Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[charliehustle415]

The core tenant of Wakanda has always been that is has never been conquered.

Even before Hudlin's retcon... it still wasn't ever conquered. It wasn't a technological powerhouse... but it still was not conquered. They still isolated and killed anyone that messed with them. Hudlin just made it more believable by giving them superior tech from the beginning.

Wakanda should never have been allowed to be defeated in Marvel comics unless it was an event that EVOLVED AROUND T'CHALLA. And immediately when that event ended, T'challa's book should had revolved around Wakanda coming to terms with taking an L... and turning around and becoming scarier than ever. Other countries/villians would have saw Wakanda has finally being weakened, licked their chops, and then found out T'challa was still there, the Wakandans are still there lead by their warrior king, and this is what happens when you invade Wakanda.

This doesn't mean Wakanda is some utopia (which is usually the argument coming). It just means, in war, they win. It is what they do.

Exactly this, moreover, what is wrong with Wakanda being a Uptopia? Why can't Wakanda be a bastion for the children of Africa? I mean hell even mutants have Krakoa and before that they had Genosha before it was wiped out

[Ezyo1000]

The core tenant of Wakanda has always been that is has never been conquered.

Even before Hudlin's retcon... it still wasn't ever conquered. It wasn't a technological powerhouse... but it still was not conquered. They still isolated and killed anyone that messed with them. Hudlin just made it more believable by giving them superior tech from the beginning.

Wakanda should never have been allowed to be defeated in Marvel comics unless it was an event that EVOLVED AROUND T'CHALLA. And immediately when that event ended, T'challa's book should had revolved around Wakanda coming to terms with taking an L... and turning around and becoming scarier than ever. Other countries/villians would have saw Wakanda has finally being weakened, licked their chops, and then found out T'challa was still there, the Wakandans are still there lead by their warrior king, and this is what happens when you invade Wakanda.

This doesn't mean Wakanda is some utopia (which is usually the argument coming). It just means, in war, they win. It is what they do.

This is what pissed me off the most, Wakanda took Ls and T'Challa to as not at the focus of the event. It was more collateral damage and that not what Wakanda is. They don't just get wrecked because they were in the way. Wakanda is the place that most villains no matter who they are, would go "Yeah I ain't frakking with that place. I'll just leave them alone and they will leave us alone. Fighting then would just invite heavy losses and resources."

That's what being an unconquered warrior nation for 10k years should be, abd when Wakanda does finally take that L, it's accompanied by a grand spectacular display that they went down fighting and they fought hard. The enemy they lost to squeaked the victory out and they just as easily could of lost as it was a hairsbreadth away.

That's how I would do it if I had to write a story about Wakanda losing. Infact, Wakanda losing would set the ball in motion for the big bad to be defeated. Abd who would be leading that defeat would be T'Challa, commanding and executing his contingencies before dipping off on some grandmaster chess player isht to best the big bad. And part of that contingency would be for Wakanda to "lose" (as in they didn't actually get defeated but made the world think they did to usurp the bad)

[XPac]

Exactly this, moreover, what is wrong with Wakanda being a Uptopia? Why can't Wakanda be a bastion for the children of Africa? I mean hell even mutants have Krakoa and before that they had Genosha before it was wiped out

We probably should wait and see how Krakoa turns out in the end before we decide we want Wakanda treated that way, because I'm pretty sure by the end of Hickman's run it won't be pretty.

As far as utopia goes, the reason we don't really get that in fiction (let alone in the super hero genre) because it's hard to tell stories in Utopia. All fiction needs conflict, but the super hero genre especially needs crime. Wakanda can still be an overall nice place most of the time... but it still needs bad people doing bad things in order to give the actual super hero stuff to do.

[MindofShadow]

Exactly this, moreover, what is wrong with Wakanda being a Uptopia? Why can't Wakanda be a bastion for the children of Africa? I mean hell even mutants have Krakoa and before that they had Genosha before it was wiped out

Because it is super hero comics. Gotta have conflict somewhere.

Plus, there are multiple tribes with multiple ideas. Even multiple gods. They have a resource people want from all over the universe. There is going to be conflict.

