Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[chief12d]

*yawn*



I'm reading a lot of posts about agendas, but not a whole lot about what's best for the story/setting/characters.

Coogler and Feige should continue the vision they originally had. It's plain as day T'Challa was going to be a key figure for the Avengers going forward and I think you quite literally have a once in a generation opportunity to define the Black Panther mythology through its originator. The consequences of opening Wakanda, the struggle of man vs king, his relationship with Nakia and the other tribes, these were plot points unique to T'Challa that deserve to be completed before Shuri or M'Baku take the throne for a sequel trilogy.

Of course Marvel could contrive a way for Shuri to become this super badass warrior and tech genius who is thrust into her brother's shoes. But outside the fact that for many it wouldn't feel organic or true to what she was supposed to be, I think T'Challa should be the one to complete Wakanda's integration on the world stage because it was choice. The only stumbling block is the tragic passing of Chadwick Boseman, but ultimately I think what T'Challa represents as an ideal for heroism should transcend his actor.

I can't speak for Boseman nor would I ever assume to know what he would want, but I think the way he framed every aspect of this movie in terms of its broader impact on black consciousness, there should be consideration given to allowing T'Challa to continue on being the hero he was. There will always be time for Shuri or Okoye or whoever to take the throne and define it for themselves, but I think T'Challa's arc is worthy of completion on account of how he brought us this world and should get the space to explore it for years to come.

[taozen]

Interesting discussion so far. My 2 cents: Black Panther (T'Challa) Is the one ICONIC Black male character in comics that is not a derivative of another character. The one. Many fans were clamoring for Shuri to be Black Panther after the first movie for different reasons but one was her character was written in a dynamic way while T'Challa was written as more stoic and regal. Also there are so few Black heroes in movies and the Black superhero fans are starving for heroes. Coogler knew of the lack of female representation and he wrote significant and dynamic female characters in the 1st BP movie. Some male characters were changed from their comic counterparts such as T'Challa (not being smart or arrogant) and Zuri (from fabled warrior to aged shaman) to make room for the dynamic female characters.

I believe that Black Panther (T'Challa) is too important of a character to be shelved. He is an iconic character. There are so so few iconic Black superheroes. If Marvel and Coogler want to truly honor Chadwick Boseman, they should recast the character and write/produce great Black Panther stories in the movies to come. That is how you honor the work that Boseman put into developing his character and the BP story. Just my 2 cents.

[XPac]

Coolz.
So T'Challa is alive and well and Wakanda is still standing...ready and waiting for a good writer.
Good to know, thanks.

2021 needs tuh hurry up an' get here.

Yeah, it's similar to Secret Empire. Wakanda was in the story and played a role, but Wakanda isn't effected in the least. You and the next BP book can completely ignore the event.

Maybe the one take away from this event is that Wakanda has a force field. That's about it. Hopefully the next writer will remember that.

[XJlock]

Personally, I believe that it is absurd to hold T'Challa's character hostage to a regrettably departed man, when he is clearly alive and well as of Avengers Endgame and ready for the next storyline. Anyway, time will tell his ultimate fate.

[Ascended]

I've made that arguement to before before... and it basically translated to mean "wait your turn" to the people on the receiving end. If people are starving they will fight over table scraps. If you have nothing, you will fight over anything you can get.

Yeah, I know. I get it.

But I still think we're looking at it the wrong way; this shouldn't be an "either/or" thing, it should be a "and/and" thing. And like I said, I don't begrudge the people talking about Shuri taking over the mantle. I don't agree with it; I think that's the wrong call for the story and characters as well as the franchise. But I don't blame the people who're looking at Marvel's upcoming projects and the lack of black female leads there, and going after the one thing that seems achievable.

And who knows, maybe that's what Marvel will decide to do. And if that's their call, okay. They've earned my trust and will keep it until they stop making entertaining movies. But I'd much rather see T'Challa recast *and* see some strong black women in leading roles, instead of just getting one or the other. We shouldn't have to settle for scraps.

[XPac]

Yeah, I know. I get it.

But I still think we're looking at it the wrong way; this shouldn't be an "either/or" thing, it should be a "and/and" thing. And like I said, I don't begrudge the people talking about Shuri taking over the mantle. I don't agree with it; I think that's the wrong call for the story and characters as well as the franchise. But I don't blame the people who're looking at Marvel's upcoming projects and the lack of black female leads there, and going after the one thing that seems achievable.

And who knows, maybe that's what Marvel will decide to do. And if that's their call, okay. They've earned my trust and will keep it until they stop making entertaining movies. But I'd much rather see T'Challa recast *and* see some strong black women in leading roles, instead of just getting one or the other. We shouldn't have to settle for scraps.

