heroes... something SORELY needed in the story as the heroes looked pretty bad through Hickmans run.
    No it made TChalla look dumb and making empty promises. All of it hurt TChalla and Wakanda while Namor kept on chilling. And if your complaint is why he
    Kill him in SW? Then he should of died in TRO. He should of been in a terrible condition after the stab and getting knocked to isht by BB then Thanos should of left him there to die as he suspected betrayal. Then at the end of it all TChalla brings everyone back. The end

  2. #3422
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    No it made TChalla look dumb and making empty promises. All of it hurt TChalla and Wakanda while Namor kept on chilling. And if your complaint is why he
    Kill him in SW? Then he should of died in TRO. He should of been in a terrible condition after the stab and getting knocked to isht by BB then Thanos should of left him there to die as he suspected betrayal. Then at the end of it all TChalla brings everyone back. The end
    I think that exactly was the point of T'Challa failing to kill Namor. T'Challa was being selfish by putting his own agenda above the greater good, and he got burnt for that. You may not care whether or not T'Challa prioritizes the greater good over his own personal vendetta but I think that was one of the points the story was trying to make. The heroes actually needed to start acting like heroes. And that mean working together rather than trying to kill each other.

    Again, if T'Challa and Namor want to try and kill each other AFTER the multiverse is saved that's not so bad... it's still kind of pointless and unecessary, but at least its not putting their personal vendetta ahead of the greater good. They can try and endless try and kill each other after Doom is stopped if that's what they really want, but in the LEAST put that aside to finish the job FIRST.

  3. #3423
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I think that exactly was the point of T'Challa failing to kill Namor. T'Challa was being selfish by putting his own agenda above the greater good, and he got burnt for that. You may not care whether or not T'Challa prioritizes the greater good over his own personal vendetta but I think that was one of the points the story was trying to make. The heroes actually needed to start acting like heroes. And that mean working together rather than trying to kill each other.

    Again, if T'Challa and Namor want to try and kill each other AFTER the multiverse is saved that's not so bad... it's still kind of pointless and unecessary, but at least its not putting their personal vendetta ahead of the greater good. They can try and endless try and kill each other after Doom is stopped if that's what they really want, but in the LEAST put that aside to finish the job FIRST.
    wasn't an issue when cap and Tony pounded each other's faces in and guess What? They are friends again. And tell me what did Namor do in SW that was for the greater good? Nothing except get blasted by God Doom and crack jokes. The "greater good" was to stop Thanos and the cabal and try and strand them on the dying earth.at that point Namor had so much blood on his hands, no amount of good would of made up for it he should of been killed, hell the entire cabal minus Thanos should of died since none of them did anything after TRO except him. That's how stupid the whole thing was and how much Hickman dropped the ball. Namor should of commented that that is what he deserved for how far he fell and that he was pretty much a villain and that last thing (bringing the cabal down with him) would be his final good deed in a sea of bad

  4. #3424
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    wasn't an issue when cap and Tony pounded each other's faces in and guess What? They are friends again. And tell me what did Namor do in SW that was for the greater good? Nothing except get blasted by God Doom and crack jokes. The "greater good" was to stop Thanos and the cabal and try and strand them on the dying earth.at that point Namor had so much blood on his hands, no amount of good would of made up for it he should of been killed, hell the entire cabal minus Thanos should of died since none of them did anything after TRO except him. That's how stupid the whole thing was and how much Hickman dropped the ball. Namor should of commented that that is what he deserved for how far he fell and that he was pretty much a villain and that last thing (bringing the cabal down with him) would be his final good deed in a sea of bad
    I'd argue what happened with Cap and Tony was a massive issue too. Their earth is being invaded and those two are killing each other like idiots. It was a horribly way to end that Avengers run and made them look absolutely terrible. To their credit Namor and T'Challa were able to do what Steve and Tony could not... put aside their differences and actually work together.

