Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[dkrook]

Ironically though, Coogler had no issues telling a globe trotting tale, mixed with realism and escapism all wrapped in a nice well crafted story that had originality without falling prey to stereotypes and self hate that Coates relied and relished in

CORRECT, and still found a cool way to make Wakanda the second most important character in the movie. Spot on observation breh!

[Ezyo1000]

If you honestly have a problem with a small band of heroes resolving things, you've got bigger issues than Secret Empire.

As far as Wakanda being involved ... Tchalla basically never does that with Avenger business. He fights alongside other super heroes because that's how the super hero genre usually works.

Again, this was a Captain Anerica story, not a BP story. If it were a BP story obviously Wakanda likely would have played a bigger role. J

Well Wakanda DID get involved so...

And yes a small band of heroes (like 30 heroes max) taking on a army of 100k plus? Especially when they are supposed to be a huge threat? Kinda dumb yes. Even Hickman in tro had the avengers teeming up with actual armies to face the threat on his storyline. So it's fine to have heroes take on insurmountable odds, but when facing a full force sometimes even heroes need help, And reestablishing Wakanda and having Cap being nervous about them since they are resisting and inspiring the rest of the world.. just because it's a Cap centric story doesn't mean that other places can't also help. And since Spencer made a point that Wakanda was openly challenging Cap I don't see why Wakanda couldn't assist, not even have the full might but some.

Basically if you are going to have Wakanda itself involved either commit or just use T'Challa. And especially don't punk the most advanced nation on earth with some of the most lazy asspull ever

[Ezyo1000]

CORRECT, and still found a cool way to make Wakanda the second most important character in the movie. Spot on observation breh!

I mean apparently Wakanda has to be helpless because that's of not what's the point of T'Challa? Couldn't be that you can up the threat to be a challenge that allows T'Challa to flex while also establishing why Wakanda had a 10k undefeated streak or how whenever alt universe stuff happens Wakanda is still around. Naw you gotta dumb everything down to make the threat seem credible

[XPac]

Well Wakanda DID get involved so...

And yes a small band of heroes (like 30 heroes max) taking on a army of 100k plus? Especially when they are supposed to be a huge threat? Kinda dumb yes. Even Hickman in tro had the avengers teeming up with actual armies to face the threat on his storyline. So it's fine to have heroes take on insurmountable odds, but when facing a full force sometimes even heroes need help, And reestablishing Wakanda and having Cap being nervous about them since they are resisting and inspiring the rest of the world.. just because it's a Cap centric story doesn't mean that other places can't also help. And since Spencer made a point that Wakanda was openly challenging Cap I don't see why Wakanda couldn't assist, not even have the full might but some.

Basically if you are going to have Wakanda itself involved either commit or just use T'Challa. And especially don't punk the most advanced nation on earth with some of the most lazy asspull ever

Yeah, Wakanda got involved when Wakanda was invaded. Which is pretty much the only time Tchalla drags Wakanda into conflict. The rest of the time for Avengers business he works with other super heroes.

The thing with armies is that they are cannon fodder. Stick a Hulk or a Thor in front of it, and the army is lucky to last 2 pages. They're red shirts that are really only effective against other red shirts. Once the heroes were freed, the cube was the only real problem.

With you want a story driven reason why the Wakandan army wasn't used, they were under Faustus control by that point in the story. But the actual reason is the same reason BP basically never used them in stories that actually take place outside Wakanda.

[Common Writer]

I honestly like Hudlins version the best (Hudlins version, not Mayberrys frakkery of it) Take the HSH, get judged by bast, if your not worthy then you become kitty food. It was simple and a way to have a deity without making Wakanda reliant on a god to save them but rather their own ingenuity, which is what made Wakanda special in the first place, take away vibranium and they are still extraordinary. But then again Coates torpedoed that idea as well with his Orishas™. So everything special about Wakanda is gone and all the stupid stereotypical stuff shacked to Africans remains

What I also love about Hudlin's comic is that BP read like a family drama/soap opera. As a reader you felt invested in the family dynamics that existed between Shuri, and T'Challa's mother and Uncle Syan and Storm. You felt the strength of the family when things got tough. Even the members of the Golden Palace who were not of the royal bloodline still felt like extended members of the royal family they had history with T'Challa. It was more than a job to these people.

I feel that in Coates' Wakanda, the royal family does not feel like an actual family. They seem more like associates than family members.

[XPac]

What I also love about Hudlin's comic is that BP read like a family drama/soap opera. As a reader you felt invested in the family dynamics that existed between Shuri, and T'Challa's mother and Uncle Syan and Storm. You felt the strength of the family when things got tough. Even the members of the Golden Palace who were not of the royal bloodline still felt like extended members of the royal family they had history with T'Challa. It was more than a job to these people.

I feel that in Coates' Wakanda, the royal family does not feel like an actual family. They seem more like associates than family members.

I disagree. I think Ciates uses the family aspects a lot more than any other writer. Despite creating Shuri, Hudlin barely used her until the last arc. She didn't say a single word to him at his wedding . It's like he decided to push her very very late in the game. Tchalla throughout the Coates run had far more interaction with his sister and mother.

Hudlin gave him great interaction with his wife ... props to that. But his sister and mother has a pretty minimal presence until the last arc.

