Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[MindofShadow]

I would argue the messiness was one of the things that made it interesting. I think Hudlin's retcon was a fun, bold take, but it made Wakanda less nuanced overall.

Messiness makes for good story telling.

Also makes things unique.

Making them 16 year olds was weird though lol.

I love all the fantasy tribal stuff. I don't care if it makes sense, it is cool as ****. Give me a waterfall fight to determine the king all day everyday.

What I liked about Priest's "messiness" was that it was Wakanda that was messy... not T'challa. It didn't diminish HIM, which is what I care abotu more than anything else easy.

A lot of the current Wakanda messiness seems to put it on T'challa's shoulders and make him look like Poo. IMHO

[Ezyo1000]

Yeah, batman writers can scale up Riddler and Penguin to be Darkseid level threats in Gotham ... but then they stop being Riddler and Penguin.The point being they want characters like Batman being able to scale up and down as needed.

Except that's not what I was saying at all. A threat doesn't have to be physical all the time. Abd I don't think anyone here would complain if killmonger, klaw, Achebe, and T'Challas other rogue's got some massive upgrades considering T'Challa consistently fights above his weight class all the time. T'Challa doesn't need to have a bunch of street level rogues since he isn't street level

[XPac]

Honestly I prefer Tchalla more as tactical fighting specialist and high field intellect warrior\king battle coach chess not checkers archetype. I feel like the tech aspect of his character should be balanced enough that it doesn't take away from his skill and powers, our guy is top 10 smartest earth mortals in the MU but also the most dangerous man alive. Tchalla to me doesn't seem like the character that would rely on tech unless he needs to in a situation that calls for it, someone in here said BP doesn't have anything to prove from a overall standpoint and i honestly agree because whether brains or skill BP is a threat either way and i honestly think whoever becomes the new writer on the next thing should find a middle ground highlighting these things. Better to find a balance than be one sided if you ask me.

And I think that's exactly what Priest was going for. Priests book even went out of its way to point out that T'Challa could have created Iron Man armor if he wanted to, but chose not to. Obviously Hudlins run retcons that as we do see him occasionally wear armor, but nonetheless I think Priest book did the best job of conveying the message that T'Challa is dangerous without the gear (Liss coming in a very close second). It's there to make like easier for him logistically ... but in most instances it's no there to do the fighting for him UNLESS it's an opponent that T'Challa has no business throwing hands with. If Thanos shows up, then yeah... use whatever gear you need to use. But for his regular rogues, a more minimalist approach I think actually makes him come off cooler. He can get the job done with freaking windex... that's about as bad @$$ as it gets.

[XPac]

Messiness makes for good story telling.

Also makes things unique.

Making them 16 year olds was weird though lol.

I love all the fantasy tribal stuff. I don't care if it makes sense, it is cool as ****. Give me a waterfall fight to determine the king all day everyday.

What I liked about Priest's "messiness" was that it was Wakanda that was messy... not T'challa. It didn't diminish HIM, which is what I care abotu more than anything else easy.

A lot of the current Wakanda messiness seems to put it on T'challa's shoulders and make him look like Poo. IMHO

Yeah, the 16 year old thing was completely unecessary. You can maybe justify it with real life historical or cultural reasons if you absolutely HAVE to, but I think using the movie approach of just making the Doras adult women just makes like easier for the BP franchise. No need to arm potential criticis with anymore ammuniction than you have to.

[Ezyo1000]

I think Priests gear was about right right. Force push is where the tech starts overshadowing his natural ability. Once the suit is essentially capable of doing the fighting for him, it's doing too much of the work.

Against a higher end threat that Tchalla has no business fighting hand to hand like the Hulk or whatever, it's great. But That's why I wouldn't use it with standard gear. Against a Mbaku or a Killmonger, it becomes more about the suit than the man. Any opponent he can believable face and beat WITHOUT the gear assisting him, he should fight without the gear really assisting him IMO to show that it's the man people need to worry about rather than the gear he's wearing. That became an issue when DP fought BP... Wade was literally scared to fight T'CHalla until he got a vibranium suit which leveled the playing field. The implication being he was more worried about the force push than T'Challas actual skill. That's the message we want to avoid. Have him beating people without the suit when possible so the credit goes where it belongs.

It's the same reason Batman shouldn't be wearing the suit he used to fight Superman against Bane or Killer Croc. Its overkill on paper. Batman should have it if necessary but it shouldn't be standard.

