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  1. #4306
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    It wasn't racial tension but when T'Challa brought his first girlfriend (Monica) over during McGregor's run some Wakandans didn't approve.
    I think it's a question of whether or not xenophobia qualifies as racism. By strict definition the terms aren't completely synonimous. Though it's probably fair to argue in practice there's a fair amount of overlap.

  2. #4307
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I think it's a question of whether or not xenophobia qualifies as racism. By strict definition the terms aren't completely synonimous. Though it's probably fair to argue in practice there's a fair amount of overlap.
    In the case of the Wakandans though we know that they tend to look at all outsiders the same. Even in the Coates run when T'Challa calls on the Crew to help him out he says that Wakandans consider themselves a race unto themselves. That's obviously metaphorical but goes to show just how separate they think they are from the rest of the world.

    I don't think they have a particular racial animus against anyone as they've reacted to Monica the same they've acted to Storm (who despite being half black American was raised in nearby Kenya). Though ideally we'd be able to see those attitudes change at least among some pockets of their society. Like if T'Challa is making any movement towards his goal of opening up Wakanda you'd think that people who's formative years were in his reign would be more open-minded. That's part of the reason I kinda liked the party princess characterization of Shuri.

  3. #4308
    Invincible Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Common Writer View Post
    T'Challa has always been defined by his relationship to his nation. Wakanda is not just setting, it its own character.
    No more than Thor and Asgard/Midgard.
    Black Panther Discord Server: https://discord.gg/SA3hQerktm

    T'challa's Greatest Comic Book Feats: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.c...her-feats.html

  4. #4309
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Common Writer View Post
    T'Challa has always been defined by his relationship to his nation. Wakanda is not just setting, it its own character.

    Wakanda is just as much of a character in BP as the USS Enterprise was in Star Trek. And I know some grown men who've cried watching the Enterprise blow up in Star Trek III and you probably do too.

    The franchise can barley get a supporting character off of the ground because most of the supporting characters in BP are just staff members of the Royal Palace who they live to serve their king. The only time when they open their mouths is through board meetings and mission briefings where everyone either speaks in either military jargon or philosophy. Which leads to Okoye sounding exactly like Nakia who also sounds exactly like Shuri.

    We need more to Black Panther than C-SPAN. We need a writer who can bring a sense of atmosphere to Wakanda. It needs to feel like a community, a living, breathing place where the reader would actually feel invested in. So when Wakanda is on the brink of danger, the reader would feel the sense of urgency when it comes time for BP to defend it.
    The reason supporting cast members can't get off the ground is because they are too busy using T'Challa as a stepping stool to try and prop them up and talk isht about T'Challa. That's what BP WOW did, that's what's the Shuri book did. And why did those all fail? Because they all try and put him down to make them look good.

  5. #4310
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Hudlin's costume for the MOST part just seemed like cloth. If the idea Hudlin was trying to potray was that it was vibranium weave, I don't think the art or the writing did a very good job of conveying that EXCEPT in the Killmonger fight. We probably saw more usage of Priests gear in Yosts Worlds Apart mini and in Geoffs Avengers than we did in Hudlins near half decade run.

    Attachment 98046

    Again, I'm not inherently against Hudlins decision to downplay the tech and vibranium suit. I just don't agree he is a good example of a writer who incorporates previously established tech and gear.
    Covers dot count. And Priests version looked like cloth too, that's hardly a argument since it didn't take on the more armor like look till way later.

  6. #4311
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Covers dot count. And Priests version looked like cloth too, that's hardly a argument since it didn't take on the more armor like look till way later.
    It may at times looked like cloth at times, but the books made it very very clear his costume was vibranium weave. He used gear and tech relatively often and very very well. No one before or since has done a better job of establishing the characters standard gear in a meaningful way.

    Hudlin still had Tchalla use tech as needed, but he basically eliminated any standard gear.
    Last edited by XPac; 06-29-2020 at 08:54 AM.

  7. #4312
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    It may at times looked like cloth at times, but the books made it very very clear his costume was vibranium weave. He used gear and tech relatively often and very very well. No one before or since has done a better job of establishing the characters standard gear in a meaningful way. And eliminating standard gear would mean it was gone. It wasn't, he used it on several occasions, it just wasn't the focus.

