Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[MindofShadow]

To me it seems like either a character is a superhuman or they are not.

Because titles don't mean anything lol. That is why. It is all based on consistent top end feats.

Daredevil was supposed to be a trained ninja with advanced radar senses. So, like Netflix Daredevil really. Instead, based on feats, he is a damn bullet timer, consistently. "on paper" with labels he really isn't a big deal, on panel, dude swats bullets like it is tuesday.

[XPac]

He was physically in a fist fight with the black dwarf and said that he almost broke his hand fighting him. We can all agree that black dwarf is 100 tons and pretty durable. It sucks we didn't get to see the fight but we were told how it went. so if someone told you that black panther got into a fist fight with the hulk then that would sound really odd if you think that black panther is peak human. Yet He was in a fist fight vs someone with Hulk-like strength.

If it might not have hit it out of the park but he definitely laid groundwork, elevated the charachers status, and defined Tchallas strength as superhuman. Not his fault it was followed up by goon slam gary moments.

And why are we spending time even arguing that Panther could be peak human? David liss already stated he's peak human without the herb

We didn't actually see the fight, so we can only guess what happened. My interpretation (and it's only a guess) is he broke his hand hitting Black Dwarf and instead opted to use his energy knives to fight. We saw Dward was bleeding from his arms. Those aren't typical injuries from a fist fight. The nearly broken fist to me at least in an indicator this is NOT someone T'Challa wanted to stand there and trade blows with. So he instead used his gear.

Again, you might have interpreted it differently, but I don't believe the book in anyway was telling us T'CHalla was a class 100 guy. He fought the Great Societys version of Batman to a standstill. That was a fight we saw on panel. If we want to use AvX as an example, we also saw him fight Storm hand to hand. He was clearly holding back against her but struggled. When he fought Namor, he used the giant purple energy gloves instead of simply punching him... again using his gear.

Again, anything he did in theory could have been accomplished by the pre-KotD BP.

Not that this is decisive proof... but if he was greatly enhanced in strength, Ewing would have said so. He's probably the best continuity guy in comics since Busiek. Hickman and Coates might have been vague about it, but I don't think Ewing would have been.

[XPac]

Which he already had, and rarely needed, since the previous BP's act more like the comment section on a political site... lots of criticism, little real advice.

And became redundant anyway, since Shuri's Griot powers did the same thing (INCLUDING the zombie control).

As for the spear... like so much of Coates' run, it's a cool visual, but without any real substance.

Shuri got the power up that Shuri (at least pre-movie synergy) needed. She wasn't super smart like her brother (at the time) and didn't have any powers, so the Griot powers actually meant something in that they upgraded a person that needed the upgrade. Unlike T'Challa.

Course movie synergy changed the equation by making her a tech person. She's suddenly super smart and arguably in less need of powers. So in the end both characters arguably found the powerset redundent.

As far as the ability for T'Challa to talk to the dead... the funny thing is that in a lot of ways it's like a real person talking to their parents. He got a lot of annoying criticism that he didn't want to listen to... but in the end they were actually right and he should have listened. The ONLY time they gave him any council of any substance was to destroy the Great Societys worlds... but he couldn't do it.

I guess the other small bit of interaction was them asking why he didn't kill Namor yet... but T'Challa actually turned out to be right in that regard since Namor would be needed later ironincally to do what T'Challa couldn't at the urging of the other BP's.

But that's pretty much it. In large part their biggest asset was advising him to do something he already knew he needed to do anyways. And he still ended up not doing it, effectively making the power pretty useless.

[Mike_Murdock]

Only thing the KOTD powers have be shown to do, on panel is:

- return him to comic book peak human after he lost the BP title. (not needed anymore, as he is Black Panther/King again)

- Allowed him to command the zombies in Secret Wars

- Allowed him to talk to his dead ancestors.

- Maybe allowed him to summon that blue spear thing. This is unclear but considering it is the same color as the dead BP's, it is likely.

- Combined with Eden's powers, he was able to raise a force ghost army ala LotR to defend Wakanda against The People.


Nothing more, nothing less. Unless someone wants to post on panel proof of something I forgot.

Was the soul tracking thing from his King of the Dead stuff?

[Blind Wedjat]

Black Panther and Iron Fist pretty much have were eventually given the exact same "powers of previous mantle holders" thing. The difference between King of the Dead vs Immortal Iron Fist like all things is the execution.

