Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[Nate Grey]

If you don't like talking to me you can always put me on avoid. No harm no foul.

Likewise, but you're in the mods back pocket so you're protected either way.

But you had a point I wanted to respond to on a public discussin board, so I did. That's how these things work.

Message boards are also cumulative as well since we're giving pointers on how message boards work. No one post exists in a vacuum unless the poster says so. your response or would-be question was addressed by me and others, hence, knock THAT down or continue trolling I guess.

[dkrook]

I mean if we gonna address the elephant in the room, we might as well name him. I nominate Dumbo.



Seriously, I hope little black boys didn't google M'Baku cause once they see that gorilla outfit, it then goes back to just T'challa and Wakabi. And while I'm sympathetic for Wakabi, even a child can see you betrayed your best friend so he's out. It's then just T'challa.

versus THREE powerful black women who never fell into the damsel in the distress category. Even mama Romanda was ready to throw down when she pulled that dagger but it turned out to be Nakia. And Nakia threw down with the bad guy, something I personally love: the designated or would be LI going toe to toe, even briefly, with the villain.

Your equivalent mastery of facts and theatrics are both impressive and amusing.

[XPac]

As much as it hurts me to say this but there is no way that Marvel is going to recast the T’Challa.

To the vast majority of people on earth Chadwick Boseman IS T’challa. With us fans of the 616 T’challa being the exception.

Marvel will be forced to pass on the mantle on to someone else (most likely Shuri)

What scares me the most is that Disney will retire the 616 T’challa in effort to promote their more profitable movie sector.

I wouldn't say there's NO WAY they wouldn't recast T'Challa.

It will bother some people if they do, just like it will bother some people if they give Shuri the mantle.

But ultimately those people will get over it, while the majority of the people will likely enjoy the ride either way. Social media tends to become this echo chamber where a few loud voices create the illusion that they're bigger and louder than they actually are.

[DigiCom]

Well, I suppose it has been long enough so... my thoughts:

Firstly, anyone who thinks Shuri needs to be BP because "That's what happened in the comics!" needs to sit in a corner and watch every single MCU film again, because "what happened in the comics" has _never_ influenced the movies. Quite the opposite, in fact.

That being said...

Marvel Studios basically have three choices on how to proceed. None of them are really good, and no matter what, someone is going to get pissed off.

1. Cancel the sequel. This is the first time that we've seen a lead character's performer pass away in a major franchise (The Crow does not count... the sequels all had different characters as protagonists). Of course, that's leaving money on the table, but with the current pandemic culture, it might be the best move.
2. Recast. That would enable them to move forward with their original plans, more or less, but whoever gets the role will face an uphill battle, being compared by fans to Chadwick.
3. Give the mantle to someone else. It means T'Challa's story would end prematurely, but wold reduce the inevitable comparisons.

But who would they choose? Okoye is unlikely to accept it (conflicting loyalties and all that), and I seriously doubt M'Baku would accept the cat suit as a worshipper of Hanuman. In my mind, that leaves three possibilities:

1. Shuri: Not only does she have the strongest character arc (having to grow up and take responsibility) but her science background might make up for the lack of the HSH.
2. Nakia: She looked like the champion of the River Tribe at the Falls, and would certainly be motivated. She's not really comfortable in the spotlight, tho.
3. Someone new, like the MCU version of Kasper Cole. But they would have to set up his status quo at the same time, and might crowd the movie.

What's the best choice? Frankly, I don't know, but I'm glad it's not my job to decide. I don't begrudge Feige & Coogler their choice.

[Ezyo1000]

They had the opportunity to prepare Shuri her whole freaking life. That's the point of a royal family in a monarchy. But in the LEAST if they were frankly too stupid to bother doing that prior to the first BP movie, then they should have been doing it since Killmonger. If they haven't then they deserve to have another tribe take over Wakanda because they're not meeting their obligations to the Wakandan people.

