Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[XPac]

The thing that makes me kinda sad here is that we got one film franchise starring a black man. Over a decade of the MCU and two dozen films and we have one movie with a black lead. And the women aren't doing much better either, regardless of color (screw you, Ike!).

But here we have a situation where that single black male lead is under fire so he can be replaced with a black woman, and....I get it, to a point. Black women are the least represented demographic in America, according to my sociology class, and they deserve better (SO much better). And MCU fans tend to think of the actor and the character as synonymous. But come on, y'all want to cannibalize the only black lead in the MCU instead of adding another? And yeah, the odds of Storm, or Misty, or Spectrum, or whoever, getting a solo project seem pretty damn low. So? Not too long ago nobody thought we'd get the Panther in a solo MCU movie either. Or Shang Chi. You can't tell me that we live in a world where friggin Shang Chi can get a movie but it's impossible for Spectrum.

Shouldn't the rallying cry be "If you wanna honor Chadwick, add more black leads!?" Shouldn't we be saying this is the time to push representation wider, instead of fighting over the one, single example we already have? I mean, we had little Monica show up in Captain Marvel and the adult version showing up in Wandavision.....why are we not yelling for her to move on into her own solo show/film from there? Why is this a matter of "we have one single black lead, let's argue over the gender!" when it should be "we need more black leads of both genders?"

I understand that some people don't want T'Challa recast, and like I said a while back that's a very MCU attitude to have. But wouldn't the better choice be to, instead of fighting over the table scraps that is a single IP in the wide and ever-growing MCU, to fight and petition and push for more than just that one IP in the first place?

I would imagine the people wanting to cannibalize the only current black lead in the MCU will sleep a LITTLE better at night knowing that Blade and Falcon at least give black boys something on screen (in addition to Luke Cage if he counts). Not that it doesn't suck either way.

It's easy and understandable to say that people should be championing a Spectrum movie instead of Shuri being Black Panther. But again, if the Black Panther movie actually exists with potentially a 50/50 shot at having a female lead while the Spectrum movie doesn't (and honestly probably never will), it's understandable that people will channel their energy the way they are. It's fighting for something tangiable and achievable as oppossed to something that doens't even exist. The later is literally screaming into the void.

[MindofShadow]

Besides...
Black Panther /T'Challa still exists. In media, the movies, in comics. Your Boys still have their toys and male costumes...for all eternity.

Good point.

They definitely shouldn't use Storm in the MCU right? I mean, she has already been in media, the movies, and comics. cartoons. video games.

They should give her spot in the MCU xmen to Prodigy or Eden instead. Give some positive representation for black male mutants for once.

Right?

[Devaishwarya]

If you can't address what I'm actually saying without adding your "spin/interpretation" on it, then this conversation is pointless. I'm out of this "fight"

[XPac]

Who said anything about boys dressing as female characters and playing with female dolls? Nowhere does my post even suggest such a thing.
Besides...
Black Panther /T'Challa still exists. In media, the movies, in comics. Your Boys still have their toys and male costumes...for all eternity.

Who said anything of "cannibalising" the Black male franchise...T'Challa wasn't the only male, nor the only character in the movie who was/became an iconic role-model.
Again...the viewing audience, black boys, girls, men and women don't lose anything...either way. The Mantle of Black Panther is always portrayed as an emblem of power and pride, regardless of who is wearing it. It didn't/doesn't lose any of it's positive symbolism because a woman wore/is wearing it.

Personally I don't care all that much which direction Coogler and Marvel takes with the movie going forward...recast a male lead, put Shuri in the lead role...whatever they decide we the viewing audience will lose nothing of the impact and importance.

You and others like you have nothing to fear. You and your boys can still go out on Halloween night dressed as Black Panther and perhaps you will see women and their daughters dressed as Black Panther too.

From Cooglers perspective, I suspect it's progress either way to the point where I don't think he'll be losing too much sleep over the decision he inevitably makes. Regardless of whether the BP we have moving foreward is a male or female, there will still be a great deal of positive symbolism that can potentially be a positive fluenc for generations to come.

To the few people on either side of the issue who aren't getting EXACTLY what they want, it'll be an issue... but they'll get over it and move on.