Danny was actually given new powers. He could channel the Iron Fist through weapons. He learned how to use his chi through hypnosis. He could heal himself in a matter of seconds. He actually learned new techniques and as he put it, "infinite ways to kill a man." Not only that but his senses where further enhanced to the point that he could hear someone's sweat rolling down their cheek. He was faster and stronger than before.

King of the Dead hasn't really been shown to contribute that much. There's no evidence that suggests Black Dwarf was as strong or as tough as the Hulk, and neither did we see how T'Challa fought him. If we are to take evidence from the MCU, Spider-Man was of a similar strength level.

Likewise, T'Challa has been sending Namor flying with punches since Priest. T'Challa has been speedblisting since Priest. Knocking out Black Swan also doesn't say that much considering he's been knocking off the heads of Doombots (which are made of Titanium) since Hudlin.

Sure we got necromancy, but honestly I don't think that fits the character. Bast has never been a death goddess, in the comics and in real world myth. Likewise the character has never had that kind of association before.

Soul stalking is cool enough in concept, but T'Challa has never had to use it when he's been able to track people before with his physical senses and access to technology. Being able to stalk someone's soul is pointless if he only uses it for people who are alive and have no abilities to mask their scents or can evade technological surveillance. EMH did this right by giving T'Challa the ability to see hidden magical energies.

The soul/ghost spear thing is another thing that's fine in concept, but I think it leans too heavily on the side of mysticism and magic similar to Doctor Strange making mystical constructs. I think writers need to be careful how they balance T'Challa's raw skills, his (potentially mystically gifted) powers and scientific background. And if he's only using the spear to fight humans, then it makes no sense to have it.

Honestly, the only good power that came from King of the Dead was the ability to talk to past BPs without someone else helping him do that. The one time did something like that in Priest's run, Mephisto had taken him to the spirit world. It's the one power up I think that made sense and I think it's a good ability.

But really, King of the Dead didn't really mean that much. T'Challa suddenly didn't get exponentially better feats, most of the powers associated with it are stupid, and the name never made sense anyway. Killmonger is more of the death guy, considering he had an actual death cult. T'Challa being Bast's personal champion akin to Moon Knight is a cool idea that I actually think deserves exploring

[Ezyo1000]

Sure, writers can decide to have T'Challa solve things by having answers given to him by previous BP's rather than figuring things out himself. That said, I'm cool with him figuring things out himself. He's done pretty well so far withouth the other BP's, so it didn't shock me all that much that he didn't really need their help all that much after he got the KotD powers.

And if you got the impression that the KotD powers gave him the ability to go toe to toe with class 100 guys, then I think we really read Hickmans run differently. I honestly don't think he performed a single feat under Hickman that he theoretically couldn't have performe without Kotd.

Except I never said he said he would rely o. Them all the time, you know, it's possible or have a discussion without trying to constantly twist someones words. Yes T'Challa should figure things out himself as it's his book, but being a polymath genius doesn't mean he couldn't learn form the previous BPs, and I didn't say they have to give him the answers, as it's possible to gain wisdom from someone or something a d still figure it out yourself.

Abd yeah of you look at when T'Challa has fight guys with class 100 strength or cosmic guys in the past, he didn't go straight toe to toe, he would bring them down to his level and whoop their asses, on Hickman's book it's clear he isn't using prep like he normally would in those situations

[XPac]

Except I never said he said he would rely o. Them all the time, you know, it's possible or have a discussion without trying to constantly twist someones words. Yes T'Challa should figure things out himself as it's his book, but being a polymath genius doesn't mean he couldn't learn form the previous BPs, and I didn't say they have to give him the answers, as it's possible to gain wisdom from someone or something a d still figure it out yourself.

Abd yeah of you look at when T'Challa has fight guys with class 100 strength or cosmic guys in the past, he didn't go straight toe to toe, he would bring them down to his level and whoop their asses, on Hickman's book it's clear he isn't using prep like he normally would in those situations

The one fight we really got on panel against a class 100 guy in Hickmans fight was against Namor... and he clearly used prep. He didn't simply stand there and trade punches. He used his gear to fight. Black Dwarf was largely off panel. Against Terrax, it was largely off panel fight and he had the entire Illuminati with him. He fought powrerful people yes (though he's done that prior to KOTD), but he generated no actual feats in the process. Feats are tough to generate when again his fights were pretty much off panel.