If there ever was an endoresement for Democracy in fiction it's the Royal family in the first BP movie. Their leader is killed, and they're running around with a magical herb trying to find someone to be the next ruler of Wakanda. What kind of system is that? One of the few advantages of a monarchy is the ability to actually prepare someone from birth for the role of being a leader, but if T'Challa's family didn't bother then they might as well just say screw it and have elections because they clearly don't know what the heck they are doing. They're neglecting their daughter and Wakanda ... and why? Because she's a lab rat? Or because she's a woman? Or maybe just because.

But whatever mistakes they have made, they can rectify by simply showing that Shuri is more prepared in the next movie. It's not a stretch considering that's what they should have been doing all this time anyways. Even if she doesn't become BP, it's stupid that she's not prepared for the role. Even if people consider it a retcon, it's a worthwhile one to show that T'Challa's family knows what they are actually doing.

I mean.. what are you not getting here? She's isn't the best warrior for the taking over. If nakia and okoye fought for the throne I bet Nakia would lose, Okoye is the greatest warrior in Wakanda 2nd to T'Challa. I didn't say that Shuri has zero experience and absolutely couldn't rule, but it would not be by the second movie. 2 years isn't enough time to catch up to straight up warriors who whole job is to kick ass, while she divides her time between learning how to rule, training and running the WDG and advancing Wakandan technology.. and don't even pull that isht of "because she a woman" that is stupid and doesn't even apply as both Okoye AND Nakia were offered to HSH and Shuri wasn't even apart of the discussion, so miss me with that gender inequality BS.

In a monarch while yes the Royal family has multiple heirs and Shuri could take over, the oldest generally are going to be groomed the most While the siblings whole also groomed, also realize that they will have to find their own path as well because they may not get the throne.

But form the movie stand point, there are so many themes to explore still with T'Challa thst switching gears would be a disaster, remember the flak the new starwars trilogies got? That can easily happen here if you don't focus on a clear path, and Coogler was writing the sequel to continue the themes explored in the first movie

[XPac]

Well, I suppose it has been long enough so... my thoughts:

Firstly, anyone who thinks Shuri needs to be BP because "That's what happened in the comics!" needs to sit in a corner and watch every single MCU film again, because "what happened in the comics" has _never_ influenced the movies. Quite the opposite, in fact.

That being said...

Marvel Studios basically have three choices on how to proceed. None of them are really good, and no matter what, someone is going to get pissed off.

1. Cancel the sequel. This is the first time that we've seen a lead character's performer pass away in a major franchise (The Crow does not count... the sequels all had different characters as protagonists). Of course, that's leaving money on the table, but with the current pandemic culture, it might be the best move.
2. Recast. That would enable them to move forward with their original plans, more or less, but whoever gets the role will face an uphill battle, being compared by fans to Chadwick.
3. Give the mantle to someone else. It means T'Challa's story would end prematurely, but wold reduce the inevitable comparisons.

But who would they choose? Okoye is unlikely to accept it (conflicting loyalties and all that), and I seriously doubt M'Baku would accept the cat suit as a worshipper of Hanuman. In my mind, that leaves three possibilities:

1. Shuri: Not only does she have the strongest character arc (having to grow up and take responsibility) but her science background might make up for the lack of the HSH.
2. Nakia: She looked like the champion of the River Tribe at the Falls, and would certainly be motivated. She's not really comfortable in the spotlight, tho.
3. Someone new, like the MCU version of Kasper Cole. But they would have to set up his status quo at the same time, and might crowd the movie.

What's the best choice? Frankly, I don't know, but I'm glad it's not my job to decide. I don't begrudge Feige & Coogler their choice.

Ironically enough it's both an easy decision and a hard one.

Hard in that people will complain no matter what. Easy in that because everyone will complain no matter what you do, you might as well just do whatever the heck you want because you'll get complaints no matter what. So in a way, having your back against the wall this way is actually quite liberating.

Just to add to the name of list of potential replacements... I have heard some fun theories about a resurrected and redeemed Killmonger. On paper that would make zero sense for a variety of reasons. But I can't help shake the idea that it's sort of a fun idea if they could somehow make it work. I do think actor wise Jordan would get less backlash than anyone aside from maybe Letitia. Not that I think this is in any way, shape or form likely... just a fun idea floating out there.

