Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[Mike_Murdock]

https://www.ign.com/articles/2017/05...UmFOX0VOMllxeg..

https://www.ign.com/articles/2017/09...-empire-failed

Yeah, Hydra Cap was supposed to be the REAL Cap, no doppelganger, no mind control, not alternate reality, it was supposed to be him. Marvel swore up and down that this wouldn't wrap up in a nice little bow. Plus again SE was poorly received and poorly sold.

He was the real Cap. Reality was altered to change him, but it didn't create a second Cap. On the other hand, the Cap who came out of the story was explicitly a creation of the memories of Cap from others based on how he was before reality was rewritten. But, given that it's a cosmic cube, it's entirely possible for the new good Cap to also be the real Cap because the laws of physic or logic doesn't apply.

[dkrook]

What's going on with Space Panther?

Lol, I'm wondering what happened to ghost panther! All this Cap talk in the Panther thread is funny, yet somehow foreboding as all the pics of Cap dominant Avengers. Even though Panther has been the leader going into Empyre.

[DrNewGod]

He was the real Cap. Reality was altered to change him, but it didn't create a second Cap. On the other hand, the Cap who came out of the story was explicitly a creation of the memories of Cap from others based on how he was before reality was rewritten. But, given that it's a cosmic cube, it's entirely possible for the new good Cap to also be the real Cap because the laws of physic or logic doesn't apply.

You are giving me a migraine.

[XPac]

You are giving me a migraine.

Trying to figure out which was the "real" Cap in this story definately could make your head spin.

In the practical sense, the obvious thing to do is just say the "good" Cap at the end was real and move on, since that's clearly the Captain America they are using moving foreward. But you CAN make the arguement that HydraCap was the real one. What's real in a story involving a reality warping plot device?

[XJlock]

AVENGERS #36
JUL200672
(W) Jason Aaron (A) Javi Garron (CA) Matteo Scalera
THE AGE OF KHONSHU PRESENTS THE FIGHT OF THE CENTURY!
Moon Knight versus the Black Panther-for the fate of reality.
Rated T+
In Shops: Sep 30, 2020
SRP: $3.99

[XPac]

AVENGERS #36
JUL200672
(W) Jason Aaron (A) Javi Garron (CA) Matteo Scalera
THE AGE OF KHONSHU PRESENTS THE FIGHT OF THE CENTURY!
Moon Knight versus the Black Panther-for the fate of reality.
Rated T+
In Shops: Sep 30, 2020
SRP: $3.99

That definately sounds really cool. We sort of missed out on an MK/BP in the last issue, but they were clearly saving it for later.

[Ezyo1000]

But it DOES line up wiht how the event went. The bad guys did win... they just lost again afterwards. Because it's a comic book story, and in the end the bad guys always lose. The notion that Hydra was going to continue rule the US indefinately is no less ridiculous than the idea of Cap staying evil. Both were temporary things. This was Spencers story and once Spencers story ended, those things ended.

I think the issue is you just fell for the event hype. Every big marvel event hypes itself up as this massive story which forever changes the landscape of the MU with it's supposed far reaching impications. Spencer was spinning things to try and make his story a bigger deal, and he can't be faulted for that... it's his job. But the fact that it fell short of the hype in this event simply means it ended up just like every other big event marvel has ever had.

Again, if you actually read what I said instead of inserting your own assessments and then answering those as if they were my own. I took Spencer's own quote, abd then compared it to what actually takes place. OBVIOUSLY ( don't know how many times I ha e to say this) Cap wasn't going to remain evil indefinitely, or take over the us indefinitely, anybody who reads comics for any amount of time will gather that nothing that breaks the status quo usually stays permanent, bit ESPECIALLY a hero turning into a villain. But what he said ib the interview didn't line up with what took place. Cap didn't win, not in any real capacity. To say Cap won would be like trying to say that malekith won in wotr.

And no, I didn't"fall for the event hype" because I gave zero ishts about it outside of what I saw with T'Challa being involved. I'm well aware of how Marvel hypes up events and frankly they use the same slogan " the Mu will never be the same!! Earth shattering event that will change the Mu forever!!" Same stuff here, abd it had potential to be good, but it fell flat numbers show it.

In the end it doesn't matter. He did the same thing Ewing did with ultimates, said one thing on a interview and did something different in the comic. The end

[Ezyo1000]

AVENGERS #36
JUL200672
(W) Jason Aaron (A) Javi Garron (CA) Matteo Scalera
THE AGE OF KHONSHU PRESENTS THE FIGHT OF THE CENTURY!
Moon Knight versus the Black Panther-for the fate of reality.
Rated T+
In Shops: Sep 30, 2020
SRP: $3.99

One can hope thst JA will do right with T'Challa and have him get the W without some frakkery, have him win on his own, solo, no outside help, no DW or secret wars isht. Just have a good fight (since mk is amped up) and get the win and a few more feats

[Dariel81]

One can hope thst JA will do right with T'Challa and have him get the W without some frakkery, have him win on his own, solo, no outside help, no DW or secret wars isht. Just have a good fight (since MK is amped up) and get the win and a few more feats

MK is a very formidable foe but if Tchalla needs outside help defeating him
I'm going to be upset.