You can still be a bastion without being perfect.

[charliehustle415]

We probably should wait and see how Krakoa turns out in the end before we decide we want Wakanda treated that way, because I'm pretty sure by the end of Hickman's run it won't be pretty.

As far as utopia goes, the reason we don't really get that in fiction (let alone in the super hero genre) because it's hard to tell stories in Utopia. All fiction needs conflict, but the super hero genre especially needs crime. Wakanda can still be an overall nice place most of the time... but it still needs bad people doing bad things in order to give the actual super hero stuff to do.

Because it is super hero comics. Gotta have conflict somewhere.

Plus, there are multiple tribes with multiple ideas. Even multiple gods. They have a resource people want from all over the universe. There is going to be conflict.

You can still be a bastion without being perfect.

I understand there needs to be conflict, but a Utopian country can have external conflict while still maintaining their status quo.

A Utopian Wakanda against a external conflict is ripe for story telling - I mean isn't that what Earth was in Star Trek, a Utopian Earth vs external threats?

[The Cool Thatguy]

Exactly this, moreover, what is wrong with Wakanda being a Uptopia? Why can't Wakanda be a bastion for the children of Africa? I mean hell even mutants have Krakoa and before that they had Genosha before it was wiped out

I'd hardly count Genosha as a utopia, at any time in its history

[dkrook]

The core tenant of Wakanda has always been that is has never been conquered.

Even before Hudlin's retcon... it still wasn't ever conquered. It wasn't a technological powerhouse... but it still was not conquered. They still isolated and killed anyone that messed with them. Hudlin just made it more believable by giving them superior tech from the beginning.

Wakanda should never have been allowed to be defeated in Marvel comics unless it was an event that EVOLVED AROUND T'CHALLA. And immediately when that event ended, T'challa's book should had revolved around Wakanda coming to terms with taking an L... and turning around and becoming scarier than ever. Other countries/villians would have saw Wakanda has finally being weakened, licked their chops, and then found out T'challa was still there, the Wakandans are still there lead by their warrior king, and this is what happens when you invade Wakanda.

This doesn't mean Wakanda is some utopia (which is usually the argument coming). It just means, in war, they win. It is what they do.

210% Agreement!

[charliehustle415]

I'd hardly count Genosha as a utopia, at any time in its history

Even pre-Cassandra Nova sentinel attack? It looked pretty chill right before it was decimated

[XPac]

I understand there needs to be conflict, but a Utopian country can have external conflict while still maintaining their status quo.

A Utopian Wakanda against a external conflict is ripe for story telling - I mean isn't that what Earth was in Star Trek, a Utopian Earth vs external threats?

Star Trek was arguably the closest thing we've ever gotten to an utopian earth... but overtime we did start to see the cracks below the surface. Deep Space Nine (arguably the best of the modern day Star Trek shows) started showing that Star Fleet like everyone else had a darker underbelly. It was smaller and better hidden, but still there. Flash foreward to Picard and I think that Utopian label is pretty much gone.

As far as Wakanda... if you eliminate internal conflict you eliminate things like M'Baku and Killmonger. You gotta have a little of both to make it feel more personal. Because T'Challa is a king, there is an inherent political aspect to his character even in super hero fiction which I think draws in a lot of writers to the notion of internal problems that he needs to deal with as a ruler.

If you only deal with external conflicts and none of the external conflicts are actually powerful enough to beat you, after a certain point it sort of becomes tougher feel as though any of the stories really have stakes. Fiction inherently is about generating conflict for the hero to overcome.

[dkrook]

I understand there needs to be conflict, but a Utopian country can have external conflict while still maintaining their status quo.

A Utopian Wakanda against a external conflict is ripe for story telling - I mean isn't that what Earth was in Star Trek, a Utopian Earth vs external threats?