[Ezyo1000]

I mean if we gonna address the elephant in the room, we might as well name him. I nominate Dumbo.



Seriously, I hope little black boys didn't google M'Baku cause once they see that gorilla outfit, it then goes back to just T'challa and Wakabi. And while I'm sympathetic for Wakabi, even a child can see you betrayed your best friend so he's out. It's then just T'challa.

versus THREE powerful black women who never fell into the damsel in the distress category. Even mama Romanda was ready to throw down when she pulled that dagger but it turned out to be Nakia. And Nakia threw down with the bad guy, something I personally love: the designated or would be LI going toe to toe, even briefly, with the villain.

My Dude.. I didn't even register that on my mind lol. ALL 3 of the female role models threw down with Erik and did well for not having any powers. AND it was Okoye who got wkabi and the border tribe to stand down.. the female cast, Shuri was fighting AND instructing Ross on how to pilot and stop the dragonfliers... So much agency given to the female cast.. but somehow it's wasn't enough (even though T'Challa is the franchise lead his cast got to do more than any other supporting cast in marvel movies, only beaten out by actual ensemble movies barely) yet the concensus is that T'Challa needs to be phased out? Gimme a break.

[Nate Grey]

My Dude.. I didn't even register that on my mind lol. ALL 3 of the female role models threw down with Erik and did well for not having any powers. AND it was Okoye who got wkabi and the border tribe to stand down.. the female cast, Shuri was fighting AND instructing Ross on how to pilot and stop the dragonfliers... So much agency given to the female cast.. but somehow it's wasn't enough (even though T'Challa is the franchise lead his cast got to do more than any other supporting cast in marvel movies, only beaten out by actual ensemble movies barely) yet the concensus is that T'Challa needs to be phased out? Gimme a break.

To add to all of that? We actually got to see Okoye in the leadership (well de facto leadership) role in Endgame. That daily report via hologram...it wasn't action packed but still spoke volumes.

But somehow, magically, still not enough.

[Ascended]

The thing that makes me kinda sad here is that we got one film franchise starring a black man. Over a decade of the MCU and two dozen films and we have one movie with a black lead. And the women aren't doing much better either, regardless of color (screw you, Ike!).

But here we have a situation where that single black male lead is under fire so he can be replaced with a black woman, and....I get it, to a point. Black women are the least represented demographic in America, according to my sociology class, and they deserve better (SO much better). And MCU fans tend to think of the actor and the character as synonymous. But come on, y'all want to cannibalize the only black lead in the MCU instead of adding another? And yeah, the odds of Storm, or Misty, or Spectrum, or whoever, getting a solo project seem pretty damn low. So? Not too long ago nobody thought we'd get the Panther in a solo MCU movie either. Or Shang Chi. You can't tell me that we live in a world where friggin Shang Chi can get a movie but it's impossible for Spectrum.

Shouldn't the rallying cry be "If you wanna honor Chadwick, add more black leads!?" Shouldn't we be saying this is the time to push representation wider, instead of fighting over the one, single example we already have? I mean, we had little Monica show up in Captain Marvel and the adult version showing up in Wandavision.....why are we not yelling for her to move on into her own solo show/film from there? Why is this a matter of "we have one single black lead, let's argue over the gender!" when it should be "we need more black leads of both genders?"

I understand that some people don't want T'Challa recast, and like I said a while back that's a very MCU attitude to have. But wouldn't the better choice be to, instead of fighting over the table scraps that is a single IP in the wide and ever-growing MCU, to fight and petition and push for more than just that one IP in the first place?

[MindofShadow]

[*]Recast. That would enable them to move forward with their original plans, more or less, but whoever gets the role will face an uphill battle, being compared by fans to Chadwick.

I honestly think if an actor came out and just said, "I am no Chadwick Boseman but I will do my best to honor his legacy with this character." that everyone would give whoever it was a pass no matter what.

