Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[XPac]

Difference between X-Men and Black Panther is that X-Men is a team book. It is designed that way. All those characters are generally enhanced and each theoretically can have their own book or arc focused on them.

Storm wasn't created to support Cyclops for example. Wolverine wasn't created to support Iceman.

Shuri/Okoye/Nakia/Zuri/T'chaka/Ramunda/Hunter/ect were all directly created to enhance and support T'challa's story.

No different than say... Spider-Man and Mary Jane/Jonah/Gwen/ect


I mean, I am a fan of the Mythos and the "world." But that world crumbles without T'challa. IMO of course.

There are many in this thread that are more "Team Wakanda" vs "Team T'challa." Which is fine, but I am not one of them.

I think 99% of the comic book mythos do crumble without the main character as they are the core of said universe. That said, if a universe is developed enough, it can become it's own thing indepenent of that character. The most obvious example is the Spider-verse... Sony is creating an entired shared universe without Spider-Man. So it's possible. Batman is another example. We see plenty of Batman related movies and shows without Batman actually in it. Birds of Prey, Joker, etc.

The question then is whether or not the world of Wakanda is at the point. It's not as developed as the Spider-verse or the Bat Family, which have obviously had decades and decades to flesh themselves out. But can in theory survive without the actual Black Panther. Is there enough there? Probably too soon to tell... though in the case of the MCU at least, marvel has enough of a track record to where ANYTHING they do will likely suceed at this point.

None of which means they HAVE to do anything without T'Challa of course. We're just speaking hypothetically.

[chief12d]

Difference between X-Men and Black Panther is that X-Men is a team book. It is designed that way. All those characters are generally enhanced and each theoretically can have their own book or arc focused on them.

Storm wasn't created to support Cyclops for example. Wolverine wasn't created to support Iceman.

Shuri/Okoye/Nakia/Zuri/T'chaka/Ramunda/Hunter/ect were all directly created to enhance and support T'challa's story.

No different than say... Spider-Man and Mary Jane/Jonah/Gwen/ect


I mean, I am a fan of the Mythos and the "world." But that world crumbles without T'challa. IMO of course.

There are many in this thread that are more "Team Wakanda" vs "Team T'challa." Which is fine, but I am not one of them.

To be fair to Devaishwarya’s point though, this is a phenomenon you see in solo franchises too. Plenty of people are more a fan of Batman’s supporting cast and spin-off characters than the main hero himself. Same goes for Peter and the whole Spider-Man Family. People prefer Miles or Spider-Gwen, etc. The difference is that those franchises can support multiple books to give everyone what they want. But if you’re a fan of Shuri, the Dora, Kaspar Cole, or Killmonger first, you don’t have many avenues to enjoy them outside of the main Black Panther book. So the test in the future is to see if the world of Wakanda is bigger than a single character and while I’d eventually lose interest if T’Challa wasn’t the face of the franchise, I unfortunately think it could with enough push.

[KingNomarch]

And we all know what kind of pushback that would get

I remember back when it was only rumored that he'd be the star of ITSV ppl were livid. If he ever becomes Spider-Man in the MCU I'm expecting the same reaction from when he was first announced back in 2011.

[Nate Grey]

Question for the gang:


Let's assume BP2 was done and finished and was due out right now.

Would you pay $29.99 + a D+ subscription to watch it?

Or would you wait until it was free on D+ in December?

Or buy the media eventually?

Or would you prefer it wsa pushed back until theaters are "normal?"


aka... assume the movie was Black Panther 2 instead of Black Widow and was ready to go this second. Would you pay for it Mulan style or wait or wish it would be pushed by Wonder Woman style?

Its the only movie I would pay for it "Mulan style". I'd gladly eat that $29.99 for T'challa. Anyone else including Mulan?

[XPac]

To be fair to Devaishwarya’s point though, this is a phenomenon you see in solo franchises too. Plenty of people are more a fan of Batman’s supporting cast and spin-off characters than the main hero himself. Same goes for Peter and the whole Spider-Man Family. People prefer Miles or Spider-Gwen, etc. The difference is that those franchises can support multiple books to give everyone what they want. But if you’re a fan of Shuri, the Dora, Kaspar Cole, or Killmonger first, you don’t have many avenues to enjoy them outside of the main Black Panther book. So the test in the future is to see if the world of Wakanda is bigger than a single character and while I’d eventually lose interest if T’Challa wasn’t the face of the franchise, I unfortunately think it could with enough push.

I think for the MCU, it almost seems inevitable that many of the franchises will live on beyond the main character. I think unlike the comics, in the MCU heroes can have stories with a definative beginning, middle, and end with most of the characters having viable legacy characters to to extend the franchise. We're seeing that happen with many of the original Avengers. Sam is already Captain America. We know a She-Hulk project is down the pike. And Jane is at least sharing the next Thor movie, if not flat out taking it over. And all the next gen marvel heroes mostly have legacy characters woven into their stories as well (ie Shuri, Monica Rameu, Stature).

So I do think in marvels mind, the World of Wakanda will inevitably extend beyond T'Challa. That might not be NOW of course... it's entirely possible (if not probable) that Coogler isn't done with T'Challa yet and will hold off on replacing him for another decade. Obviously that's up to him. But I think the seeds for T'Challa and almost every other franchise seems to be there to extend beyond the initial core character.

I think marvel realizes they can do things in the movie format that they can't do in comics. Because the MCU, at least so far, seems to be sucessful no matter what they do, they can take real chances that the comics likely would never take and stories the comics would never tell for real (by real I mean Stark actually dying and Steve retiring without coming back in 6 months).

