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  1. #5416
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    Or they completely ignored the fact that Coates used the HZ in his run, just like everything else in it.
    The HZ were serving as the default Wakandan red shirts goes all the way back to Hickmans New Avengers run, so that's not a Coates thing. Course, it's entirly possible Zub ignored everything Wakandan related since then in comics... but either way it still kind of works since White Wolf and his HZ being independent of Wakanda is a real thing. Just a thing which has been ignored for a long long time.
    Last edited by XPac; 08-11-2020 at 08:32 AM.

  2. #5417
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    In my case, it's comparing the preview of Empyre: Avengers with last week's issue of the main book. Specifically, this page:



    "Where shall we use our amazing technology to fight the invaders?"

    "Nowhere. We must save it to protect Wakanda!"

    Back in Wakanda:

    "Retreat! Our pointy sticks have no effect!"

    And for an added bonus, the first panel of the Avengers preview has the Hatut Zeraze firearms being less effective than Asgardians with melee weapons. It's also revealed that they are now an "independent mercenary force loyal to T'Challa". Because Grace-Jones-looking chicks with spears are the only army Wakanda needs?
    Digi, my friend you have been at this game long enough to know the name of the game when it pertains to T'Challa (and most black superheroes) is tell don't show.

    Plus according to some, showing all that amazing technological firepower isn't necessary and a simple force field (folded to us, not shown being an effective defense) is enough technology to get the point across, anything else isnt necessary since the story demands it would fail anyways (even if that would not be the case since in the last empyre issue we were told, not shown, that Wakanda withstood the onslaught despite the splash panel showing Wakandans getting their asses handed to them) and because this is super hero comics, fisticuffs are the only effective defense against an invading force no matter what.

  3. #5418
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    It's entirely possible a firearm can be less effective than a melee weapon when that melee weapon is being swung at you by a god.

    The HZ thing is sort of interesting. I'm assuming from the description and the picture that it's White Wolfs HZ from Priests run rather than the HZ's T'Challa still uses. It's sort of confusing that they use the same name and outfits though. They probably should have given White Wolfs crew a different name.
    Yeaaah... Except when ya know, that same advanced tech simultaneously combats two different armies (Atlantis, the black order) annihilates one entirely (Atlantis) beats back the other and requires that army to bring it's full might and even then still takes 3 attempts, and said army at the time was arguably the most powerful army In the universe. Pretty sure the guns should have more effect, especially since these aren't your standard western guns.

    Also at this point, the HZ should be indoctrinated as the spec ops for the king. The HZ, and DM should be special forces that are sent on to handle missions the standard Wakandan army (Which should be formidable on its own right) aren't able to handle. They shouldn't be thrown around as rando redshirts to get pounded on

  4. #5419
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Yeaaah... Except when ya know, that same advanced tech simultaneously combats two different armies (Atlantis, the black order) annihilates one entirely (Atlantis) beats back the other and requires that army to bring it's full might and even then still takes 3 attempts, and said army at the time was arguably the most powerful army In the universe. Pretty sure the guns should have more effect, especially since these aren't your standard western guns.

    Also at this point, the HZ should be indoctrinated as the spec ops for the king. The HZ, and DM should be special forces that are sent on to handle missions the standard Wakandan army (Which should be formidable on its own right) aren't able to handle. They shouldn't be thrown around as rando redshirts to get pounded on
    I'm pretty sure the guns have more effect than your standard western guns... but that's not necessarily going to mean it'll be more effective than a god hitting you with an ax. Especially if you're a plant.

    Put it this way... if I wanted a tree removed from my backward, the easier more efficient way to deal with it would be an ax over a machine gun. When you're fighting a plant, they're not going to bleed to death. There's not necessarily any vital organs to shoot. It's not the same thing as fighting a human (or an Atlantean). You probably are better off cutting the damn thing in half than shooting it. So in this context against this enemy a god with an ax or a sword might believably be far more effective than a guy shooting bullets. If we're talking flame throwers I might feel differently.... but bullets probably aren't the ideal weapon here.

    Now that I think about it, spears probably aren't a great choice either. If you're going to use a mellee weapon you probalby want something which can hack over something that can stab. That's why T'Challa's the smart one... he's got a sword.
    Last edited by XPac; 08-11-2020 at 08:58 AM.

  5. #5420
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Digi, my friend you have been at this game long enough to know the name of the game when it pertains to T'Challa (and most black superheroes) is tell don't show.