    Hudlin still had Tchalla use tech as needed, but he basically eliminated any standard gear.
    Hudlin established T'Challas martial arts prowess imo better than Priest, which isn't a knock on Priest at all, infact it's actually very close since they both have some great action set pieces. But even when he used the tech Hudlin used it to great effect. Not unorthodox methods but still great. And again Hudlin established it was a vibranium weave ad well

  8. #4313
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Hudlin established T'Challas martial arts prowess imo better than Priest, which isn't a knock on Priest at all, infact it's actually very close since they both have some great action set pieces. But even when he used the tech Hudlin used it to great effect. Not unorthodox methods but still great. And again Hudlin established it was a vibranium weave ad well
    Like I said, Hudlin used tech ... but he basically eliminated it as standard gear. He will use tech as needed, but it was a departure from what Priest did and to a degree what we're seeing now.

    And was issue was it even mentioned that his suit was vibranium weave. 38? I think it was literally his last issue in the 4th volume. At best he's using Priests gear as after thoughts, as opposed to helping really establish it.

  9. #4314
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Like I said, Hudlin used tech ... but he basically eliminated it as standard gear. He will use tech as needed, but it was a departure from what Priest did and to a degree what we're seeing now.

    And was issue was it even mentioned that his suit was vibranium weave. 38? I think it was literally his last issue in the 4th volume. At best he's using Priests gear as after thoughts, as opposed to helping really establish it.
    Yeah but throughout the entire time he doesn't really get hit so it doesn't matter too much. And yeah it was different, i feel like of Priest rub hadn't taken place, he likely would of spent more time establishing tech, but really I didn't feel like it was too bad, sure maybe earlier on he could of thrown some more tech in but he did a great job of establishing T'Challa the man in terms of how dangerous he was. Towards the end of Priest run his tech sometimes felt almost to much the focus. But again this all doesn't matter too much. Frankly I would prefer someone to go McDuffies route. He had the 2 steps ahead of Priest, with the hardcore nature of Hudlin which imo is my most preferred

  10. #4315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Hudlin established T'Challas martial arts prowess imo better than Priest, which isn't a knock on Priest at all, infact it's actually very close since they both have some great action set pieces. But even when he used the tech Hudlin used it to great effect. Not unorthodox methods but still great. And again Hudlin established it was a vibranium weave ad well
    In BP's first Avengers tour, Buscema experimented with some combat poses that were reminiscent of a pouncing jungle cat. Avengers V1.59 stands out in my memory as an example of it...
    Image.jpg
    ...hate I couldn't conveniently find an image of the specific panels. It always struck me as a neat idea that The Black Panthers might train in a unique martial art that was perhaps rooted in their spiritual connection to The Panther God. It's not like nobody else ever pursued similar imagery or ideas, but I don't recall it being a center-piece of BP lore and it would have been neat.

  11. #4316
    Astonishing Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    In BP's first Avengers tour, Buscema experimented with some combat poses that were reminiscent of a pouncing jungle cat. Avengers V1.59 stands out in my memory as an example of it...
    Image.jpg
    ...hate I couldn't conveniently find an image of the specific panels. It always struck me as a neat idea that The Black Panthers might train in a unique martial art that was perhaps rooted in their spiritual connection to The Panther God. It's not like nobody else ever pursued similar imagery or ideas, but I don't recall it being a center-piece of BP lore and it would have been neat.
    I think there was one point in Hudlin's run that there was mention of a specific fighting style only known to and practiced by members of the Wakandan Royal family so maybe that's it?

    But really I think in those very early days before Priest wrote the character, T'Challa's fighting style felt very freestyled and purposely over the top and jungle cat like because those were the aspects of the character they wanted to emphasise more than anything else, almost to a fault really. You had that for pretty much every acrobatic character like Daredevil, Spider-Man, and Beast. Even when writing martial arts characters like Shang-Chi and Iron Fist (who were really just Bruce Lee pastiches or parodies) the fighting style was drawn to be almost caricaturist. I don't think artists then had a good idea on how to depict martial arts fighting.

