Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[chief12d]

So, people want T'challa to be a "punchy" street level hero that frequently gets his @$$ handed to him??? Yes, Iron Man gets some suits busted open, however he immediately has another one ready that's bigger and better. I don't think that this is a relevant comparison. No, write good villains, don't water down BP!

Most fans and creators lack the creativity to elevate villains to the appropriate power level so they default to depowering the hero. There's no reason why Klaw can't be written as intelligent enough to find a way to fight T'Challa blow for blow in his suit. Or why Achebe can't be depicted as a competent mage able to completely make T'Challa's suit irrelevant in a fight. You're only limited by your imagination and the tendency for people to want to defang their heroes (especially T'Challa lol) has always been strange to me.

[Blind Wedjat]

I've said this before but T'Challa doesn't solely need physical threat villains. A large part of what makes his rogues gallery weak is the lack of variety. Part of what makes Spider-Man and Batman have such a great rogues gallery is that they possess villains that challenge every aspect of who they are. Bane challenges Batman physical prowess, Joker challenges his morality and Riddler challenges his intellect. We all know Batman can kick the crap out of Riddler but it's the thrill of solving his riddles that makes him an effective villain. Spidey has faced foes like Venom, Kraven and Mysterio who challenge on more than just a physical level. What makes a villain like Lex Luthor work is that he's set out to prove that Superman is evil. Superman can't just beat him up because Lex will be proven right, he can't keep hi arrested because he has that kind of power and he can't kill him because it goes against his moral code.

T'Challa needs villains like that. Killmonger is really the only villain he's got at the moment that really challenges him more than just physically (especially considering the film version). Many of his villains are just physical threats, and since T'Challa has no moral qualms about killing, they tend to feel redundant. It's why Marvel writers are so tempted to use Doom and Namor. Not just because they're royal leaders like him but they can't be killed because of her important they are to Marvel. But in my opinion Marvel needs to work on great villains that challenge T'Challa not just physically, but morally, intellectually, spiritually and politically.

I've advocated for Achebe for the sequel because I believe with the right writing and vision he has the potential to be a great intellectual and moral foil to T'Challa. And like Superman, what writers can do with villains such as these is go after vulnerable people or the people the main hero cares about, or their reputation, or their chosen place of protection etc. It doesn't just have to be about who can out-punch who.

[BushidoBlade2]

She and her hubby do not watch many superhero movies but they went and saw BP. I think its a legitimate complaint. Once T'Challa received the suit, I do not believe he was hit with a significant blow that damaged him. And if you think about Iron Man, his suits get damaged all the time and he get's injured inside of it.

There was a scene in the final battle where he was being overwhelmed by the Border tribe and had to release a kinetic push to blast them away. I think he was also hurt by a missile launched from one of the flying ships. But I do see where their complaints are coming from.

[DrNewGod]

So, people want T'challa to be a "punchy" street level hero that frequently gets his @$$ handed to him??? Yes, Iron Man gets some suits busted open, however he immediately has another one ready that's bigger and better. I don't think that this is a relevant comparison. No, write good villains, don't water down BP!

Not what I meant at all. His tech should be awesome. But why make BP invulnerable when you got all that really amazing agility to work with?

I have a similar opinion about Moondragon. If you amp her psionic abilities up too high, writers begin to ignore her martial arts and scientific abilities. IMO, she's at her most interesting when she's a blend of those abilities. In a similar manner, BP is most interesting when his personal (Panther God-derived) abilities are up front. Otherwise, he's just a fancy suit.

Bullet proof? Okay, with a vibranium suit, that makes sense. Wonder Man-scale-ignore-the-damage? It takes something beautiful away from him.

[Blind Wedjat]

Not what I meant at all. His tech should be awesome. But why make BP invulnerable when you got all that really amazing agility to work with?

I have a similar opinion about Moondragon. If you amp her psionic abilities up too high, writers begin to ignore her martial arts and scientific abilities. IMO, she's at her most interesting when she's a blend of those abilities. In a similar manner, BP is most interesting when his personal (Panther God-derived) abilities are up front. Otherwise, he's just a fancy suit.

Bullet proof? Okay, with a vibranium suit, that makes sense. Wonder Man-scale-ignore-the-damage? It takes something beautiful away from him.

I see where you're coming from and I agree that the final battle was doing way too much. I loved the gritty realism of the waterfall fights and I wish that was brought to the final confrontation on a more powerful scale. They had a counter to the suit right there and aside from the killing blow not much was used for it. It's weird because before that all the fights had a brutality to them that even more the MCU was different. Maybe Marvel thought it was too much at that point?