    And yes you can argue the greater good was stopping Thanos (though that's debatale since Thanos and the Cabal were frankly doing more to deal with the incursions than the heroes by this point). But T'Challa's revenge scheme onlly put that plan in jeopardy. Again, he put his own agenda ahead of the greater good and it ended up a fail on his part. But to his credit, he learned from that and didn't make the same mistake later. Again, the point being T'Challa and Namor were able to actually act like heroes and work together for the greater good rather than spending their time trying to kill each other. It's heroes actually acting like heroes, which is exactly what was needed.

    If for whatever reason they wanted to kill each other, they can save it for AFTER the multiverse is saved. Though the fact that they both saw the wisdom in ending the conflict rather than continuing to kill each other works too.
    Last edited by XPac; 05-17-2020 at 05:48 PM.

  5. #3425
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I'd argue what happened with Cap and Tony was a massive issue too. Their earth is being invaded and those two are killing each other like idiots. It was a horribly way to end that Avengers run and made them look absolutely terrible. To their credit Namor and T'Challa were able to do what Steve and Tony could not... put aside their differences and actually work together.

    And yes you can argue the greater good was stopping Thanos (though that's debatale since Thanos and the Cabal were frankly doing more to deal with the incursions than the heroes by this point). But T'Challa's revenge scheme onlly put that plan in jeopardy. Again, he put his own agenda ahead of the greater good and it ended up a fail on his part. But to his credit, he learned from that and didn't make the same mistake later. Again, the point being T'Challa and Namor were able to actually act like heroes and work together for the greater good rather than spending their time trying to kill each other. It's heroes actually acting like heroes, which is exactly what was needed.

    If for whatever reason they wanted to kill each other, they can save it for AFTER the multiverse is saved. Though the fact that they both saw the wisdom in ending the conflict rather than continuing to kill each other works too.
    Both Tony and Steve too were so far gone that they needed to die to reset. Namor should of died. TChallas revenge didn't put it in jeopardy, because the cabal would of found the other incursion anyways. It would of allowed the whole thing with TChalla and Namor to come full circle and allow then to move on had he died. Now even in this avengers run Namor is slammed TChalla for destroying Atlantis and held a grudge still.. tell me how this benefited TChalla again? Tell me why only TChalla (or Black heroes in general) have to take the high ground to show how noble they are (tired out noble negro trope) and not be able to have proper retribution? Because it's not doing them any favors. He weakens them to prop up the others

  6. #3426
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Both Tony and Steve too were so far gone that they needed to die to reset. Namor should of died. TChallas revenge didn't put it in jeopardy, because the cabal would of found the other incursion anyways. It would of allowed the whole thing with TChalla and Namor to come full circle and allow then to move on had he died. Now even in this avengers run Namor is slammed TChalla for destroying Atlantis and held a grudge still.. tell me how this benefited TChalla again? Tell me why only TChalla (or Black heroes in general) have to take the high ground to show how noble they are (tired out noble negro trope) and not be able to have proper retribution? Because it's not doing them any favors. He weakens them to prop up the others
    Tony and Steve didn't need to die in order to reset... they simply needed to stop acting like children and start acting like responsible adults. Frankly like Namor and T'Challa. You shouldn't need to die to realize that it's stupid to spend your time trying to kill each other when the freaking multiverse is being destroyed. It doesn't take a reset from death... it simply takes common sense. Again if Namor and T'Challa REALLY REALLY want to continue to try and kill each other, they can also do it after the multiverse is saved.

    ANd it shouldn't just be Black Panther who takes the high ground... all heroes should, because they're freaking heroes and that's what heroes should do. That's why they call it the high ground. The fact that T'Challa and Namor were able to do something that Steve and Tony could not is more a knock against Steve and Tony than T'Challa. Hell, freaking Namor showed more maturity than them.... how embassssing is that? Not taking the high ground didn't prop them up one bit... it just made them look like fools in the end while T'Challa was able to be the hero the story actually needed.

