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  1. #5191
    Astonishing Member MoneySpider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Oh, trust me... I didn't casually forget the wisdom and knowledge they attempted to impart on T'Challa. I WISH I could forget, as I found it a little annoying after a point... but I didn't.

    Because T'Challa was clearly the smartest of the BP's by far, there was little to no gain from accessing their knowledge. Griot powers worked better for Shuri than T'CHalla since pre-movie synergy she wasnt super intelligent, so I could buy her powers helping her figure out what do it. BUt T'Challa didn't need it. He could figure stuff out without outside help.

    Though in all fairness, they TECHNICALLY were right when they got on his case about not blowing up the Great Societys earth. So I'll give them that. They were a bit annoying... but they weren't wrong.
    There was at least one previous Black Panther who knew how to levitate. I don't see T'Challa knowing how to do that without accessing that previous Black Panther's knowledge of how to levitate. And I'm not certain we know for sure that T'Challa was the smartest of all Black Panthers so far. There could have been other previous Black Panthers that also were geniuses in their time periods. Weren't there like 10,000 years worth of Black Panthers? A LOT of them could have been extremely smart.
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  2. #5192
    Astonishing Member dkrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Enhancing his strength with tech is not really different from enhancing if with kotd powers. Point being if he needs to be stronger for a given situation he can. Kotd powers not needed.

    But talking to previous BP is an okay addition. If all king if the dead did was that, it would be enough to justify it.
    T'challa had the ability to speak to previous BP's long ago. In Priest series there were 2 occasions. One when had them attack Mephisto when the former tried to take T'challa's soul in a bargain. Second time when Moon Knight was working with him for 2-3 books. The KOTD power upgrade, at the end of the day was kind of weak.

  3. #5193
    Fantastic Member XJlock's Avatar
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  4. #5194
    Astonishing Member MoneySpider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Sure he might be slightly superhuman instead of peak... but I think the overall point being that he's ROUGHLY the same. If you didn't read his formspring (and really 99.99% of the comic book readers didn't), you probably would have no idea that he was any stronger as no writers, Hickman included, really bothered writing him any different.

    Like I said, the line about him having the strength of the previous BP's was probably hyperbole in hindsight. I don't think he was meant to be taken literally. Or at least no one seemed to as far as I can tell.
    How can someone be "slightly" superhuman? To me it seems like either a character is a superhuman or they are not. Also, for Bast to tell T'Challa that he has the strength of all previous Black Panthers, but not really mean it doesn't make much sense to me. Because she told him that he had the knowledge, strength and experience of the previous Black Panthers. It would be odd for her to literally mean he had the knowledge and experience of previous BP's, but not the strength.
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  5. #5195
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoneySpider View Post
    Are meta-human and superhuman the same thing? Because Hickman clearly indicated that Black Panther was superhuman with the KOTD upgrade. He didn't say anything about Black Panther still being peak human.
    More or less, though metahuman is DC Comics' catchall term for superpowered people in the DC Multiverse, while in Marvel, "metahuman" used to be a somewhat higher level on the power scale compared to "superhuman." For example, someone with superhuman strength might be in the Spider-Man ballpark of 10-25 tons, but someone with "metahuman" strength could be at least twice as strong as the superhuman maximum, if not more than that.
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  6. #5196
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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  7. #5197
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Oh, trust me... I didn't casually forget the wisdom and knowledge they attempted to impart on T'Challa. I WISH I could forget, as I found it a little annoying after a point... but I didn't.

    Because T'Challa was clearly the smartest of the BP's by far, there was little to no gain from accessing their knowledge. Griot powers worked better for Shuri than T'CHalla since pre-movie synergy she wasnt super intelligent, so I could buy her powers helping her figure out what do it. BUt T'Challa didn't need it. He could figure stuff out without outside help.

    Though in all fairness, they TECHNICALLY were right when they got on his case about not blowing up the Great Societys earth. So I'll give them that. They were a bit annoying... but they weren't wrong.
    Being a polymath genius does not automatically mean that there is nothing to gain from the wisdom of others even of they aren't super geniuses themselves. In fact what you just said strengthens my case for why it should of been expanded on. EVERYBODY no matter how smart they are, can learn something from someone else's knowledge and experiences. And from a super heroes comic standpoint? That is a gold mine of potential to utilize also about the whole hyperbole of how strong T'Challa is, well.. that's the fault of Hickman for not clarifying how strong he was after the power up. Abd considering in tro T'Challa was straight up knocking down foes of class 100 strength up to cosmic level? One would guess that he was stronger then before, especially since those fights weren't prep based. He was straight up going toe to toe.