Regarding the use of his agility, we've talked about video games a lot here and I've thought about it in that case. I certainly don't want T'Challa dodging bullets with a Vibranium suit on (and I want the suit to stay) so I guess it's something we're gonna have to live with. Like Wonder Woman's weird vulnerability to piercing weapons. However if we want to see T'Challa show off his agility we can either incorporate it more heavily into his fighting style, have him use it in a free running and parkour chase sequence or get the red shirts to use more advanced weaponry.

[DrNewGod]

I see where you're coming from and I agree that the final battle was doing way too much. I loved the gritty realism of the waterfall fights and I wish that was brought to the final confrontation on a more powerful scale. They had a counter to the suit right there and aside from the killing blow not much was used for it. It's weird because before that all the fights had a brutality to them that even more the MCU was different. Maybe Marvel thought it was too much at that point?

Regarding the use of his agility, we've talked about video games a lot here and I've thought about it in that case. I certainly don't want T'Challa dodging bullets with a Vibranium suit on (and I want the suit to stay) so I guess it's something we're gonna have to live with. Like Wonder Woman's weird vulnerability to piercing weapons. However if we want to see T'Challa show off his agility we can either incorporate it more heavily into his fighting style, have him use it in a free running and parkour chase sequence or get the red shirts to use more advanced weaponry.

It strikes me Marvel should refer to the Hero Games system to address this. Their handbook includes an ability called Damage Reduction, where a character only absorbes a given percentage (depending on how much budget is committed) of the injury inflicted on them. The nature of Vibranium would seem to lend itself to that idea. BP can then survive gunfire, but it hurts, justifying dodges.

On an in-story level, I can see where being The Panther God's avatar limits how much tech BP uses. If BP is not 100% confident in the power The Panther God gives him, will The Panther God continue to be so benificent? Doubt is poison to a paladin.

[JudicatorPrime]

I'm looking for as much information as possible on T'Challa's mother, N'Yami.

Was she about the same age as T'Chaka, or far younger?

Was she always a member of the Panther tribe, or was she a descendant of one of the other animal totems?

Are there any stories of her time away from Wakanda? Did she stay on the continent, or travel abroad?

Has she met any of the other more noteworthy Marvel characters from her era?

Lastly, I understand that she was one of the first to study vibranium for its curative properties. (Ironically, she died during childbirth due to complications from an autoimmune disorder.) Does N'Yami have any known discoveries or inventions to her credit?

[DrNewGod]

I'm looking for as much information as possible on T'Challa's mother, N'Yami.

Was she about the same age as T'Chaka, or far younger?

Was she always a member of the Panther tribe, or was she a descendant of one of the other animal totems?

Are there any stories of her time away from Wakanda? Did she stay on the continent, or travel abroad?

Has she met any of the other more noteworthy Marvel characters from her era?

Lastly, I understand that she was one of the first to study vibranium for its curative properties. (Ironically, she died during childbirth due to complications from an autoimmune disorder.) Does N'Yami have any known discoveries or inventions to her credit?

My knowledge of The Panther is not encyclopedic. That said, my first memory of anybody mentioning T'Challa's mother was in the 1988 mini-series, which was really aimed at South Africa's apartheid policy.

616131.jpg

[DrNewGod]

"Congratulations! You have a healthy boy and future prince of Wakanda! What do you want to call him?"

"How about 'Stabber'?"

Y'know, I been lurking around these forums for nearly 25 years. This post may be The Grand Champ.

[Cville]

I'm looking for as much information as possible on T'Challa's mother, N'Yami.

Was she about the same age as T'Chaka, or far younger?

Was she always a member of the Panther tribe, or was she a descendant of one of the other animal totems?

Are there any stories of her time away from Wakanda? Did she stay on the continent, or travel abroad?

Has she met any of the other more noteworthy Marvel characters from her era?

Lastly, I understand that she was one of the first to study vibranium for its curative properties. (Ironically, she died during childbirth due to complications from an autoimmune disorder.) Does N'Yami have any known discoveries or inventions to her credit?

"Rise of BP" is the only solid info on her. She's barely mentioned before that

[chief12d]

T'Challa's not even really that tech-heavy imo. In most of his fights he wins via hand-to-hand combat or by calling Storm.

For the most part his tech-based arsenal is just the kinetic suit and (sometimes) energy daggers. Whatever other science stuff he does is done in a lab like when he was investigating the People. Or its done through prep like when he took on Captain Marvel and shot her down with a big ass gun. I think that's a happy balance and that the MCU will do it's best to maintain it.

I've said this before but T'Challa doesn't solely need physical threat villains. A large part of what makes his rogues gallery weak is the lack of variety. Part of what makes Spider-Man and Batman have such a great rogues gallery is that they possess villains that challenge every aspect of who they are. Bane challenges Batman physical prowess, Joker challenges his morality and Riddler challenges his intellect. We all know Batman can kick the crap out of Riddler but it's the thrill of solving his riddles that makes him an effective villain. Spidey has faced foes like Venom, Kraven and Mysterio who challenge on more than just a physical level. What makes a villain like Lex Luthor work is that he's set out to prove that Superman is evil. Superman can't just beat him up because Lex will be proven right, he can't keep hi arrested because he has that kind of power and he can't kill him because it goes against his moral code.