    Plus according to some, showing all that amazing technological firepower isn't necessary and a simple force field (folded to us, not shown being an effective defense) is enough technology to get the point across, anything else isnt necessary since the story demands it would fail anyways (even if that would not be the case since in the last empyre issue we were told, not shown, that Wakanda withstood the onslaught despite the splash panel showing Wakandans getting their asses handed to them) and because this is super hero comics, fisticuffs are the only effective defense against an invading force no matter what.
    For an event book yeah... we're getting more tell than show than I'm sure people would like.

    We don't really see Thor on his quest, we're just told. We don't see Plants vs Zombies happening in the X books, we're just told. They do show a LITTLE bit of what's happening in Wakanda... but not a lot. They left a lot of the showing for the side stuff for the the tie ins (tie ins which unfortunately for both Black Panther and Thor were cancelled), and merely just tell you about it in the main event book. That's sort of how event books often work though... they largely just focus on the stuff the tie in books don't show you, and leave the finer details for the actual tie ins.

    And unfortunately screws us over a bit when the tie ins which are supposed to do the showing gets cancelled. You're then left with just the telling.

  6. #5421
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    The HZ being described as an independent mercenary force is lazy. We don’t know their exact status and trying to give them one when the core BP books have failed to do so is unnecessary. They’re elite troops, why add info that may or may not be true? Seems like it’s just adding context where none was needed.

    And I can’t be too mad at them not expanding on the Battle of Wakanda in the main event because that was reserved for the tie-in. That would’ve showed us a mecha and likely other cool tech but since it was cancelled it’s understandably hard to retroactively add that stuff into the main book. I’ve been dismissive of this event for the most part and wasn’t that interested in the tie-in anyway because of the AoW but I can get being upset about the lack of BP content.

  7. #5422
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    The HZ being described as an independent mercenary force is lazy. We don’t know their exact status and trying to give them one when the core BP books have failed to do so is unnecessary. They’re elite troops, why add info that may or may not be true? Seems like it’s just adding context where none was needed.

    And I can’t be too mad at them not expanding on the Battle of Wakanda in the main event because that was reserved for the tie-in. That would’ve showed us a mecha and likely other cool tech but since it was cancelled it’s understandably hard to retroactively add that stuff into the main book. I’ve been dismissive of this event for the most part and wasn’t that interested in the tie-in anyway because of the AoW but I can get being upset about the lack of BP content.
    I'm okay with it as long as these HZ specifically are White Wolf's from Priests run. We do see White Wolf in the picture, and it actually does fit that they are independent.

    But if Zeb just knew nothing about them since then, ie that HZ have been used as Wakandan red shirts since Hickman then it's an embarrassing oversight for both him and the editors.

    It's fine that there are 2 groups of HZ assuming they actually know that's the case.

  8. #5423
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I'm pretty sure the guns have more effect than your standard western guns... but that's not necessarily going to mean it'll be more effective than a god hitting you with an ax. Especially if you're a plant.

    Put it this way... if I wanted a tree removed from my backward, the easier more efficient way to deal with it would be an ax over a machine gun. When you're fighting a plant, they're not going to bleed to death. There's not necessarily any vital organs to shoot. It's not the same thing as fighting a human (or an Atlantean). You probably are better off cutting the damn thing in half than shooting it. So in this context against this enemy a god with an ax or a sword might believably be far more effective than a guy shooting bullets. If we're talking flame throwers I might feel differently.... but bullets probably aren't the ideal weapon here.

    Now that I think about it, spears probably aren't a great choice either. If you're going to use a mellee weapon you probalby want something which can hack over something that can stab. That's why T'Challa's the smart one... he's got a sword.
    Again your comparing western tactics to an uncolonized nation. This is a nation with Sonic weapons. Plus, a machine guns with mow through a tree faster then an axe so that's also not a good comparison either. Point is, Wakandans don't use standard guns, they are the most technologically advanced nation on earth. Let that sink in. . So again, their guns should and would be more Effective then what they are given credit for

  9. #5424
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    For an event book yeah... we're getting more tell than show than I'm sure people would like.

    We don't really see Thor on his quest, we're just told. We don't see Plants vs Zombies happening in the X books, we're just told. They do show a LITTLE bit of what's happening in Wakanda... but not a lot. They left a lot of the showing for the side stuff for the the tie ins (tie ins which unfortunately for both Black Panther and Thor were cancelled), and merely just tell you about it in the main event book. That's sort of how event books often work though... they largely just focus on the stuff the tie in books don't show you, and leave the finer details for the actual tie ins.