Frankly T'Challa's best strength feat ever was probably the Surfer armbar and that was pre-KOTD. As far as a sheer strength feat goes, nothing he did in Hickmans run came even close to that. Had we seen something comparable, like him busting out a figure 4 leg lock against Black Dwarf or something then we might not be having this conversation.

[MoneySpider]

Black Panther and Iron Fist pretty much have were eventually given the exact same "powers of previous mantle holders" thing. The difference between King of the Dead vs Immortal Iron Fist like all things is the execution.

Danny was actually given new powers. He could channel the Iron Fist through weapons. He learned how to use his chi through hypnosis. He could heal himself in a matter of seconds. He actually learned new techniques and as he put it, "infinite ways to kill a man." Not only that but his senses where further enhanced to the point that he could hear someone's sweat rolling down their cheek. He was faster and stronger than before.

King of the Dead hasn't really been shown to contribute that much. There's no evidence that suggests Black Dwarf was as strong or as tough as the Hulk, and neither did we see how T'Challa fought him. If we are to take evidence from the MCU, Spider-Man was of a similar strength level.

Likewise, T'Challa has been sending Namor flying with punches since Priest. T'Challa has been speedblisting since Priest. Knocking out Black Swan also doesn't say that much considering he's been knocking off the heads of Doombots (which are made of Titanium) since Hudlin.

Sure we got necromancy, but honestly I don't think that fits the character. Bast has never been a death goddess, in the comics and in real world myth. Likewise the character has never had that kind of association before.

Soul stalking is cool enough in concept, but T'Challa has never had to use it when he's been able to track people before with his physical senses and access to technology. Being able to stalk someone's soul is pointless if he only uses it for people who are alive and have no abilities to mask their scents or can evade technological surveillance. EMH did this right by giving T'Challa the ability to see hidden magical energies.

The soul/ghost spear thing is another thing that's fine in concept, but I think it leans too heavily on the side of mysticism and magic similar to Doctor Strange making mystical constructs. I think writers need to be careful how they balance T'Challa's raw skills, his (potentially mystically gifted) powers and scientific background. And if he's only using the spear to fight humans, then it makes no sense to have it.

Honestly, the only good power that came from King of the Dead was the ability to talk to past BPs without someone else helping him do that. The one time did something like that in Priest's run, Mephisto had taken him to the spirit world. It's the one power up I think that made sense and I think it's a good ability.

But really, King of the Dead didn't really mean that much. T'Challa suddenly didn't get exponentially better feats, most of the powers associated with it are stupid, and the name never made sense anyway. Killmonger is more of the death guy, considering he had an actual death cult. T'Challa being Bast's personal champion akin to Moon Knight is a cool idea that I actually think deserves exploring

Black Panther punching Namor across the room in Priest's series is totally different than taking a hit from a Phoenix-powered Namor, though. At least to me it is. If Black Panther had taken a hit from a Phoenix-powered Namor with just the heart-shaped herb, Black Panther most likely would have died. Unless being powered by the Phoenix Force is no longer a big deal (which I think it is supposed to be).

[Ezyo1000]

He could have beat BD using quickness, tech, his brain, and just a better fighting ability, nerve strikes, ect.

BD was beaten but able to walk about holding his arm. I could easily infer that T'challa found a weakpoint their mid fight and repeatedly picked on his main arm via nerve strikes/precision hits/claws. Similar to say... Obi-Wan when he first fought Maul's brother. Or T'challa vs super skrulls. BD was a big brute dummy whose claim to fame is getting his brain smashed in within 3 pages.

peak human, super human... it means nothing. Only feats matter in regards to how enhanced a character is. and T'challa is 100% comic book peak human... aka not spider-man. And that is just fine. He isn't the most dangerous man alive because one of the writers wrote on formspring that he is superhuman. Same platform the writer said that Doom wasn't the planet destroyer in the incursion story line lol.

It is possible with BD, but then what about swan? Or terrax? For Namor? T'Challa isn't dumb enough to fight guys with class 100 strength in a straight fight. In not saying he is Spiderman level strength, but he did definitely is NOT peak human. At the very least he is enhanced because we have seen from liss run what peak T'Challa looks like

[XPac]

Black Panther punching Namor across the room in Priest's series is totally different than taking a hit from a Phoenix-powered Namor, though. At least to me it is. If Black Panther had taken a hit from a Phoenix-powered Namor with just the heart-shaped herb, Black Panther most likely would have died. Unless being powered by the Phoenix Force is no longer a big deal (which I think it is supposed to be).