Too bad you can't I instruct this to writers. Its a great point. They should be able incorporate awesome stories with T'challa having all kinds of internal struggles and then you have a whole open field of stories you can tell about T'challa dealing with super powered villains, mutants, and magic. Sure throw in there stuff about conflict with deities of the region using the people as their own pawns in warfare. All this without having to destroy Wakanda and writing them as weak.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Even pre-Cassandra Nova sentinel attack? It looked pretty chill right before it was decimated

I don't think 'not on fire' constitutes a Utopia

[The Cool Thatguy]

Star Trek was arguably the closest thing we've ever gotten to an utopian earth... but overtime we did start to see the cracks below the surface. Deep Space Nine (arguably the best of the modern day Star Trek shows) started showing that Star Fleet like everyone else had a darker underbelly. It was smaller and better hidden, but still there. Flash foreward to Picard and I think that Utopian label is pretty much gone.

As far as Wakanda... if you eliminate internal conflict you eliminate things like M'Baku and Killmonger. You gotta have a little of both to make it feel more personal. Because T'Challa is a king, there is an inherent political aspect to his character even in super hero fiction which I think draws in a lot of writers to the notion of internal problems that he needs to deal with as a ruler.

If you only deal with external conflicts and none of the external conflicts are actually powerful enough to beat you, after a certain point it sort of becomes tougher feel as though any of the stories really have stakes. Fiction inherently is about generating conflict for the hero to overcome.

Yeah, pretty much. We've grown pretty cynical since the 1980s.

Every Utopia gets torn down or shade thrown at it. Star Trek, Wonder Woman's, etc.

[XPac]

Too bad you can't I instruct this to writers. Its a great point. They should be able incorporate awesome stories with T'challa having all kinds of internal struggles and then you have a whole open field of stories you can tell about T'challa dealing with super powered villains, mutants, and magic. Sure throw in there stuff about conflict with deities of the region using the people as their own pawns in warfare. All this without having to destroy Wakanda and writing them as weak.

I would agree Wakanda, and fictional cities in general, get destroyed too often in big comic book events. It's like it's some thing on a check list a writer needs to check off in order for an event to feel more epic or whatever.

But as far as Wakanda looking weak... I think there's more to it than that. I think in comic book fiction especially, the good guys often do need to come off weaker than the bad guys at some point in the story in order for the story to properly progress. If the bad guys can't flat out beat the good guys at any point, they're dead in the water... so the good guys should take some L's at least in big stories before they finally win in the end. If the good guys at no point are weaker than the bad guys in the story, then the good guys overcoming the bad guys really doesn't mean anything. And if Wakanda happens to be on the good guys side (which is more and more the case as T'Challa's star rises and he becomes a bigger player in the grand scheme of things), it means Wakanda will at times for bigger stories have to be unable to over the bad guys at least at some point.

I do think are are attempts at making Wakanda NOT look weak by marvel though. It took multiple attempts by Thanos forces to overcome Wakanda, when everyone else basically lost round 1 in Infinity. And it likewise took Hydra 3 attempts to take down Wakanda, when the US at the bulk of the hero community was defeated by Hydra at the end of the very first issue. So while Wakanda is receiving loses, they are protected loses in that sense. Even in the MCU, Wakanda was the last place to lose it's infinity stone and it took a fully powered Thanos to do it.

So while Wakanda is no longer unbeatable, in the least it's pretty much harder to beat than anyone else. I know that's not as much as many would like, but it's something.

[chief12d]

Wakanda makes a brief appearance in the Empyre: X-Men tie in. The X-Men are in Genosha dealing with a zombie army accidentally created by Scarlet Witch. Turns out the Cotati are also trying to use the island for a launching point for an invasion of Wakanda. We just see a map of Africa with the kingdom located in the wrong place but it's something lol.

Interestingly, the Cotati seem to know about vibranium and have their own name for it. Even in the FF tie-in to Empyre, the Elder of the Universe knew about vibranium and wanted to take it from Thing. I like that it's a seems to be known to the wider universe. Let's hope a BP writer gets to tell the story of vibranium's origin and how it got to Wakanda .

[DigiCom]

There is also a brief mention in Empyre: Avengers #1, where we are told (but not shown)that Wakanda has a force-field capable of holding off an intergalactic invasion.

(They must have forgotten to plug it in when Venomonger attacked. Or the Originators. Or a dozen guys with guns...)