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  1. #4036
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    https://www.ign.com/articles/2017/05...UmFOX0VOMllxeg..

    https://www.ign.com/articles/2017/09...-empire-failed

    Yeah, Hydra Cap was supposed to be the REAL Cap, no doppelganger, no mind control, not alternate reality, it was supposed to be him. Marvel swore up and down that this wouldn't wrap up in a nice little bow. Plus again SE was poorly received and poorly sold.

    The event was supposed to essentially Segway into another dark age when Osborne took over. But Marvel back peddled hard when it didn't go as planned.
    This interview doesn't state that the event would segway into another Dark Age... it just said people wouldn't forget about everything and say no hard feelings. And in all fairness, the event didn't entirely wrap up in a nice bow... several characters did die and Vegas was legitimately destroyed. But really, Secret Empire launched Legacy, not some Dark Age. Bottom line being we got a regular Cap back... which is exaclty what anyone with any lick of common sense would expect to happen.

    Obviously Cap can't stay evil... he's a character that has hundreds of issues spanning decades, and several sucessful movies under his belt. He is a very valuable IP for marvel and Disney. Marvel may try and fool people into thinking this might actually stick, but deep down they know dam well that it wouldn't and readers KNOW it wouldn't. Steve would turn back to normal just like Spider-Man would regain his body from Doc Oc and Wolverine would come back to life. Anyone that genuinely thought otherwise really hasn't read enough comic books. Pretty much EVERY big event says it's this ground breaking story which will change the MU forever... you can't allow yourself to get sucked into the hype. Because that's all it ever is.
    Last edited by XPac; 06-22-2020 at 09:44 AM.

  2. #4037
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    https://www.ign.com/articles/2017/05...UmFOX0VOMllxeg..

    https://www.ign.com/articles/2017/09...-empire-failed

    Yeah, Hydra Cap was supposed to be the REAL Cap, no doppelganger, no mind control, not alternate reality, it was supposed to be him. Marvel swore up and down that this wouldn't wrap up in a nice little bow. Plus again SE was poorly received and poorly sold.

    The event was supposed to essentially Segway into another dark age when Osborne took over. But Marvel back peddled hard when it didn't go as planned.
    That's not evidence, that's some ign guy being mad that Hydra America didn't last longer. Marvel said Hydra Cap was real, because Kobik rewrote history and made him the real one while shoving the original into a pocket dimension. At the end of the story, she fixes it and Hydra Cap is left over as an AU character. And therefore is no longer the real one. Marvel did not lie about anything, it was just cheeky PR. Spencer did an entire issue about post-Secret Empire issues that would be plaguing the MU (which Marvel has for the most part ignored), and has spoken about how the idea for a post-SE Hydra was to give them an actual motivation by having them now believe in and try to bring back the (fake!!!) Hydra history that they think is real and was taken from them by the Allied Powers. As an allegory to white supremacy groups and cults that believe in conspiracy theories. This idea means it is impossible for this "Hydra Cap 4eva/Marvel backtracking" theory that keeps floating around to have any weight. But despite Spencer saying all of this on a podcast immediately after the event was over, incredible comic book journalists ignored the author and spread misinfo through their inability to comprehend explicit text.
    I don't blind date I make the direct market vibrate

  3. #4038
    Extraordinary Member Cville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    people just pretend hydra cap was going to be the real cap forever and that marvel backtracked for no actual reason with no evidence despite spencer saying the story went through as planned, the story having both an entire subplot about how the real steve was in cube world and an issue setting up a steve/stevil rivalry, and the event actually selling well at the time, which is what marvel actually cares about instead of internet outrage mostly from people who were never going to read the book; coates' run didn't give any new information about it!
    Its not that they wouldn't have reversed it, but he should be living with the memories. People shouldn't know there were two different Caps, they should think it was him all along and doubt the cosmic cube mind whammy.

  4. #4039
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    Its not that they wouldn't have reversed it, but he should be living with the memories. People shouldn't know there were two different Caps, they should think it was him all along and doubt the cosmic cube mind whammy.
    I think that's part of the reason why we got Hydra Cap and so called 'OG Cap.

    For once, Marvel had to bow to internal logic. How would the public ever accept Cap gin unless they saw that he was replaced?

  5. #4040
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    Its not that they wouldn't have reversed it, but he should be living with the memories. People shouldn't know there were two different Caps, they should think it was him all along and doubt the cosmic cube mind whammy.
    There are SOME people that don't buy the cosmic cube mind whammy and we're seeing that in the Cap books ... but the majority of people do, and quite honestly that's understandable given Steve's track record and given how it went down. In the MU people see heroes getting mind controllled or possessed or having alternate reality versions of themselves doing stuff all the time. This sort of thing is somewhat common place, and it's easier to buy people being understanding of Steve than most heroes because he has a higher level of trust than most.