At the end of the day, really all we can do is place our faith in Coogler and Fiege to do the franchise right. They've earned the benefit of the doubt.

And BP aside, we have Falcon and inevitably Blade coming down the pike. So we're getting more one way or the other.

[chief12d]

If Brother Voodoo debuted in the Dr. Strange movie, I would put him in the same category as Captain Marvel and Steve Rogers. Incorporate a legacy character into the narrative, and replacing the origional at least becomes a part of the conversation. Though I suppose they could just make Baron Mordu Dr. Voodoo if they wanted to and have him take over. That kind of works.

I do agree that the "his legacy must be honored" notion likely would be reserved for Boseman (and maybe RDJ). I don't think Chris Evans, as good as he is, necessarily would incite that same reaction. And no disrespect but I'm darn sure Brie Larsen wouldn't. For a variety of reasons Boseman the actor and T'Challa the character are unique... and dealing with that one way or the other would like require a bit more sensitivity than most other heroes. To be blunt, swapping out most other actors from roles probably wouldn't matter as much.

BUt certainly the arguement of Thors story being complete is valid. If Coogler feels there's more T'Challa story to tell then he'll recast T'Challa and that will be that. Shuri will only take the habit if Coogler decides he's ready to move on and transition to her. Like I've said a bunch of times, Coogler will do what Coogler wants to do. Not everyone will get what they want... but those that don't will get over it and move on eventually.

Well Brother Voodoo's brother made an appearance in Doctor Strange so theoretically speaking he could fill the role if he were introduced after Strange is killed offscreen. But either way my point is that the response from audiences would be entirely different and a lot of it is predicated almost solely on the fact that T'Challa is a black male and that Shuri, a black female should take his place. This is not an issue for other (and by other I mean white male) franchises and its a poor message/direction.

I don't see how swapping out Boseman is any better or worse than swapping out Chris Evans if he passed away tragically. Both are icons, in different ways and for different reasons sure, but icons all the same. If audiences would be able to stomach a recasting for one it's nothing more than an agenda if that standard isn't held for the other. T'Challa isn't the first character to tragically lose his actor and he unfortunately won't be the last so while there should obviously be a certain amount of sensitivity in dealing with this issue, to go in the opposite direction of what audiences would want done with Captain America is wrong on multiple levels.

Which is why I agree this decision should be left up to Coogler because while I no doubt have my biases I trust him to make the choice that honors Boseman and T'Challa. Disney shouldn't let an overly emotional and clearly agenda-driven campaign to usurp the role of Black Panther dictate how its story is told especially when considering the amount of money and goodwill on the line. The story of T'Challa is left incomplete and it would truly be a tragedy if it was never concluded properly.

[XPac]

Well Brother Voodoo's brother made an appearance in Doctor Strange so theoretically speaking he could fill the role if he were introduced after Strange is killed offscreen. But either way my point is that the response from audiences would be entirely different and a lot of it is predicated almost solely on the fact that T'Challa is a black male and that Shuri, a black female should take his place. This is not an issue for other (and by other I mean white male) franchises and its a poor message/direction.

I don't see how swapping out Boseman is any better or worse than swapping out Chris Evans if he passed away tragically. Both are icons, in different ways and for different reasons sure, but icons all the same. If audiences would be able to stomach a recasting for one it's nothing more than an agenda if that standard isn't held for the other. T'Challa isn't the first character to tragically lose his actor and he unfortunately won't be the last so while there should obviously be a certain amount of sensitivity in dealing with this issue, to go in the opposite direction of what audiences would want done with Captain America is wrong on multiple levels.

Which is why I agree this decision should be left up to Coogler because while I no doubt have my biases I trust him to make the choice that honors Boseman and T'Challa. Disney shouldn't let an overly emotional and clearly agenda-driven campaign to usurp the role of Black Panther dictate how its story is told especially when considering the amount of money and goodwill on the line. The story of T'Challa is left incomplete and it would truly be a tragedy if it was never concluded properly.

Dr. Voodoo was in Dr. Strange? Wow, I totally am not remembering him. Hopefully they do more with him because I'm totally drawing a blank.

And I think the difference between Boseman and Evan's is the he somewhat became the face of a social moment beyond simply playing a cool character in a cool movie. But admittedly I'm just speculating ... maybe if Evan's died too he would have the same impact. But in either instance, I think the decision to recast or go with a legacy character comes to the table. We'll never know how they would handle Evan's and we still don't know how they will handle Boseman.