    And unfortunately screws us over a bit when the tie ins which are supposed to do the showing gets cancelled. You're then left with just the telling.
    The main book is supposed to show (not tell) you what's going on in the key places that matter. Of you are telling an invasion story and how Wakanda is the stronghold and it can't fall or the villains win.. then you SHOW how Wakanda is the stronghold and can't fall otherwise the villains win. Plus alot of the talking in the book isn't even of much substance and some could Stand to be cut out. This should be a balance of the invasion of Wakanda and the superhero battles that come with the genre. I'm not saying every issue needs to dedicate half the book to fighting, but cotdamn 2 splash pages in two issues about an invasion story is just lazy and poorly thought out. Also the difference between Thors quest and the X-Men stuff compared to T'Challa is that the invasion isn't taking place on Asgard or krakoa, and the mcguffin is located in Wakanda hence should e where we are SHOWN the action
    Last edited by Ezyo1000; 08-11-2020 at 11:39 AM.

  10. #5425
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mekk80s View Post
    Well after watching Cap #21 on capedjoel YTC they hav no excuse to not drop those last 3 issues. Need to get this over with already, I'm surprised you're here anyway you don't even like BP for reasons.
    You might have confused me with someone else. I absolutely and vehemently loathe Coates' BP and I'm not reading or buying it (dropped it at the start of "season 2") but...I've always been a huge fan of Black Panther and the Wakanda mythos.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  11. #5426
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I'm okay with it as long as these HZ specifically are White Wolf's from Priests run. We do see White Wolf in the picture, and it actually does fit that they are independent.

    But if Zeb just knew nothing about them since then, ie that HZ have been used as Wakandan red shirts since Hickman then it's an embarrassing oversight for both him and the editors.

    It's fine that there are 2 groups of HZ assuming they actually know that's the case.
    "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."

  12. #5427
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    The worst thing about this is the HZ didn't really need to be there.

    I strongly suspect they are a throwaway bit simply to show that Earth's forces are stretched thin. I bet they don't even show up again in this crossover.

  13. #5428
    Astonishing Member Cville's Avatar
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    So is that supposed to be Hunter? The one HZ is wearing his variant. They let him out for those serial killings? Lol.

    I think Zub is confused, he probably only read Priest and didn't realize Shuri brought them back.

  14. #5429
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Again your comparing western tactics to an uncolonized nation. This is a nation with Sonic weapons. Plus, a machine guns with mow through a tree faster then an axe so that's also not a good comparison either. Point is, Wakandans don't use standard guns, they are the most technologically advanced nation on earth. Let that sink in. . So again, their guns should and would be more Effective then what they are given credit for
    We'll have to agree to disagree about a machine gun being able to mow through a tree faster than an ax. Though it's possible to do it, it's simply not the right tool for the job. It would take a ridiculous amount of bullets to do what a single chop from an ax can do. It's possible... but there's a reason people cut down trees the way they do even in modern times.

    As far as sonic weapons go... I think you're still better off with a cutting tool (or a flame thrower... from a non melee standpoint that theoretically should work). You're still probably better off with a freaking god carrying an ax quite frankly.

    And in White Wolfs defense (assuming that's White Wolf... it looks like him), it's not like he likely goes around prepped to fight an army of plants 24/7. He logically has weaponry which is effective against human beings because odds are that's what he needs to kill 99.99% of the time. US army is likely having the same problems. The ones best suited to this are the Asgardians because their status quo offense worse just as well against plants as it does pretty much anything else. There's less of a learning curve with them.

  15. #5430
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    The worst thing about this is the HZ didn't really need to be there.

    I strongly suspect they are a throwaway bit simply to show that Earth's forces are stretched thin. I bet they don't even show up again in this crossover.
    It's random, but not entirely illogical. The truth is that Hunters group probably would come to Wakanda's defense if it were in danger. You can make an arguement the weird thing isn't that they're showing up to help here but rather that they've never been shown helping during previous invasions because despite being villains Hunter does have Wakanda's best interest at heart.

    Of course this could simply be a matter of Zeb not having read anything of Wakanda since Priests run. Then again, maybe it's planting a SMALL seed which can be used later (perhaps by Aaron or the next BP writer or even the MCU down the line). Maybe we'll see more of them, and this is just reminding people that they're still out there. The later is probably less likely, but I certainly wouldn't mind White Wolf showing up again so I have my fingers crossed.

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