Thing is though, the force push scales according tl the threat so it's a none issue. The more damage he takes the faster it charges and the more devastation he deals back, less damage, slower build less devastation. It's pretty balanced actually. Bit the thing is, if a writer is lazy and uninspired, ANY gear can be over used and take away from skill. Like the season 1 of Coates could of been just as lazy if the Force push was replaced with the energy daggers and him shooting then at everything rather then getting up close. Frankly inspired writers will use the tech to compliment the character and lazy ones will rely heavily on it. See Coogler abd Narcisse for the former, and Coates for the latter.

If memory serves, I warned that might happen about 2 days after Coates first mentioned it in his blog.

Yeah, but Coates just sucks as a comic writer. I know you weren't impressed it, but you gotta admit, for a comic writer noob, Narcisse was able to show a hell of a lot more creativity with the tech T'Challa had and the force push then Coates, or alot fo other veteran comic writer's for that matter

[Ezyo1000]

I think Priests gear was about right right. Force push is where the tech starts overshadowing his natural ability. Once the suit is essentially capable of doing the fighting for him, it's doing too much of the work.

Against a higher end threat that Tchalla has no business fighting hand to hand like the Hulk or whatever, it's great. But That's why I wouldn't use it with standard gear. Against a Mbaku or a Killmonger, it becomes more about the suit than the man. Any opponent he can believable face and beat WITHOUT the gear assisting him, he should fight without the gear really assisting him IMO to show that it's the man people need to worry about rather than the gear he's wearing. That became an issue when DP fought BP... Wade was literally scared to fight T'CHalla until he got a vibranium suit which leveled the playing field. The implication being he was more worried about the force push than T'Challas actual skill. That's the message we want to avoid. Have him beating people without the suit when possible so the credit goes where it belongs.

It's the same reason Batman shouldn't be wearing the suit he used to fight Superman against Bane or Killer Croc. Its overkill on paper. Batman should have it if necessary but it shouldn't be standard.

And I think that's exactly what Priest was going for. Priests book even went out of its way to point out that T'Challa could have created Iron Man armor if he wanted to, but chose not to. Obviously Hudlins run retcons that as we do see him occasionally wear armor, but nonetheless I think Priest book did the best job of conveying the message that T'Challa is dangerous without the gear (Liss coming in a very close second). It's there to make like easier for him logistically ... but in most instances it's no there to do the fighting for him UNLESS it's an opponent that T'Challa has no business throwing hands with. If Thanos shows up, then yeah... use whatever gear you need to use. But for his regular rogues, a more minimalist approach I think actually makes him come off cooler. He can get the job done with freaking windex... that's about as bad @$$ as it gets.

O mean, of you want to get technical, though yes Hudlin did have T'Challa use light and thrice blessed armor, andf you break down the runs, T'Challa in Hudlins run used more "Natural skill" then tech in Hudlins run then Priests. Hudlin shows T'Challa use light armor 3 times abd thrice blessed twice. Out of all 5 sightings, light armor is actually used twice, once against Tony and once against doom, and thrice blessed os used only once. Daggers are used twice I believe, and gun disable tech is used twice too.

So if Priest is a minimalist then Hudlin really was more then him. Almost too much. Which is why I like McDuffies take because he mixed both versions perfectly

[XPac]

Thing is though, the force push scales according tl the threat so it's a none issue. The more damage he takes the faster it charges and the more devastation he deals back, less damage, slower build less devastation. It's pretty balanced actually. Bit the thing is, if a writer is lazy and uninspired, ANY gear can be over used and take away from skill. Like the season 1 of Coates could of been just as lazy if the Force push was replaced with the energy daggers and him shooting then at everything rather then getting up close. Frankly inspired writers will use the tech to compliment the character and lazy ones will rely heavily on it. See Coogler abd Narcisse for the former, and Coates for the latter.



Yeah, but Coates just sucks as a comic writer. I know you weren't impressed it, but you gotta admit, for a comic writer noob, Narcisse was able to show a hell of a lot more creativity with the tech T'Challa had and the force push then Coates, or alot fo other veteran comic writer's for that matter

It scales offensively. But defensively, if the suit can tank a blow from Namor than Killmonger may as well just go home because he's absolutely wasting his time trying to pick a fist fight with T'Challa. Of course a story will never work that way... that's just how it theoretically should work.

I'll say again, if T'Challa can beat an opponent without the gear then he simply shouldn't use it. It's fine against Hulk, who T'Challa shouldn't be fighting hand to hand. But against Man Ape, T'Challa IMO would use skill over tech. Having T'Challa use the suit against opponents that he can beat without the suit just means he's having the suit do the work for him.