Realistically speaking, the Phoenix can destroy planets. If Namor with a fifth of the Pnoenix has gone all out on his attack a Black Panther even with the KotD probably would have died. All the Avengers except maybe Thor probably would have. Realistically speaking a Phoenix powered Namor shouldn't need a tidal wave or an atlantean army to destroy the Avengers or Wakanda... even 1/5 of the power of a legit planet buster can easily destroy a nation the size of Jersy with minimal effort. But the P5 simply weren't written that way. My personal head canon is Namor was just holding back, but the meta reason is Wakanda and the Avengers weren't instantly destroyed simply because the writers obviously didn't want them to be. Comic book fights can't work that way.

[XPac]

It is possible with BD, but then what about swan? Or terrax? For Namor? T'Challa isn't dumb enough to fight guys with class 100 strength in a straight fight. In not saying he is Spiderman level strength, but he did definitely is NOT peak human. At the very least he is enhanced because we have seen from liss run what peak T'Challa looks like

Terrax fight was off panel, and he had the help of the entire Illuminati. Including guys like Namor, Black Bolt, and Iron Man who are physically as strong or stronger than Terrax. It's not like BP was standing there slugging it out with Terrax solo.

And with Namor he was clearly prepped for he fight and using his gear.

Black Swan I'll give you. He straight up knocked her out. But I'm doubtful she's anywhere close to class 100.

[MoneySpider]

Realistically speaking, the Phoenix can destroy planets. If Namor with a fifth of the Pnoenix has gone all out on his attack a Black Panther even with the KotD probably would have died. All the Avengers except maybe Thor probably would have. Realistically speaking a Phoenix powered Namor shouldn't need a tidal wave or an atlantean army to destroy the Avengers or Wakanda... even 1/5 of the power of a legit planet buster can easily destroy a nation the size of Jersy with minimal effort. But the P5 simply weren't written that way. My personal head canon is Namor was just holding back, but the meta reason is Wakanda and the Avengers weren't instantly destroyed simply because the writers obviously didn't want them to be. Comic book fights can't work that way.

Yet Black Panther took a direct fiery blast to his entire body from a Phoenix-powered Namor... but you don't think Namor was going all out in that scene when he hit Black Panther with that?

[XPac]

Yet Black Panther took a direct fiery blast to his entire body from a Phoenix-powered Namor... but you don't think Namor was going all out in that scene when he hit Black Panther with that?

Again, this is just my personal head canon... but no I don't think he was going all out when he hit Black Panther. The Phoenix force can destroy entire planets... if he was going all out, you're not going to be able to take a hit from even a fifth of that unless you're from the planet Krypton with an S on your chest. Nevermind a kotd powered T'Challa, a Phoenix powered Namor in theory should literally be able to destory a fifth of the entire planet if he's going all out.

But comic book fights don't work that way, and no one got hurt in a fight Namor theoretically should have been able to win instantly except Red Hulk who can heal.

[Blind Wedjat]

Black Panther punching Namor across the room in Priest's series is totally different than taking a hit from a Phoenix-powered Namor, though. At least to me it is. If Black Panther had taken a hit from a Phoenix-powered Namor with just the heart-shaped herb, Black Panther most likely would have died. Unless being powered by the Phoenix Force is no longer a big deal (which I think it is supposed to be).

Was he not wearing a Vibranium suit when that happened? We also don't know the comparative strength of that blast either. We don't know if Namor was actively trying to kill him with that attack or not (considering the character is very arrogant).

I mean look, if this is the hill to die on, then how is it that in New Avengers T'Challa was fighting on par with The Rider, who was essentially a Batman pastiche. Fighting on par. If T'Challa was not only enhanced but stronger than before, then he should have taken him out in seconds. Instead we had T'Challa stating that Rider could have eventually won the fight if it went on any longer.

This is my point: KOTD is simply not consistently shown to be what you're saying it is. It had potential. It still has potential, but nothing great has been realised from it.

[DigiCom]

Was the soul tracking thing from his King of the Dead stuff?

Possibly, or possibly a fusion of his metahuman senses and his latent ESP (that only shows up every once in a while). In any case, it was ALSO a cool visual that didn't amount to much.