[XPac]

I mean.. what are you not getting here? She's isn't the best warrior for the taking over. If nakia and okoye fought for the throne I bet Nakia would lose, Okoye is the greatest warrior in Wakanda 2nd to T'Challa. I didn't say that Shuri has zero experience and absolutely couldn't rule, but it would not be by the second movie. 2 years isn't enough time to catch up to straight up warriors who whole job is to kick ass, while she divides her time between learning how to rule, training and running the WDG and advancing Wakandan technology.. and don't even pull that isht of "because she a woman" that is stupid and doesn't even apply as both Okoye AND Nakia were offered to HSH and Shuri wasn't even apart of the discussion, so miss me with that gender inequality BS.

In a monarch while yes the Royal family has multiple heirs and Shuri could take over, the oldest generally are going to be groomed the most While the siblings whole also groomed, also realize that they will have to find their own path as well because they may not get the throne.

But form the movie stand point, there are so many themes to explore still with T'Challa thst switching gears would be a disaster, remember the flak the new starwars trilogies got? That can easily happen here if you don't focus on a clear path, and Coogler was writing the sequel to continue the themes explored in the first movie

Steve Rogers probably had less than 2 years of military training and become arguable the best fighter on the planet. Just saying.

Place Okoye in the role of Pauly and Shuri's one Rocky montage away from being able to beat anyone they put in front of her, because that's what movie protagonist do. We've seen this in a million times in a different other movies. Doesn't matter than Daniel should have gotten his butt kicked by Johnny after only getting a couple months of training in comparrison to a guy who was previously a 2 time champion... Daniel was going to overcome the odds because he's the hero of the movie and that's what heroes do. If Shuri is put in that positon, she'll rise to the occasion just like any other protagonist.

Everything you are describing... every obstacle and every reason she can't and shouldn't be ruler is exactly what makes her a viable choice to tell this story. It creates a character arc and responsibility she would ultimately have to grow into, proving everyone who doubts her wrong. And that sort of thing is accomplished in a single movie all the time.

Point being it's workable if Coogler decides to go there. Though if he wants to still explore T'Challa obviously he'll do that instead. Again, he has options.

[Nate Grey]

The thing that makes me kinda sad here is that we got one film franchise starring a black man. Over a decade of the MCU and two dozen films and we have one movie with a black lead. And the women aren't doing much better either, regardless of color (screw you, Ike!).

But here we have a situation where that single black male lead is under fire so he can be replaced with a black woman, and....I get it, to a point. Black women are the least represented demographic in America, according to my sociology class, and they deserve better (SO much better). And MCU fans tend to think of the actor and the character as synonymous. But come on, y'all want to cannibalize the only black lead in the MCU instead of adding another? And yeah, the odds of Storm, or Misty, or Spectrum, or whoever, getting a solo project seem pretty damn low. So? Not too long ago nobody thought we'd get the Panther in a solo MCU movie either. Or Shang Chi. You can't tell me that we live in a world where friggin Shang Chi can get a movie but it's impossible for Spectrum.

Shouldn't the rallying cry be "If you wanna honor Chadwick, add more black leads!?" Shouldn't we be saying this is the time to push representation wider, instead of fighting over the one, single example we already have? I mean, we had little Monica show up in Captain Marvel and the adult version showing up in Wandavision.....why are we not yelling for her to move on into her own solo show/film from there? Why is this a matter of "we have one single black lead, let's argue over the gender!" when it should be "we need more black leads of both genders?"

I understand that some people don't want T'Challa recast, and like I said a while back that's a very MCU attitude to have. But wouldn't the better choice be to, instead of fighting over the table scraps that is a single IP in the wide and ever-growing MCU, to fight and petition and push for more than just that one IP in the first place?

You're right. I've mused over how in addition to whatever they decide in regards to Black Panther, add more black IPs. Figure out what legal entanglements there are with Luke Cage and bring him back. Bring in Doctor Voodoo. Heck, I'll say it here and now, a SOLO movie for Storm, get the best writers possible to make it her own movie, with her own cast of characters, and so she's not a side character in her own movie to other X-Men. If Monica won't ever be Captain Marvel, fine, a Spectrum movie then.