And yeah ... no agenda driven campaign will effect the outcome of this movie. It'll be a success no matter what, so upsetting a few people on Twitter won't be the end of the world.

[Ezyo1000]

I mentioned earlier that Shuri led show would be a great idea for Disney+. I also agree that there are viable Black Female characters for the MCU. It doesn't have to be a movie and again, Disney+ plus is a viable platform to do a series Like Daughters of the Dragon, Moon Girl or Ironheart.

Shuri is well established enough that she can make it on her own merits.

A Shuri led show would allow for her to develop so much more and give time to grow as a character, and ,*if* the decision came to have her take the mantle on the future the show gives her time to mature. Plus we would get more Wakanda tech which would be nice

[chief12d]

Dr. Voodoo was in Dr. Strange? Wow, I totally am not remembering him. Hopefully they do more with him because I'm totally drawing a blank.

And I think the difference between Boseman and Evan's is the he somewhat became the face of a social moment beyond simply playing a cool character in a cool movie. But admittedly I'm just speculating ... maybe if Evan's died too he would have the same impact. But in either instance, I think the decision to recast or go with a legacy character comes to the table. We'll never know how they would handle Evan's and we still don't know how they will handle Boseman.

And yeah ... no agenda driven campaign will effect the outcome of this movie. It'll be a success no matter what, so upsetting a few people on Twitter won't be the end of the world.

Yea it wasn't Jericho himself, it was his brother. So I think that's a pretty heavy hint he'll end up appearing in Doctor Strange 2 or 3 down the road. He's a really cool character and as far as the comics are concerned I'd like him and T'Challa to hang out more often lol.

I can respect that, these are pretty unprecedented times we live in so we can only hope that no matter who the character is, Disney does it's best to respect the actor/actress and the character they brought to life.

It's only when the blatant agendas (as well-intentioned as they may be) enter the fray that I think collectively we need to look at how we're responding to these situations. Ultimately I think regardless of where things go Black Panther 2 will good, even if personally I don't get to see the arc of T'Challa completed. I'd like to think no matter where people fall on the issue Coogler and Feige are given the space and benefit of the doubt to make the creative choices that work out the best.

[chief12d]

A Shuri led show would allow for her to develop so much more and give time to grow as a character, and ,*if* the decision came to have her take the mantle on the future the show gives her time to mature. Plus we would get more Wakanda tech which would be nice

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if there were plans for the second slate of Disney+ shows to include a Shuri or Agents of Wakanda-style show. It would've seemed like a natural direction to go in given how T'Challa has the strongest, most dynamic supporting cast in the MCU. Shuri easily could carry 8 episodes alongside Okoye and M'Baku.

But seeing how most of the shows were for characters that had extensive roles in previous movies or were appearing for the first time, Disney probably would've wanted to wait until maybe after BP2 to go that route. A Shuri show would've been the perfect place to see her in her own element while evolving to a point where she could possibly take on the mantle at the end of T'Challa's trilogy. A great way to have a black female-centric superhero project too.

[taozen]

For black boys it would.

Without T'challa, they will have, let me check my MCU movie notes real quick....

ummm

hmmm

I guess Blade in 2038 lol? I think one of the Eternals is black.

Even in the own BP franchise, all you have left is M'baku. W'kabi is a traitor, Killmonger is evil and dead. Zuri is dead. The rest of the cast is black female (Okoye, Nakia, Shuri, Ramonda)

T'challa got one movie and then 15 minutes of screen time spread out between three Avengers films. His story is no where near done.

I agree with you. So many times Black boys are ignored and overlooked. You see how a lot of Black male creators are really sensitive to other marginalized groups such as with Black female representation in their work. For example, Coogler placed Black women in the forefront in his movie and on his staff/crew. In the film, Shuri is made the uber genius. Okoye is the general and is stated as the greatest warrior Wakanda has. In the Netflix Luke Cage series, Black female characters have significant rolls in the series with Simone Missick, Alfre Woodard, Karen Pittman and Rosario Dawson are give significant rolls. This type of representation is important. Besides M'Baku, what other significant Black male character is there in Black Panther film franchise.

I do find it interesting that so many people have been and are now clamoring for Shuri to take the mantle. From the beginning some were wanting this. I like the character of Shuri and I believe her film characterization is more likable than the comic book version. She was so many fans favorite character in the film. But I think that people often forget that Black boy need to see Black male heroes in their lives.