[Common Writer]

There has been a lot more interaction in the Coates run but the interaction does not feel familial. It feels professional.

[XPac]

There has been a lot more interaction in the Coates run but the interaction does not feel familial. It feels professional.

How familial are you if you don't get a single line with your brother on his wedding? Man Ape had more interaction with Tchalla at his wedding than his sister.

Again, I'll give him credit for how he handled the family dynamic with Storm. But his Shuri/Tchalla interaction was lacking. I think you can argue every writer after him did a better job.

[Ezyo1000]

Yeah, Wakanda got involved when Wakanda was invaded. Which is pretty much the only time Tchalla drags Wakanda into conflict. The rest of the time for Avengers business he works with other super heroes.

The thing with armies is that they are cannon fodder. Stick a Hulk or a Thor in front of it, and the army is lucky to last 2 pages. They're red shirts that are really only effective against other red shirts. Once the heroes were freed, the cube was the only real problem.

With you want a story driven reason why the Wakandan army wasn't used, they were under Faustus control by that point in the story. But the actual reason is the same reason BP basically never used them in stories that actually take place outside Wakanda.

Yet Hickman had in his stories, the avengers and the kree, and skrulls teaming up and they were still getting their asses handed to them. Frankly a army is only as capable as their writer and given that Faustus is a C Lister at best and the wakandan army has fended off super skrulls and Thanos army... I would say they were punked by a nobody that they should of creamed. Plus the thing with Faustus obviously conflicted with Coates story

[Ezyo1000]

There has been a lot more interaction in the Coates run but the interaction does not feel familial. It feels professional.

Yeah Coates interactions between all his characters are stiff and they talk like damn Shakespearean characters then like actual people. And they are all dull and depressing. Despite having more talking, like you said they don't feel like familly but in Hudlins for sure everyone talks like their familiar with one another and not like colleague's

[XPac]

Yet Hickman had in his stories, the avengers and the kree, and skrulls teaming up and they were still getting their asses handed to them. Frankly a army is only as capable as their writer and given that Faustus is a C Lister at best and the wakandan army has fended off super skrulls and Thanos army... I would say they were punked by a nobody that they should of creamed. Plus the thing with Faustus obviously conflicted with Coates story

That's the nice thing about mind control... it's a viable way of defeating a more powerful character, or in this case more powerful army.

It's how Doom conquered the entire planet multiple times without throwing a punch.

If you want a believable way to defeat arguably the most powerful army on earth, mind control is probably at the top of the list unless its shown on panel that Wakanda has a defense against that particular form of it.

[Agent Z]

In light of everything that's happened in the comics in recent years, do you think being in a shared universe hurts Black Panther?

[Mike_Murdock]

Black Panther wouldn't exist without a shared universe, so it's a tricky question to answer.

[MindofShadow]

In light of everything that's happened in the comics in recent years, do you think being in a shared universe hurts Black Panther?

Lack of point man hurts T'challa.

He doesn't have a person in Marvel that cares enough to thin, "does this hurt the Black Panther Franchise" when they do big shared universe stufff

[MindofShadow]

Hot take income:

One of the things I want for T'Challa right now is for him to not be king anymore. I know it's controversial because being a king is part of his iconography, but if all Marvel wants of his character is to have his nation be destroyed, for him to be constantly blamed and shamed for it, then I want someone else to take the slack off him. "Wakanda be damned" is an extreme position but I agree I'd rather have T'Challa be a great character even if Wakanda kinda gets crapped on.

If David Loss taught us anything, it's just how much T'Challa can shine when the shackles of being Wakanda's king are off his feet. But I don't want a repeat of that story, and I don't want him powerless in New York. With all the weird changes and experiences T'Challa has been through all these years I'd like to combine them all together in a way. Take Bast's declaration that T'Challa is her personal champion literally. Kinda like what Moon Knight is, but less of a gritty street level vigilante.

Have T'Challa go on spiritual and mystical adventures. Write him as a technology-meets-alchemy-meets-ritualistic warrior shaman, and a demon or mystical creature hunter. All of T'Challa's missions would be delegated by Bast herself. Instead of ruling Wakanda, he's in charge of protecting it on a spiritual level. Emphasize the Black Panther's role as a spiritual leader of the Panther cult. Have him explore different realms and dimensions related to the Wakandan and African pantheons and myths. Have him participate in cosmic contests representing Bast in another planet or dimension.

And truly define the powers that were supposed to come with the King of the Dead mantle (without the name). Enhanced senses that can go beyond the physical plane. Keep his enhanced physicality but he can also perform rituals on himself or 'enchant' his gear for a mission. Kinda like a Witcher but with less magic and in a modern and sci-fi context.

I made a similar point a long time ago.

Ditch the "king" part of black panther and go hard with the "protector" part of being black panther.

Domestic, foreign, mystical, galactic, everything. His job description is "Find threats to Wakanda and eliminate them"

Two ruler system similar to Sparta or something. Shuri can stay at home on the throne.

I don't think the king/ruler thing works in the comics. At least not with the writers weve gotten for a long time. It limits the character too much. They put too much real life into it instead of fantasy. Of course a king who where panther pjs and fights people doesn't make real world since. Stop trying to make it "real." Just roll with it like Coogler did