  7. #3427
    Fantastic Member XJlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I think that exactly was the point of T'Challa failing to kill Namor. T'Challa was being selfish by putting his own agenda above the greater good, and he got burnt for that. You may not care whether or not T'Challa prioritizes the greater good over his own personal vendetta but I think that was one of the points the story was trying to make. The heroes actually needed to start acting like heroes. And that mean working together rather than trying to kill each other.

    Again, if T'Challa and Namor want to try and kill each other AFTER the multiverse is saved that's not so bad... it's still kind of pointless and unecessary, but at least its not putting their personal vendetta ahead of the greater good. They can try and endless try and kill each other after Doom is stopped if that's what they really want, but in the LEAST put that aside to finish the job FIRST.
    On the other hand, the point of T'Challa failing to vanquish Namor could be a reminder that one should simply get the job done instead of waiting for your target of revenge to bounce back.
    Last edited by XJlock; 05-17-2020 at 09:38 PM.

  8. #3428
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Tony and Steve didn't need to die in order to reset... they simply needed to stop acting like children and start acting like responsible adults. Frankly like Namor and T'Challa. You shouldn't need to die to realize that it's stupid to spend your time trying to kill each other when the freaking multiverse is being destroyed. It doesn't take a reset from death... it simply takes common sense. Again if Namor and T'Challa REALLY REALLY want to continue to try and kill each other, they can also do it after the multiverse is saved.

    ANd it shouldn't just be Black Panther who takes the high ground... all heroes should, because they're freaking heroes and that's what heroes should do. That's why they call it the high ground. The fact that T'Challa and Namor were able to do something that Steve and Tony could not is more a knock against Steve and Tony than T'Challa. Hell, freaking Namor showed more maturity than them.... how embassssing is that? Not taking the high ground didn't prop them up one bit... it just made them look like fools in the end while T'Challa was able to be the hero the story actually needed.
    You know that being the hero also means putting down the villain, and guess who was responsible for the deaths of million's of Wakandan lives, guess who started the whole conflict by attacking Wakanda unprompted, and guess who's now playing the victim and throwing the conflict into who's face. And yeah Namor should of died
    by TChalla and not by some c Lister book that later on undermined it's own team and killed any credibility they may have. Tony and Steve needed to die because they were so far gone. Namor had to die to get a reset hence why SS killed him. Easy to start fresh when you use a alt version

  9. #3429
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XJlock View Post
    On the other hand, the point of T'Challa failing to vanquish Namor could be a reminder that one should simply get the job done instead of waiting for your target of revenge to bounce back.
    Certainly both are true. If you're going to kill someone, at least be smart about it. T'Challa sort of made the classic super villain mistake of monologuing ... Namors not the first hero in a comic to have their butt saved because of it.

  10. #3430
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    You know that being the hero also means putting down the villain, and guess who was responsible for the deaths of million's of Wakandan lives, guess who started the whole conflict by attacking Wakanda unprompted, and guess who's now playing the victim and throwing the conflict into who's face. And yeah Namor should of died
    by TChalla and not by some c Lister book that later on undermined it's own team and killed any credibility they may have. Tony and Steve needed to die because they were so far gone. Namor had to die to get a reset hence why SS killed him. Easy to start fresh when you use a alt version
    Sure, you can argue Namor deserved to be put down.. point being do it AFTER the multiverse is saved. That's simply more important than T'Challa's personal vendetta.

    If Namor and T'Challa want to continue trying to kill each other after the muliverse is saved, that's their call. I'd still argue any continued conflict is completely unecessary, but in the least they've taken care of business FIRST.

    We'll have to agree to disagree that Tony and Steve needed to die. I don't think there's such a thing as being so far gone you literally need to be killed. That's silly. All you need to do is use common sense... like T'Challa and Namor did when they decided to put their differences aside for the greater good. It's called common sense. T'Challa and Namor showed it. Steve and Tony did not.

    And it's not an alternate Namor. Still the same guy.

  11. #3431
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    It's not that different from BP not killing Zemo in the MCU Civil War or Klaw in the first BP movie... for most heroes thats simply not what they do. Even when it is arguably justified. There are exceptions of course.... but for the most part the moral of the story is to NOT go around killing people out of vengeance.