[XPac]

O mean, of you want to get technical, though yes Hudlin did have T'Challa use light and thrice blessed armor, andf you break down the runs, T'Challa in Hudlins run used more "Natural skill" then tech in Hudlins run then Priests. Hudlin shows T'Challa use light armor 3 times abd thrice blessed twice. Out of all 5 sightings, light armor is actually used twice, once against Tony and once against doom, and thrice blessed os used only once. Daggers are used twice I believe, and gun disable tech is used twice too.

So if Priest is a minimalist then Hudlin really was more then him. Almost too much. Which is why I like McDuffies take because he mixed both versions perfectly

Fair point. For most of Hudlins run I frankly thought the suit was made of cloth. I believe the fight with Killmonger was the only time it was references as vibranium weave. And Hudlin did for the most part without the claws and energy daggers (I believe he used the energy daggers once with Hudlin in the FF story). So he arguably takes the cake as far as writing a minimalist BP.

But I think Hudlin for the most part simply had T'Challa punch out the bad guys. WHich is fine... nothing wrong with that. Priest often handled things in more elaborate ways while still using a fairly streamlined minimalistic toolset. There was just a lot more creativity to Priests handling, which I think really fit the character. Hudlins was more in the line of say a Captain America, while Priest had a more Batman vibe. But both worked... I just think Priests was a bit cooler.

[chief12d]

It scales offensively. But defensively, if the suit can tank a blow from Namor than Killmonger may as well just go home because he's absolutely wasting his time trying to pick a fist fight with T'Challa. Of course a story will never work that way... that's just how it theoretically should work.

I'll say again, if T'Challa can beat an opponent without the gear then he simply shouldn't use it. It's fine against Hulk, who T'Challa shouldn't be fighting hand to hand. But against Man Ape, T'Challa IMO would use skill over tech. Having T'Challa use the suit against opponents that he can beat without the suit just means he's having the suit do the work for him.

I truthfully don’t see why a writer can’t just upgrade the strength of T’Challa’s enemies without it being a big deal. All Killmonger would need to be put back on an even playing field is some bladed weaponry to cut along the grain of the suit. And his own advanced suit to tank kinetic energy enhanced strikes.

Man-Ape should be the same thing. He’s the second greatest warrior in Wakanda so he already has the skill to go blow for blow with T’Challa. Literally all he needs is what the MCU gave him, wood that’s been strengthened by vibranium energies that makes it able to contest the real thing. Give him wood armor and weaponry and they’re basically on the same level.

But I do think there needs to be more finesse with the Force Push than what we’ve seen so far. I’d much prefer that T’Challa more frequently channel kinetic energy to enhance his speed, agility, and strikes rather than using an omni-directional blast. It should be integrated more fluidly into his fighting style so it’s less about energy output and more about re-direction.

But overall I think it’s an excellent addition to his powers that needs to be followed up by upgrades to his rogues. Klaw had a decent showing recently and it doesn’t make much sense to not elevate other less powerful rogues with interesting abilities or counters to kinetic energy.

[Ezyo1000]

It scales offensively. But defensively, if the suit can tank a blow from Namor than Killmonger may as well just go home because he's absolutely wasting his time trying to pick a fist fight with T'Challa. Of course a story will never work that way... that's just how it theoretically should work.

I'll say again, if T'Challa can beat an opponent without the gear then he simply shouldn't use it. It's fine against Hulk, who T'Challa shouldn't be fighting hand to hand. But against Man Ape, T'Challa IMO would use skill over tech. Having T'Challa use the suit against opponents that he can beat without the suit just means he's having the suit do the work for him.

We have also seen that there's more than one way to get through the habit, cutting along the grains (need precision), choking him out, overloading the habit with continuous blasts, hacking it, melting it, and straight up taking a massive hit. So it requires the writer to be smarter about it than trying to simply out punch him and ignore the habit when convenient of the villain is weaker abd rather then trying to exploit the weakness or get around it. Since it's very much known at this point to the Mu what's it's capable of.

[Ezyo1000]

Fair point. For most of Hudlins run I frankly thought the suit was made of cloth. I believe the fight with Killmonger was the only time it was references as vibranium weave. And Hudlin did for the most part without the claws and energy daggers (I believe he used the energy daggers once with Hudlin in the FF story). So he arguably takes the cake as far as writing a minimalist BP.

But I think Hudlin for the most part simply had T'Challa punch out the bad guys. WHich is fine... nothing wrong with that. Priest often handled things in more elaborate ways while still using a fairly streamlined minimalistic toolset. There was just a lot more creativity to Priests handling, which I think really fit the character. Hudlins was more in the line of say a Captain America, while Priest had a more Batman vibe. But both worked... I just think Priests was a bit cooler.