Finally I do see that there are so few roles for actors of color that everyone is fighting for the scraps. I think that this is the most heartbreaking aspect the situation. I thought that after Black Panther we would see more big budget action-adventure, scifi and fantasy movies but guess what? That has not happened at all. I thought that with the box office success of Black Panther, we would see more from Hollywood. Unfortunately that has not been the case.

[Ekie]

Ironically enough it's both an easy decision and a hard one.

Hard in that people will complain no matter what. Easy in that because everyone will complain no matter what you do, you might as well just do whatever the heck you want because you'll get complaints no matter what. So in a way, having your back against the wall this way is actually quite liberating.

Just to add to the name of list of potential replacements... I have heard some fun theories about a resurrected and redeemed Killmonger. On paper that would make zero sense for a variety of reasons. But I can't help shake the idea that it's sort of a fun idea if they could somehow make it work. I do think actor wise Jordan would get less backlash than anyone aside from maybe Letitia. Not that I think this is in any way, shape or form likely... just a fun idea floating out there.

None of these ideas are fun to me.
If they don't recast the role and kill off Tchalla you understand that that affects all other mediums right?
So are you going to start buying shuri Comics now? Killmonger as the Black Panther comics? Nakia comics? Okoye as the main character comics?

Help me if I'm confused but who's franchises this?
God forbid but if the guy who plays Spider-Man died would you be clamoring for Mary Jane to become the new Spider-Man? If Batman would you be clamoring for Jim Gordon or Batgirl to be the lead of all future movies?

This conversation makes absolutely no sense to me.there's really only one logical thing to do when the franchise is based around one single character.

[Cville]

None of these ideas are fun to me.
If they don't recast the role and kill off Tchalla you understand that that affects all other mediums right?
So are you going to start buying shuri Comics now? Killmonger as the Black Panther comics? Nakia comics? Okoye as the main character comics?

Help me if I'm confused but who's franchises this?
God forbid but if the guy who plays Spider-Man died would you be clamoring for Mary Jane to become the new Spider-Man? If Batman would you be clamoring for Jim Gordon or Batgirl to be the lead of all future movies?

This conversation makes absolutely no sense to me.there's really only one logical thing to do when the franchise is based around one single character.

If Tom died, I'd push for live Miles to replace him,

[chief12d]

I agree with you. So many times Black boys are ignored and overlooked. You see how a lot of Black male creators are really sensitive to other marginalized groups such as with Black female representation in their work. For example, Coogler placed Black women in the forefront in his movie and on his staff/crew. In the film, Shuri is made the uber genius. Okoye is the general and is stated as the greatest warrior Wakanda has. In the Netflix Luke Cage series, Black female characters have significant rolls in the series with Simone Missick, Alfre Woodard, Karen Pittman and Rosario Dawson are give significant rolls. This type of representation is important. Besides M'Baku, what other significant Black male character is there in Black Panther film franchise.

I do find it interesting that so many people have been and are now clamoring for Shuri to take the mantle. From the beginning some were wanting this. I like the character of Shuri and I believe her film characterization is more likable than the comic book version. She was so many fans favorite character in the film. But I think that people often forget that Black boy need to see Black male heroes in their lives.

Finally I do see that there are so few roles for actors of color that everyone is fighting for the scraps. I think that this is the most heartbreaking aspect the situation. I thought that after Black Panther we would see more big budget action-adventure, scifi and fantasy movies but guess what? That has not happened at all. I thought that with the box office success of Black Panther, we would see more from Hollywood. Unfortunately that has not been the case.

I mean the effects aren't going to be immediate, the movie came out just 2 years ago. Though as of late I think there has been some movement. Fantasy and sci-fi books prominently featuring POC are at various stages of discussion regarding live action adaptations or have been outright confirmed. The Green Bone Saga, focusing on a completely East Asian cast is being adapted to TV. Children of Blood and Bone, one of the biggest fantasy YA books in recent memory, is based all around pre-colonial Nigerian culture and getting an adaptation by Lucasfilm.

The author of Rage of Dragons, a critically acclaimed military fantasy series inspired by South Africa, has stated he's in talks with numerous studios for an adaptation of his works. Binti by Nnedi Okorafor is getting a Hulu series while Wild Seed by the supremely talented Octavia Butler is getting an adaptation by Viola Davis working with Amazon.

And funny enough, all of these projects but Rage of Dragons feature a female lead. Though Black Leopard, Red Wolf (inspired by Sahelian and Ethiopian medieval cultures) had its adaptation rights purchased by Michael B Jordan himself and as such also has a lot of potential (and actually features a bisexual male lead). It's impossible to say how much Black Panther's world shaking success had to do with these projects getting the time of day, but I do think it played a role, even if small.