    Granted they could have taken their time and had a longer arc with Steve recovering from this if they wanted too... and we're seeing SOME of that in Coates Cap book. But I think there's actual value in having 2 Caps in the end. HydraCap potentially makes a great villain, so keeping him around I think is smart. But the upside (or downside depending on how you look at it) of keeping him around is that it makes it a lot easier for people to forgive Cap when we see a good version of him defeating an evil one in the end.
    Last edited by XPac; 06-22-2020 at 11:26 AM.

  6. #4041
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    I think that's part of the reason why we got Hydra Cap and so called 'OG Cap.

    For once, Marvel had to bow to internal logic. How would the public ever accept Cap gin unless they saw that he was replaced?
    We saw practically the entire super hero community in Axis go bad and the public was willing to forgive that (even the X-Men shockingly, after they took over NY). So even though I agree it takes a bit of suspension of disbelief to guy that, it's does happen in comics and Cap is the easiest guy to pull that with since he has the most built in trust.

    That said, the book made this as easy and as logical as humanly possible. The whole freaking world saw the "good" Cap appear and defeat the "evil" Cap. The implication was the world was even rooting for him, so compared to a lot of his peers Steve had it easy. MAYBE the ending was changed to make the outcome easier for Steve, but either way I think the outcome of good Steve returning was likely the plan all along. I think all the Big 3 (Thor, Cap, Iron Man) were slowly being restored so that Aarons could have them from and center for his Avengers relaunch.

  7. #4042
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    That is why I added the last paragraph. Writers can't stop using the King thing as a burden instead of a cool plot point. They try to make it real life and make it "make sense" when it doesn't and they should just roll with the fantasy of it.

    Priest had no problem doing it. Hudlin had no problem. Everyone since then has had a problem.
    Even Pantherjack seemed to be completely done with being a king by the end of the season once Shuri got the job (and most of that season was T'Challa using the kingship as a bargaining chip or to throw his weight around rather than actually ruling Wakanda).
    I was talking about the comics.

    MCU T'challa is 100% king and should stay that way. Because Coogler gets it and rolls with the fantasy element.
    The comics can't make up their mind whether Shuri is comic Shuri or some weird MCU hybrid. Didn't her solo series have her pretty explicitly state she didn't want to rule again?

  8. #4043
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Even Pantherjack seemed to be completely done with being a king by the end of the season once Shuri got the job (and most of that season was T'Challa using the kingship as a bargaining chip or to throw his weight around rather than actually ruling Wakanda).

    The comics can't make up their mind whether Shuri is comic Shuri or some weird MCU hybrid. Didn't her solo series have her pretty explicitly state she didn't want to rule again?
    Wakanda under Shuri was destroyed like 4 times in a row, before she basically ended up killing herself and giving the job back to her brother. Even though a lot of that wasn't entirely her fault, I don't find it shocking that she would be overly eager to get back on the throne after her last run.

    Which isn't to say she wouldn't do it if she had to for whatever reason... but at this point I think she's more than good allowing T'Challa to keep the job.

  9. #4044
    Extraordinary Member Cville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    I think that's part of the reason why we got Hydra Cap and so called 'OG Cap.

    For once, Marvel had to bow to internal logic. How would the public ever accept Cap gin unless they saw that he was replaced?
    Thats the point. There not supposed to. He has to spend a few arcs resotring his good name. And prove in court what happened.

  10. #4045
    Extraordinary Member Cville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    There are SOME people that don't buy the cosmic cube mind whammy and we're seeing that in the Cap books ... but the majority of people do, and quite honestly that's understandable given Steve's track record and given how it went down. In the MU people see heroes getting mind controllled or possessed or having alternate reality versions of themselves doing stuff all the time. This sort of thing is somewhat common place, and it's easier to buy people being understanding of Steve than most heroes because he has a higher level of trust than most.

    Granted they could have taken their time and had a longer arc with Steve recovering from this if they wanted too... and we're seeing SOME of that in Coates Cap book. But I think there's actual value in having 2 Caps in the end. HydraCap potentially makes a great villain, so keeping him around I think is smart. But the upside (or downside depending on how you look at it) of keeping him around is that it makes it a lot easier for people to forgive Cap when we see a good version of him defeating an evil one in the end.
    Well those some people must be blind. It happened on Television and I believe that's what was said in Waids run. So naysayers probably never liked Cap to begin with. Lpl.

  11. #4046
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    Well those some people must be blind. It happened on Television and I believe that's what was said in Waids run. So naysayers probably never liked Cap to begin with. Lpl.
    There are people who to this day believe the earth is flat, so it's not THAT shocking that there are people out there who believe what they choose to believe, evidence be damned.

    But if we want to give those people the benefit of the doubt, they do live in a world where things can easily be faked or whatever. It could all be a trick or a conspiracy or a cover up with LMDs or shape changers or whatever. The MU is a very scary place, and maybe some people are just choosing to believe the worst.