[chief12d]

As much as it hurts me to say this but there is no way that Marvel is going to recast the T’Challa.

To the vast majority of people on earth Chadwick Boseman IS T’challa. With us fans of the 616 T’challa being the exception.

Marvel will be forced to pass on the mantle on to someone else (most likely Shuri)

What scares me the most is that Disney will retire the 616 T’challa in effort to promote their more profitable movie sector.

I think that a recast is one of those things that needs to be announced at the right time. As a culture we’re at a place where for some reason actors “own” the characters they portray and the two are inextricably linked. So if you look at places like Twitter and Reddit the push for T’Challa to be retired and Shuri to take the throne is pretty heavy. But I think that like in the past, it takes time for people’s inhibitions to lower and cooler heads to prevail in specific cases. Announcing a recast this year or next would be a debacle but given 2-3 years I definitely see there being more support. Black Panther 2 will probably do numbers no matter which direction Disney goes in but I think that in time the tides will shift for a T’Challa recast. Especially if he continues to be used in other mediums and Marvel demonstrates the character has more to offer than being a martyr for Shuri or Killmonger.

[XPac]

My Dude.. I didn't even register that on my mind lol. ALL 3 of the female role models threw down with Erik and did well for not having any powers. AND it was Okoye who got wkabi and the border tribe to stand down.. the female cast, Shuri was fighting AND instructing Ross on how to pilot and stop the dragonfliers... So much agency given to the female cast.. but somehow it's wasn't enough (even though T'Challa is the franchise lead his cast got to do more than any other supporting cast in marvel movies, only beaten out by actual ensemble movies barely) yet the concensus is that T'Challa needs to be phased out? Gimme a break.

There's no doubt that Coogler did am amazing job with the female supporting characters. They arguably carried the last half of the movie.

I think the issue is that a great female supporting character is still a supporting character. It's like Sam in the first Captain America movie... he was great (unlike freaking War Machine), but that obviously doesn't stop people from wanting a black male lead like Black Panther. It's just not the same thing.

As long as there are zero black female leads, a small handful of people on twitter will champion any opportunity they get whether. And the BP movie is an opportunity... presently the one one visible on the horizen. So they'll take their shot, even though it PROBABLY won't matter one way or the other.

[Devaishwarya]

100%. Well, 90% because you are puttin gyour adult brains in kids. Black boys aren't gonna dress as a female black panther on halloween or buy girl toys. I have two boys. The only "girl" toy in the house is Skye from Paw Patrol and the girl from PJ mask. They ain't buying girl super hero toys. They dont play with girl super heroes on Lego Marvel on PS4. That just isn't what kids do.

But yes... black female leads are really important. So... go push for those black female lead franchises. Don't cannibalize the only black male one. Y'all should be screaming for Spectrum, screaming for Storm, screaming for Vixen, Bumble Bee, Misty Knight. Put that energy towards minority females.

Who said anything about boys dressing as female characters and playing with female dolls? Nowhere does my post even suggest such a thing.
Besides...
Black Panther /T'Challa still exists. In media, the movies, in comics. Your Boys still have their toys and male costumes...for all eternity.

Who said anything of "cannibalising" the Black male franchise...T'Challa wasn't the only male, nor the only character in the movie who was/became an iconic role-model.
Again...the viewing audience, black boys, girls, men and women don't lose anything...either way. The Mantle of Black Panther is always portrayed as an emblem of power and pride, regardless of who is wearing it. It didn't/doesn't lose any of it's positive symbolism because a woman wore/is wearing it.

Personally I don't care all that much which direction Coogler and Marvel takes with the movie going forward...recast a male lead, put Shuri in the lead role...whatever they decide we the viewing audience will lose nothing of the impact and importance.

You and others like you have nothing to fear. You and your boys can still go out on Halloween night dressed as Black Panther and perhaps you will see women and their daughters dressed as Black Panther too.