[XPac]

Again, if you actually read what I said instead of inserting your own assessments and then answering those as if they were my own. I took Spencer's own quote, abd then compared it to what actually takes place. OBVIOUSLY ( don't know how many times I ha e to say this) Cap wasn't going to remain evil indefinitely, or take over the us indefinitely, anybody who reads comics for any amount of time will gather that nothing that breaks the status quo usually stays permanent, bit ESPECIALLY a hero turning into a villain. But what he said ib the interview didn't line up with what took place. Cap didn't win, not in any real capacity. To say Cap won would be like trying to say that malekith won in wotr.

And no, I didn't"fall for the event hype" because I gave zero ishts about it outside of what I saw with T'Challa being involved. I'm well aware of how Marvel hypes up events and frankly they use the same slogan " the Mu will never be the same!! Earth shattering event that will change the Mu forever!!" Same stuff here, abd it had potential to be good, but it fell flat numbers show it.

In the end it doesn't matter. He did the same thing Ewing did with ultimates, said one thing on a interview and did something different in the comic. The end

Cap did win... he just didn't win at the end of the story. He won at the start. Which is what bad guys often do. Hydra conquered the US. But obviously they heroes at the end of the story liberated it.

Spencer never said in the interview that Hydra would win FOREVER and you yourself are conceding that they wouldn't take over the US indefinately, so there shouldn't be an issue here. Arguing that Spencer changed the outcome of the story due to fan outrage is just silly considering the end result is EXACTLY the end result anyone should assume. The heroes didn't end up defeating Hydra because of fan outrage... they ended up defeating Hydra because in super hero stories the good guys beat the bad guys. Why would anyone NOT assume that would be the actual outcome of the story? If you honestly believed Hydra was wining at the end then yeah... Spencer to his credit did his job a little too well.

BOttom line being if there was no fan backlash we'd still get the ending we got... Avengers win, Hydra loses. Helen Keller could have seen that ending coming a mile away.

[XPac]

MK is a very formidable foe but if Tchalla needs outside help defeating him
I'm going to be upset.

It's an Avengers story, so theres always the possibility that beating the antagonist will be a group effort.

[Huntsman Spider]

It's an Avengers story, so theres always the possibility that beating the antagonist will be a group effort.

Fair enough, but since Black Panther is the leader of the Avengers at present, he should be able to take point in said effort.

[XPac]

Fair enough, but since Black Panther is the leader of the Avengers at present, he should be able to take point in said effort.

Given the cover and description, it's certainly being set up that way.

[Ezyo1000]

Cap did win... he just didn't win at the end of the story. He won at the start. Which is what bad guys often do. Hydra conquered the US. But obviously they heroes at the end of the story liberated it.

Spencer never said in the interview that Hydra would win FOREVER and you yourself are conceding that they wouldn't take over the US indefinately, so there shouldn't be an issue here. Arguing that Spencer changed the outcome of the story due to fan outrage is just silly considering the end result is EXACTLY the end result anyone should assume. The heroes didn't end up defeating Hydra because of fan outrage... they ended up defeating Hydra because in super hero stories the good guys beat the bad guys. Why would anyone NOT assume that would be the actual outcome of the story? If you honestly believed Hydra was wining at the end then yeah... Spencer to his credit did his job a little too well.

BOttom line being if there was no fan backlash we'd still get the ending we got... Avengers win, Hydra loses. Helen Keller could have seen that ending coming a mile away.

Read the quote from Spencer again. Of his idea of Actually winning was the same exact thing that happens on the regular with villains "winning" at the start then he needs to reevaluate the phrase and how it applies to doing something outside the norm. Again, saying Cap won is like saying malekith won because he got a early victory. That's not winning, and I highly doubt that's what Spencer meant when he said that in the interview. And me saying that Cap being evil and Hydra taking over the us wasn't going to be permanent is not the same as saying that how he talks about it, though OBVIOUSLY the change wasn't indefinite, it was likely going to last past the event. That's what you keep ignoring and trying to spin what I am saying. And where did I say I thought Hydra was winning at the end? Nowhere, again your making up stuff and then trying to use that as a basis for your counter argument.

In the end, personally I doubt it, there was a lot of potential with that story and how the event dragged I don't believe that was the intention to end it like that. But either way I don't care, so whatever.

[Ezyo1000]

MK is a very formidable foe but if Tchalla needs outside help defeating him
I'm going to be upset.

He better not. It's way past due for him to take point and get a solid complete badass flex