[Devaishwarya]

Exactatiously. The decision is up to Coogler and the Studio. And I'm sure whatever they decide will be the right decision for the character, for the franchise regardless of the fear a few may feel.

[BushidoBlade2]

I think that a recast is one of those things that needs to be announced at the right time.

This is why I think they should wait a year at least before announcing whoever he will be. Give the people doing the damn most right now some time to simmer down.

People are crazy if they think Disney is just gonna throw away a billion dollar franchise like Black Panther.

[chief12d]

Not compared to black men they aren't. That's what's annoying about this, Overhazard is right when they say this shouldn't be a zero sum game. Common sense would say create more for BOTH not use one to prop make way for the other so there's only ever ONE. And funny how it never goes in the other direction. What black woman has been used to make way for a black male hero?

I'd argue black women have it worse in terms of adaptations. Black men and boys have Blade, Luke Cage, Black Panther, and the upcoming Falcon (though that's more of a buddy cop thing). Plus a Blade reboot. Black women have a black female invented for a garbage CW show, a racebent Catwoman (who's white in every other medium), and a Vixen animated series that doesn't even amount to two hours worth of content.

I completely agree fighting over table scraps is a scarcity mindset that holds back diversity in Hollywood, but I think it's worth pointing out there's a certain degree of desperation for a strong black female lead that even black men don't quite have to grapple with. If Monica had gotten a movie back in the 90s and Misty Knight was getting a TV show I doubt there'd be as much push as there is now for Shuri to take the mantle. But the reality is Shuri is in the minds of many people, the most immediate and perhaps more importantly, high quality option for a black female-led superhero franchise.

[DigiCom]

I honestly think if an actor came out and just said, "I am no Chadwick Boseman but I will do my best to honor his legacy with this character." that everyone would give whoever it was a pass no matter what.

Have you actually MET any comics fans?

They'll fight every decision at the drop of a hat. Any hat. Even if it just fell off the hatstand.

Trust me. They could cast the greatest black actor alive, and some fan will complain because he's too short/tall.

[MindofShadow]

If you can't address what I'm actually saying without adding your "spin/interpretation" on it, then this conversation is pointless. I'm out of this "fight"

It is a direct analogy. The most popular female POC and the most popular male POC. Why can't you answer the question? the viewing audience, black boys, girls, men and women don't lose anything...either way if Storm is traded out of Prodigy in the MCU.

Who said anything of "cannibalising" the Black male franchise...T'Challa wasn't the only male, nor the only character in the movie who was/became an iconic role-model.

You want to discard the only black male hero in order to push a female black hero. That is what that means.

There is only T'challa and M'baku. The rest are dead or a traitor.

Again...the viewing audience, black boys, girls, men and women don't lose anything...either way. The Mantle of Black Panther is always portrayed as an emblem of power and pride, regardless of who is wearing it. It didn't/doesn't lose any of it's positive symbolism because a woman wore/is wearing it.

This is incredibly naive to think it won't change anything.

What is the positive symbolism for BLACK MALES if the mantle is held by Shuri?

[chief12d]

Have you actually MET any comics fans?

They'll fight every decision at the drop of a hat. Any hat. Even if it just fell off the hatstand.

Trust me. They could cast the greatest black actor alive, and some fan will complain because he's too short/tall.

And let's not act like if Shuri doesn't become BP people are going to be entirely fair in their assessment of whoever Boseman's replacement ends up being either. If you think the fans that wanted the recast in the first place are gonna be rough, imagine how those with an agenda on Twitter and in the media are gonna react lol. Dude is really gonna get put through the ringer those first few weeks.

[Nate Grey]

I'd argue black women have it worse in terms of adaptations. Black men and boys have Blade, Luke Cage, Black Panther, and the upcoming Falcon (though that's more of a buddy cop thing). Plus a Blade reboot. Black women have a black female invented for a garbage CW show, a racebent Catwoman (who's white in every other medium), and a Vixen animated series that doesn't even amount to two hours worth of content.

But they have current interpretations, and still counting. The lead in Star Trek: Discovery, the lead in Star Trek: Lower Decks, Vagrant Queen (though it just got cancelled). I've been meaning to compile a list if for no other reason than to hear folks knock it down and see how none if it counts vs what's available for black males. I guess they figured "You had Sisko that's all you get" for Star Trek, for instance.