    Again kotd, like Shadow physics, was a home run of potential that struck out

  8. #5198
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Being a polymath genius does not automatically mean that there is nothing to gain from the wisdom of others even of they aren't super geniuses themselves. In fact what you just said strengthens my case for why it should of been expanded on. EVERYBODY no matter how smart they are, can learn something from someone else's knowledge and experiences. And from a super heroes comic standpoint? That is a gold mine of potential to utilize also about the whole hyperbole of how strong T'Challa is, well.. that's the fault of Hickman for not clarifying how strong he was after the power up. Abd considering in tro T'Challa was straight up knocking down foes of class 100 strength up to cosmic level? One would guess that he was stronger then before, especially since those fights weren't prep based. He was straight up going toe to toe.

    Again kotd, like Shadow physics, was a home run of potential that struck out
    Sure, writers can decide to have T'Challa solve things by having answers given to him by previous BP's rather than figuring things out himself. That said, I'm cool with him figuring things out himself. He's done pretty well so far withouth the other BP's, so it didn't shock me all that much that he didn't really need their help all that much after he got the KotD powers.

    And if you got the impression that the KotD powers gave him the ability to go toe to toe with class 100 guys, then I think we really read Hickmans run differently. I honestly don't think he performed a single feat under Hickman that he theoretically couldn't have performe without Kotd.

  9. #5199
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoneySpider View Post
    How can someone be "slightly" superhuman? To me it seems like either a character is a superhuman or they are not. Also, for Bast to tell T'Challa that he has the strength of all previous Black Panthers, but not really mean it doesn't make much sense to me. Because she told him that he had the knowledge, strength and experience of the previous Black Panthers. It would be odd for her to literally mean he had the knowledge and experience of previous BP's, but not the strength.
    It's a foggy issue, because it's sort of difficult to determine exactly what is or isn't super human. By real world standards, Daredevil and Batman do things all the time which no regular human can do. But they're not considered superhuman by comic book standards.

    Captain America SOMETIMES is described as superhuman, and SOMETIMES not. Even marvel hasn't exactly made their mind up on that matter. And Black Panther is in a similar boat.

    In meta terms, the term PEAK human is when comic book writers try to have their cake and eat it too. THey're trying to say you're more than just human while still not advertising you as superhuman so you can get the benefits of both. You can say he's JUST a man doing this amazing stuff, while still trying to sound like more than a man. It's sort of a weird middle ground. Honestly I was a fan of the concept for Cap personally... but the issue overtime got confusing as marvel couldn't decide whether he was legit superhuman or not. Personally I'd probably say as far as strength goes, anything a ton or over is legit superhuman but below a ton is peak. But that's just my own estimate on the matter. I'm sure if you look hard enough you'll see guys who aren't super human lifting a ton plenty of times.

    As far as him having the knowledge and experiences of all the previous BP's ... I think that was just a fancy way for Bast to say he can talk to them. I don't literally believe he actually gained their knowledge per say, but rather he had the ability to acesss. He still had to ask them for information, so he didn't flat out know everything they know once he gained the KOTD powers.
    Last edited by XPac; 08-01-2020 at 10:42 PM.

  10. #5200
    Astonishing Member Ekie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoneySpider View Post
    Well, if having the "strength of every Black Panther that came before him" was accurate, his increased strength level would not be the result of technology. If another writer decided to explore this, it could really show Black Panther as being superhuman and not "heart-shaped herb peak human" strength level.

    Also, increasing his strength through the various strength levels of all previous Black Panthers could theoretically make him stronger than he would be if he tried to increase his strength through technological methods. Especially since we don't know exactly how strong some of the previous Black Panthers were. Some of them could have been BEASTS in terms of strength, theoretically. Imagine if Black Panther somehow managed to "stack" their strength levels. Unfortunately we don't know if he can even do that because Hickman left that "strength" thing vague. But I guess since it is vague, other writers can take the wheel and turn it into something awesome.
    The kotd clearly powered him to superhuman levels. How do i know this? The writer stated as much. There were instances showcasing his power and speed multiple times in the run. Black Swan doesn't get speed blitzed and one hit K.O.-ed by a peak human. Nor does Tchalla tank a phoenix powered namor blast. Just because people didnt get the huge payout we wanted isn't going to change the fact that the writer stated his power level and clearly stated it came from the previous panthers. If Bast wanted Hsh Tchalla then she would have let him take the herb. She said she needed something grrater than that....he said ok...and she made him into something greater...Her Champion.