I was simply comparing the difference. Frankly both versions are cool in their own right. I like the idea that sometimes T'Challa just needs to give someone a good ole fashion asswhooping without the mystery or letting himself appear to be beaten

[XPac]

I truthfully don’t see why a writer can’t just upgrade the strength of T’Challa’s enemies without it being a big deal. All Killmonger would need to be put back on an even playing field is some bladed weaponry to cut along the grain of the suit. And his own advanced suit to tank kinetic energy enhanced strikes.

Man-Ape should be the same thing. He’s the second greatest warrior in Wakanda so he already has the skill to go blow for blow with T’Challa. Literally all he needs is what the MCU gave him, wood that’s been strengthened by vibranium energies that makes it able to contest the real thing. Give him wood armor and weaponry and they’re basically on the same level.

But I do think there needs to be more finesse with the Force Push than what we’ve seen so far. I’d much prefer that T’Challa more frequently channel kinetic energy to enhance his speed, agility, and strikes rather than using an omni-directional blast. It should be integrated more fluidly into his fighting style so it’s less about energy output and more about re-direction.

But overall I think it’s an excellent addition to his powers that needs to be followed up by upgrades to his rogues. Klaw had a decent showing recently and it doesn’t make much sense to not elevate other less powerful rogues with interesting abilities or counters to kinetic energy.

There are two problems with Killmonger using his own advanced suit against T'Challa. Firstly, similar to the movie it becomes less about the skill of both men and more about their suits (one of the reasons why almost universally most people prefered their first fight to their second in the movie). Secondly, Killmonger doesn't have the intelligence or resources to compete with T'Challa in a battle over who has better gear. At best he can just steal T'Challa's stuff over and over again, but that's gonna get old pretty quick.

M'Baku getting some sort of magical suit does work better... though again I'd still say a man to man fight where they're seeing who is the better figther rather than who has the better suit is a more dramatic and satisfying confrontation. T'Challa proclaiming that his suit is better than M'Baku's just isn't the same. It's just not as personal or as satisfying IMO. It shouldn't be about their gear. THat's just placing the emphasis in the wrong direction. It works for Iron Man because having the fancier suit basically what his character is built around. But T'Challa should be handled differently.

His gear can scale up as needed, but it doesn't need to be on him 24/7 by default. Again, similar to Batman. He has access to gear which can help him fight Superman IF needed... but he doesn't go around wearing it when he's facing his rogues when he doesn't. If he or T'Challa can do it without they gear, they should. They have already proven they can, so using it is just a matter of making things easier for them. Which isn't necessary or preferable.

[XPac]

We have also seen that there's more than one way to get through the habit, cutting along the grains (need precision), choking him out, overloading the habit with continuous blasts, hacking it, melting it, and straight up taking a massive hit. So it requires the writer to be smarter about it than trying to simply out punch him and ignore the habit when convenient of the villain is weaker abd rather then trying to exploit the weakness or get around it. Since it's very much known at this point to the Mu what's it's capable of.

And that requires T'CHalla to constantly be taken by surprise by villains who have a means around his defenses which T'Challa isn't ready for. T'Challa should be the character one step ahead, prepped for the battle with better gear. Not the other way around.

In order for the story to work, villains have to constantly get around the suits defenses. And if that keeps happening it inevitably starts making the suit look bad, and T'Challa for not being able to anticipate their methods of getting around it. I'd frankly prefer it if T'CHalla simply didn't have the suit all the time. HIm being more vulnerable works just fine, because he's the one taking the villain by surprise instead of the other way around.

[Blind Wedjat]

Why are we suddenly acting like T'Challa hasn't ALWAYS been able to take blows from Namor and the Hulk before the suit had this Force Push ability?

[XPac]

Why are we suddenly acting like T'Challa hasn't ALWAYS been able to take blows from Namor and the Hulk before the suit had this Force Push ability?

Realistically when ANYONE taking real blows from a Hulk or Namor (when they aren't pulling their punches) who aren't at least Wrecking Crew level durably, it's just bad writing. Even a blow from Spider-Man should flat out kill a LOT of people if he were really trying. It does happen... we do occasionally see a Captain America or a Daredevil or a Batman take blows from class 100 guys, but it's utterly nonesense UNLESS they are legit holding back a LOT. Better writers who actually have a proper scale of these sort of things will have a Black Panther or a Daredevil dodge an attack rather than tanking it.