I completely agree fighting over table scraps is a scarcity mindset that holds back diversity in Hollywood, but I think it's worth pointing out there's a certain degree of desperation for a strong black female lead that even black men don't quite have to grapple with. If Monica had gotten a movie back in the 90s and Misty Knight was getting a TV show I doubt there'd be as much push as there is now for Shuri to take the mantle. But the reality is Shuri is in the minds of many people, the most immediate and perhaps more importantly, high quality option for a black female-led superhero franchise.

To be honest, it'll never be a honest discussion without pointing out the current black women in fiction, both in leadership roles and supporting. That's why I tend to disengage, eventually, when this is brought up. Cause the point that black women's current representation, while yes it could be better, at least exists and should continue, seems to get lost and it suddenly becomes they're not represented at all, and somehow black men have been represented well so its black women's turn. It gets old, so...agree where we do agree, agree to disagree where we disagree I guess.

[BushidoBlade2]

I'd argue black women have it worse in terms of adaptations. Black men and boys have Blade, Luke Cage, Black Panther, and the upcoming Falcon (though that's more of a buddy cop thing).

You make it sounds like we were given those characters all in one big lump. Blade was in 1998, Luke Cage 2016 & Black Panther 2018. Also there were prominent black female characters in each so it's not like they were lacking.

[Nate Grey]

It is a direct analogy. The most popular female POC and the most popular male POC. Why can't you answer the question? the viewing audience, black boys, girls, men and women don't lose anything...either way if Storm is traded out of Prodigy in the MCU.



You want to discard the only black male hero in order to push a female black hero. That is what that means.

There is only T'challa and M'baku. The rest are dead or a traitor.



This is incredibly naive to think it won't change anything.

What is the positive symbolism for BLACK MALES if the mantle is held by Shuri?

You're point was clear, IMO. Why should black boys have to reach back in time to heroes who aren't currently on the screen, but black girls get current interpretations and counting? For the few in the back with reading comprehension problems, you me and others aren't saying black women shouldn't continue to have such interpretations, but it should be in addition to black male interpretations not instead of. There has been no "golden age" where black men reigned supreme in fiction now its black women's turn, which seems to be implication.

[MindofShadow]

To be honest, it'll never be a honest discussion without pointing out the current black women in fiction, both in leadership roles and supporting. That's why I tend to disengage, eventually, when this is brought up. Cause the point that black women's current representation, while yes it could be better, at least exists and should continue, seems to get lost and it suddenly becomes they're not represented at all, and somehow black men have been represented well so its black women's turn. It gets old, so...agree where we do agree, agree to disagree where we disagree I guess.

Just a reminder OKOYE got just as much screen time as T'challa in Infinity war (3:30 for BP, 3:15 for Okoye)

Just a reminder OKOYE got more screen time than T'challa in Endgame (2:00 for okoye, 1:45 for T'challa)

(Valkryie got more than both lol. Wild)

[XPac]

I'd argue black women have it worse in terms of adaptations. Black men and boys have Blade, Luke Cage, Black Panther, and the upcoming Falcon (though that's more of a buddy cop thing). Plus a Blade reboot. Black women have a black female invented for a garbage CW show, a racebent Catwoman (who's white in every other medium), and a Vixen animated series that doesn't even amount to two hours worth of content.

I completely agree fighting over table scraps is a scarcity mindset that holds back diversity in Hollywood, but I think it's worth pointing out there's a certain degree of desperation for a strong black female lead that even black men don't quite have to grapple with. If Monica had gotten a movie back in the 90s and Misty Knight was getting a TV show I doubt there'd be as much push as there is now for Shuri to take the mantle. But the reality is Shuri is in the minds of many people, the most immediate and perhaps more importantly, high quality option for a black female-led superhero franchise.

Yeah, I think Shuri without a doubt is the golden goose for the notion of Marvel having a female lead. With all due respect, no one believes that Spectrum will get her own movie (and I say that as a fan). Next time we see Misty Knight, if ever it'll be at either Luke or Dannys side. Storm at least has a slim chance... but until she's at least a blip on the radar I think Shuri is the best and only viable option for a high profile high quality female lead.

In hindsight it's pretty amazing how potentially significant a character Hudlin created back in the day. I don't think even he realized it at the time.