    I might be wrong about it but it seems it was Priest that first decided to write T'Challa more as a serious kind of martial artist and incorporated the popular fighting styles of the 90s era into the character. But like many things involving Black Panther I have a complicated view on how his martial arts abilities should be handled. But I'm not sure if I want to talk about that yet.

  12. #4317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    It wasn't racial tension but when T'Challa brought his first girlfriend (Monica) over during McGregor's run some Wakandans didn't approve.
    Or Black Panther's step mother and STEP sister Shuri. They were not Wakandans but from elsewhere. The movie made them into biological siblings.


    How come Batman can have those qualities and be LOVED by the comic fan boys but it T'Challa has the same qualities he's a Mary Sue or "Boring"????

    Awwww....who am I kidding? I know that the majority of BP/T'Challa fans in this message board ALREADY KNOW the answer to THAT question.

    A black man who does that is viewed as a threat. Because when you sit back and look at it-most black male characters when written to potential can wipe the floor with Batman, take his woman and make Damian bring him his slippers.

    We get watered down to make certain fandom feel better.

    See Cyborg, Black Lightning, Jason Rusch, Mr Terrific, John Stewart and even Vixen.

    Or here with Coates Panther, X-office's treatment of Storm, Synch, Bishop and Blue Marvel. heck even Miles, Night Thrasher and Monica.

    Yes folks are tired of Bat God. Issue is that has not stop Batman books from being ordered.

    See he can have 100K books ordered and collect dust on selves and ZERO complaints. Panther and anyone of color can't. Because those 3 unsold BP WOW are shutting stores down way faster than that large pile of white iconic male lead books.

  13. #4318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    ...like many things involving Black Panther I have a complicated view on how his martial arts abilities should be handled. But I'm not sure if I want to talk about that yet.
    Love to hear your thoughts about it at some point, but respecting your space in the here and now.

  14. #4319
    Extraordinary Member Cville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Or Black Panther's step mother and STEP sister Shuri. They were not Wakandans but from elsewhere. The movie made them into biological siblings.





    A black man who does that is viewed as a threat. Because when you sit back and look at it-most black male characters when written to potential can wipe the floor with Batman, take his woman and make Damian bring him his slippers.

    We get watered down to make certain fandom feel better.

    See Cyborg, Black Lightning, Jason Rusch, Mr Terrific, John Stewart and even Vixen.

    Or here with Coates Panther, X-office's treatment of Storm, Synch, Bishop and Blue Marvel. heck even Miles, Night Thrasher and Monica.

    Yes folks are tired of Bat God. Issue is that has not stop Batman books from being ordered.

    See he can have 100K books ordered and collect dust on selves and ZERO complaints. Panther and anyone of color can't. Because those 3 unsold BP WOW are shutting stores down way faster than that large pile of white iconic male lead books.
    Half sister. Shuri is Tchakas' daughter.

    Unless you want to start some palace intrigue and start a rumor that Changemire is Shuris' father. Lol.
    Last edited by Cville; 06-29-2020 at 12:30 PM.

  15. #4320
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Yeah but throughout the entire time he doesn't really get hit so it doesn't matter too much. And yeah it was different, i feel like of Priest rub hadn't taken place, he likely would of spent more time establishing tech, but really I didn't feel like it was too bad, sure maybe earlier on he could of thrown some more tech in but he did a great job of establishing T'Challa the man in terms of how dangerous he was. Towards the end of Priest run his tech sometimes felt almost to much the focus. But again this all doesn't matter too much. Frankly I would prefer someone to go McDuffies route. He had the 2 steps ahead of Priest, with the hardcore nature of Hudlin which imo is my most preferred
    If using something once in like half a decade qualifies as standard gear, then I think your bar is a bit lower than mine. If Priest had the character use his gear during his run that infrequently we wouldn't be talking about it today.

    If you want stuff showing up in movies and on the toy shelves of Walmart, a bit more effort is needed. This stuff needs to both appear at least semi-frequrntly and be used semi-frequently. Legitimate world building takes effort.

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