    Beyond that, the only way to end this and bring actual closure is for the two to resolve their problems... not try and continue to murder each other. Yes, T'Challa can try and kill Namor then Namor can try and kill him, etc etc. Eventually they simply have to choose to resolve their issues and move past it. Both already have their kingdoms destroyed over a conflict which by this point was completely unecessary. They are well past the point where anything is gained by continuing the conflict. At this point it would be comflict simply for the sake of conflict, which doesn't do anyone any good.
    T'Challa didn't kill Zemo because he needed him alive to prove he was the one responsible for the bombing not Bucky. And in Klaw's case he wanted him to stand trial. They both got some kind of karma unlike Namor.

  12. #3432
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    T'Challa didn't kill Zemo because he needed him alive to prove he was the one responsible for the bombing not Bucky. And in Klaw's case he wanted him to stand trial. They both got some kind of karma unlike Namor.
    While it's true that Zemo being alive helps Bucky, that's not the actual reason he spared Zemo. The scene spells out his reasons. The part about wanting the Klaw to stand trail is true enough... in general that's why heroes don't go around killing bad guys. Outside the Punishers most believe in due process. Which is how it should be both morally and from a practical storytelling standpoint (ie can't have villains being killed off right and left... they're needed for stories).

    As far as Namor and karma goes... Atlantis was destroyed by both Wakanda and the Squadron Supreme, in addition to Namor himself being killed by Hyperion. So karma bit Namor in the behind too. Whether it was to the degree some wanted is another matter, but to say he got no karmic retribution whatsoever isn't entirely fair.
    Last edited by XPac; 05-18-2020 at 06:07 AM.

  13. #3433
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I stand by my statement that for almost any marvel fan casual or otherwise, Doom or Namor is a bigger than any BP rogue who hasn't already shown up yet.

    The reason people fear Doom showing up in a BP movie is because they are scared he will be protected... because he's freaking Doom and for marvel that means something. If he legit were trash people wouldn't have anything to worry about.
    Doom and Namor are nothing to movie goers. People who read comics and really know who Doom or Namor are is small. You and others who read comics want Doom or Namor in BP 2 because you people are not really Black panther fans. You really want other characters to take over Black panthers film now because Black panther is much bigger now. It would be nice if people would tell the truth.

  14. #3434
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superheat View Post
    Doom and Namor are nothing to movie goers. People who read comics and really know who Doom or Namor are is small. You and others who read comics want Doom or Namor in BP 2 because you people are not really Black panther fans. You really want other characters to take over Black panthers film now because Black panther is much bigger now. It would be nice if people would tell the truth.
    The simple truth is I don't care who the villain the BP movie is. The first movie used the villains I feel the MCU NEEDED to use (Klaw, Killmonger, M'Baku), so for the second movie I honestly don't think it matters that much. Coogler IMO can use whomever he wants, be it BP rogues or outside characters and it's fine at least as far as I'm concerned.

    Frankly I think your statement shows an irrational fear some people have over the usage of Doom and Namor. Even IF they are used, they won't take over the BP films. Coogler did a very good job in the first film, and there's no reason to assume he won't with the second. So even IF he uses those characters, it will be fine. Moral of the story being it's not that big a deal either way... people really shouldn't spend so much time worrying about it because there's nothing to worry about. I'm sure Feige and Coogler would do a GOOD job with Doom or Namor IF they use him, as they did with Killmonger. But there's no reason to believe EVERYONE won't look good, BP included.

    People are just worrying about nothing... that's the freaking truth of the matter.

  15. #3435
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XJlock View Post
    On the other hand, the point of T'Challa failing to vanquish Namor could be a reminder that one should simply get the job done instead of waiting for your target of revenge to bounce back.
    It didn't Matter, another incursion started as soon as they left. Even TChalla set it off as soon as Namor hit the ground he would of survived still. Plot saved Namor, not monologuing

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