T'Challa needs villains like that. Killmonger is really the only villain he's got at the moment that really challenges him more than just physically (especially considering the film version). Many of his villains are just physical threats, and since T'Challa has no moral qualms about killing, they tend to feel redundant. It's why Marvel writers are so tempted to use Doom and Namor. Not just because they're royal leaders like him but they can't be killed because of her important they are to Marvel. But in my opinion Marvel needs to work on great villains that challenge T'Challa not just physically, but morally, intellectually, spiritually and politically.

I've advocated for Achebe for the sequel because I believe with the right writing and vision he has the potential to be a great intellectual and moral foil to T'Challa. And like Superman, what writers can do with villains such as these is go after vulnerable people or the people the main hero cares about, or their reputation, or their chosen place of protection etc. It doesn't just have to be about who can out-punch who.

I agree with this a lot. Most Black Panther villains are in the same archetype of martial artist/mercenary, which doesn't give the mythos much to work with in terms of thematic depth or narrative variety. Even though most of the villains you named almost always get put down with a fist, it's the questions they raised, the relationship they build with the main character, and the overall journey that makes them "great". Besides outright power, the biggest issue facing Black Panther's rogues are their lack of complexity.

To his credit, Coates tried to bring in headier concepts with his run but failed miserably in terms of pacing and some of the conclusions he reached. Despite that, questioning the nature of spirituality vs technology, exploring a society's relationship with aloof gods, and challenging Wakandan exceptionalism are all perfectly valid themes that I wish were explored more through villains like Tetu.

[FLEX HECTIC]

Rogues Gallery 101-

[JudicatorPrime]

My knowledge of The Panther is not encyclopedic. That said, my first memory of anybody mentioning T'Challa's mother was in the 1988 mini-series, which was really aimed at South Africa's apartheid policy.

"Rise of BP" is the only solid info on her. She's barely mentioned before that

Thanks to you both. I had a feeling that information on N'Yami would be scarce, if not nonexistent. Marvel doesn't really explore both parents unless they are the center of a plot or the origin of the main character's traits, sensibilities, idiosyncracies, mission, etc. Hell, I still don't know who Misty Knight's parents are. I don't think they've ever been mentioned. Guess we should count our blessings that no one thought to make Misty a Skrull infiltrator.

Anyway, it sounds like N'Yami is the perfect person for my story. Time to put together some rough sketches of her and figure out what temporary powers/abilities she'll have.

[Ezyo1000]

It strikes me Marvel should refer to the Hero Games system to address this. Their handbook includes an ability called Damage Reduction, where a character only absorbes a given percentage (depending on how much budget is committed) of the injury inflicted on them. The nature of Vibranium would seem to lend itself to that idea. BP can then survive gunfire, but it hurts, justifying dodges.

On an in-story level, I can see where being The Panther God's avatar limits how much tech BP uses. If BP is not 100% confident in the power The Panther God gives him, will The Panther God continue to be so benificent? Doubt is poison to a paladin.

See this goes back to scaling the threat up, rather then
depowering T'Challa to create faux risk. This is exactly what we went through with Coates and it doesn't work. And scaling back the habit in the sequel will simply out a stain on vibranium tech, especially since IM suits are bullet proof and it's no big deal. So bring up the threat to showcase not only why T'Challa is great, but wakandan tech as well

[Ezyo1000]

T'Challa's not even really that tech-heavy imo. In most of his fights he wins via hand-to-hand combat or by calling Storm.

For the most part his tech-based arsenal is just the kinetic suit and (sometimes) energy daggers. Whatever other science stuff he does is done in a lab like when he was investigating the People. Or its done through prep like when he took on Captain Marvel and shot her down with a big ass gun. I think that's a happy balance and that the MCU will do it's best to maintain it.



I agree with this a lot. Most Black Panther villains are in the same archetype of martial artist/mercenary, which doesn't give the mythos much to work with in terms of thematic depth or narrative variety. Even though most of the villains you named almost always get put down with a fist, it's the questions they raised, the relationship they build with the main character, and the overall journey that makes them "great". Besides outright power, the biggest issue facing Black Panther's rogues are their lack of complexity.

To his credit, Coates tried to bring in headier concepts with his run but failed miserably in terms of pacing and some of the conclusions he reached. Despite that, questioning the nature of spirituality vs technology, exploring a society's relationship with aloof gods, and challenging Wakandan exceptionalism are all perfectly valid themes that I wish were explored more through villains like Tetu.

??? Calling Storm? That's not a thing he does