  11. #5201
    Astonishing Member Ekie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Oh, trust me... I didn't casually forget the wisdom and knowledge they attempted to impart on T'Challa. I WISH I could forget, as I found it a little annoying after a point... but I didn't.

    Because T'Challa was clearly the smartest of the BP's by far, there was little to no gain from accessing their knowledge. Griot powers worked better for Shuri than T'CHalla since pre-movie synergy she wasnt super intelligent, so I could buy her powers helping her figure out what do it. BUt T'Challa didn't need it. He could figure stuff out without outside help.

    Though in all fairness, they TECHNICALLY were right when they got on his case about not blowing up the Great Societys earth. So I'll give them that. They were a bit annoying... but they weren't wrong.
    There's never little to gain from experience. Especially if some of those panthers know magic or various special skills as im sure some do.

  12. #5202
    Astonishing Member Ekie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Sure, writers can decide to have T'Challa solve things by having answers given to him by previous BP's rather than figuring things out himself. That said, I'm cool with him figuring things out himself. He's done pretty well so far withouth the other BP's, so it didn't shock me all that much that he didn't really need their help all that much after he got the KotD powers.

    And if you got the impression that the KotD powers gave him the ability to go toe to toe with class 100 guys, then I think we really read Hickmans run differently. I honestly don't think he performed a single feat under Hickman that he theoretically couldn't have performe without Kotd.

    He was physically in a fist fight with the black dwarf and said that he almost broke his hand fighting him. We can all agree that black dwarf is 100 tons and pretty durable. It sucks we didn't get to see the fight but we were told how it went. so if someone told you that black panther got into a fist fight with the hulk then that would sound really odd if you think that black panther is peak human. Yet He was in a fist fight vs someone with Hulk-like strength.

    If it might not have hit it out of the park but he definitely laid groundwork, elevated the charachers status, and defined Tchallas strength as superhuman. Not his fault it was followed up by goon slam gary moments.

    And why are we spending time even arguing that Panther could be peak human? David liss already stated he's peak human without the herb

  13. #5203
    Old-School Otaku DigiCom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Really, I think the only element of KotD which has any value at this point is the ability to talk to previous BP's. THough the spear Coates added potentially is handy. I sort of wish he explained it better though.
    Which he already had, and rarely needed, since the previous BP's act more like the comment section on a political site... lots of criticism, little real advice.

    And became redundant anyway, since Shuri's Griot powers did the same thing (INCLUDING the zombie control).

    As for the spear... like so much of Coates' run, it's a cool visual, but without any real substance.

  14. #5204
    Invincible Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    He could have beat BD using quickness, tech, his brain, and just a better fighting ability, nerve strikes, ect.

    BD was beaten but able to walk about holding his arm. I could easily infer that T'challa found a weakpoint their mid fight and repeatedly picked on his main arm via nerve strikes/precision hits/claws. Similar to say... Obi-Wan when he first fought Maul's brother. Or T'challa vs super skrulls. BD was a big brute dummy whose claim to fame is getting his brain smashed in within 3 pages.

    peak human, super human... it means nothing. Only feats matter in regards to how enhanced a character is. and T'challa is 100% comic book peak human... aka not spider-man. And that is just fine. He isn't the most dangerous man alive because one of the writers wrote on formspring that he is superhuman. Same platform the writer said that Doom wasn't the planet destroyer in the incursion story line lol.
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  15. #5205
    Invincible Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    Which he already had, and rarely needed, since the previous BP's act more like the comment section on a political site... lots of criticism, little real advice.

    And became redundant anyway, since Shuri's Griot powers did the same thing (INCLUDING the zombie control).

    As for the spear... like so much of Coates' run, it's a cool visual, but without any real substance.

    Griot is what everyone thought KOTD was going to be lol. Kinda ironic.
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