  12. #4047
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    What's going on with Space Panther?

  13. #4048
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    That's not evidence, that's some ign guy being mad that Hydra America didn't last longer. Marvel said Hydra Cap was real, because Kobik rewrote history and made him the real one while shoving the original into a pocket dimension. At the end of the story, she fixes it and Hydra Cap is left over as an AU character. And therefore is no longer the real one. Marvel did not lie about anything, it was just cheeky PR. Spencer did an entire issue about post-Secret Empire issues that would be plaguing the MU (which Marvel has for the most part ignored), and has spoken about how the idea for a post-SE Hydra was to give them an actual motivation by having them now believe in and try to bring back the (fake!!!) Hydra history that they think is real and was taken from them by the Allied Powers. As an allegory to white supremacy groups and cults that believe in conspiracy theories. This idea means it is impossible for this "Hydra Cap 4eva/Marvel backtracking" theory that keeps floating around to have any weight. But despite Spencer saying all of this on a podcast immediately after the event was over, incredible comic book journalists ignored the author and spread misinfo through their inability to comprehend explicit text.
    I don't think your understanding what I'm saying. Obviously Cap wouldn't remain evil forever, the fact thst somehow thsts the supposed argument is ridiculous. Like death, stuff like that isn't permanent. However this quote from Spencer in the interview:

    "I was always a big fan of stories like Man in the High Castle, or even in the Marvel universe we had done stories like Age of Apocalypse or Age of Ultron that had shown villainous take-overs of various kinds, but they were usually alternate realities or alternate time lines, things like that," Spencer told us. "So a big part of my pitch was 'what if we really do it this time?' What if the bad guys win, and there's a jump in time, and then we see what the country and what the world looks like after they've won?"

    Does not line up with how the event went. Because by the last issue, Cap hadn't won. The event ended as soon as he got the final shard. There was no look into the aftermath. Of the supposed victory was Cap taking over the us then that's a hollow victory indeed and hardly worth nothing. It was a stumble by marvel. And honestly I don't even care about the event other that the poor treatment T'Challa and Wakanda received, but to act like all of that was planned and that it was a good event simply isn't true

  14. #4049
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    I don't think your understanding what I'm saying. Obviously Cap wouldn't remain evil forever, the fact thst somehow thsts the supposed argument is ridiculous. Like death, stuff like that isn't permanent. However this quote from Spencer in the interview:

    "I was always a big fan of stories like Man in the High Castle, or even in the Marvel universe we had done stories like Age of Apocalypse or Age of Ultron that had shown villainous take-overs of various kinds, but they were usually alternate realities or alternate time lines, things like that," Spencer told us. "So a big part of my pitch was 'what if we really do it this time?' What if the bad guys win, and there's a jump in time, and then we see what the country and what the world looks like after they've won?"

    Does not line up with how the event went. Because by the last issue, Cap hadn't won. The event ended as soon as he got the final shard. There was no look into the aftermath. Of the supposed victory was Cap taking over the us then that's a hollow victory indeed and hardly worth nothing. It was a stumble by marvel. And honestly I don't even care about the event other that the poor treatment T'Challa and Wakanda received, but to act like all of that was planned and that it was a good event simply isn't true
    But it DOES line up wiht how the event went. The bad guys did win... they just lost again afterwards. Because it's a comic book story, and in the end the bad guys always lose. The notion that Hydra was going to continue rule the US indefinately is no less ridiculous than the idea of Cap staying evil. Both were temporary things. This was Spencers story and once Spencers story ended, those things ended.

    I think the issue is you just fell for the event hype. Every big marvel event hypes itself up as this massive story which forever changes the landscape of the MU with it's supposed far reaching impications. Spencer was spinning things to try and make his story a bigger deal, and he can't be faulted for that... it's his job. But the fact that it fell short of the hype in this event simply means it ended up just like every other big event marvel has ever had.

  15. #4050
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    We saw practically the entire super hero community in Axis go bad and the public was willing to forgive that (even the X-Men shockingly, after they took over NY). So even though I agree it takes a bit of suspension of disbelief to guy that, it's does happen in comics and Cap is the easiest guy to pull that with since he has the most built in trust.

    That said, the book made this as easy and as logical as humanly possible. The whole freaking world saw the "good" Cap appear and defeat the "evil" Cap. The implication was the world was even rooting for him, so compared to a lot of his peers Steve had it easy. MAYBE the ending was changed to make the outcome easier for Steve, but either way I think the outcome of good Steve returning was likely the plan all along. I think all the Big 3 (Thor, Cap, Iron Man) were slowly being restored so that Aarons could have them from and center for his Avengers relaunch.
    It wasn't the entire hero community, though. Cap, Spidey and others were unaffected, and the villains framed themselves to take the heat off.

    Hell, some of the associates of the inverted heroes didn't even realize some had been mindwhammied.

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