[MindofShadow]

To be fair to Devaishwarya‘a point though, this is a phenomenon you see in solo franchises too. Plenty of people are more a fan of Batman’s supporting cast and spin-off characters than the main hero himself. Same goes for Peter and the whole Spider-Man Family. People prefer Miles or Spider-Gwen, etc. The difference is that those franchises can support multiple books to give everyone what they want. But if you’re a fan of Shuri, the Dora, Kaspar Cole, or Killmonger first, you don’t have many avenues to enjoy them outside of the main Black Panther book. So the test in the future is to see if the world of Wakanda is bigger than a single character and while I’d eventually lose interest if T’Challa wasn’t the face of the franchise, I unfortunately think it could survive without him.

Miles wasn't made to be Parkers support staff. He was created to be a legacy character. That is different.

Spider-Gwen is the exact same way. OG Gwen was a support character. Spider-Gwen was brought over to be a spin off/legacy type. Those characters were designed to do their own thing.

Shuri was a bit supporting character for the first... 41 issues of her existence. They tried to treat her like a "Robin" by having her take over the mantle and then run her the same time as T'challa dressed in the same suit and it just didn't work (sales/support wise).

And the thing about the Bat fam and the spider-fam is that they made the spinoffs their own characters. IF Miles was just black Peter Parker or if Gwen was just Parker with boobs, it wouldn't have worked. They changed their costumes to be distinct, gave Miles different powers and made them actual characters so they could have actual fans instead of just Parker's fans transferred over.

OG BP Shuri is just T'challa was boobs. That is why they created this Griot stuff and why the MCU made her a tech genius instead (and then the comics copied). You can't just clone the main hero and expect everyone to like them.

I'll concede Batman though. But damn... BP mythos in the comics aint even at like... Daredevil level... getting to Batman level is a damn pipe dream lol. BP isn't even a solidified seller by himself.

[Overhazard]

Question for the gang:


Let's assume BP2 was done and finished and was due out right now.

Would you pay $29.99 + a D+ subscription to watch it?

Or would you wait until it was free on D+ in December?

Or buy the media eventually?

Or would you prefer it wsa pushed back until theaters are "normal?"


aka... assume the movie was Black Panther 2 instead of Black Widow and was ready to go this second. Would you pay for it Mulan style or wait or wish it would be pushed by Wonder Woman style?

I'd wait. I'm already paying for a streaming service, I'm not going to pay more. That's like a DLC thing.

[DigiCom]

I agree with you. So many times Black boys are ignored and overlooked.

I've actually noticed this myself. How many new young male heroes (of color or otherwise) can you name out of Marvel in the last 5 years or so?

(Before you mention Miles... he was created in 2011.)

Meanwhile, there have been a spate of young heroines at Marvel, ranging from the new Ms. Marvel to Moon Girl.

[MindofShadow]

I remember back when it was only rumored that he'd be the star of ITSV ppl were livid. If he ever becomes Spider-Man in the MCU I'm expecting the same reaction from when he was first announced back in 2011.

I think Sony is testing the waters with the video game. See what the reaction is.

Spider-verse worked. If the video game works too, I think it will happen.

BUT

I think it will happen in conjunction with Parker. Spider-Man is Sony's only cash cow movie wise and they are trying like hell to spin off a whole universe.

I think Miles will get bit/be teased HEAVILY in the third spider-man movie so they can spin him off from there as needed. It will be very similar to the video game.

It will let Parker age into college kids while allowing them to reset back to high school with Miles if need be.

[MindofShadow]

I've actually noticed this myself. How many new young male heroes (of color or otherwise) can you name out of Marvel in the last 5 years or so?

(Before you mention Miles... he was created in 2011.)

Meanwhile, there have been a spate of young heroines at Marvel, ranging from the new Ms. Marvel to Moon Girl.

The newest Patriot is all I got off the top of my head.

[Ascended]

Question for the gang:

Let's assume BP2 was done and finished and was due out right now.

Would you pay $29.99 + a D+ subscription to watch it?

Or would you wait until it was free on D+ in December?

Or buy the media eventually?

Or would you prefer it wsa pushed back until theaters are "normal?"

aka... assume the movie was Black Panther 2 instead of Black Widow and was ready to go this second. Would you pay for it Mulan style or wait or wish it would be pushed by Wonder Woman style?

Interesting question. I'd say "Mulan" style, absolutely.

I'd definitely buy the blu-ray regardless; I always get the nice HD versions with the extra extras for Marvel films. I actually have a whole little shelf dedicated to the MCU in my living room. Even have some of the Netflix Defenders seasons on disc (those are hard to find).

I'm not a fan of paying for a movie when I already sub to Disney+. What's the point of paying a monthly fee if they're gonna make me pay again? And that's just for a single day rental or something right? I mean, I'll spend more than $30 taking the family to the theaters but its the principal of the thing. So normally I wouldn't rent a movie from D+. However, we're assuming Chadwick had passed and everything else right? No way could I wait, I'd have to make an exception and rent that sucker right now. Hell, I'd probably rent it even if Chadwick hadn't died. Love me some T'Challa!

No way would I want it pushed back until theaters are "normal." I know there's economics to take into account and all, but I'm not interested in waiting months for things to return to normal just so those guys can charge me quadruple for the cost of popcorn and I can struggle to hear the movie's dialogue over everyone talking. If the movie is ready now, and there's a way to get it to viewers, I'm not inclined to twiddle my thumbs for 6-8 months (or longer) just so AMC can make a little cash off me. As much as I don't want to give Disney+ more money when I already sub, I *really* don't want to wait even longer to watch a film just for the theater's sake.

[DigiCom]

The newest Patriot is all I got off the top of my head.

Given that he's gotten such a small push I forgot he existed, I think I can rest my case.

[XPac]

Interesting question. I'd say "Mulan" style, absolutely.

I'd definitely buy the blu-ray regardless; I always get the nice HD versions with the extra extras for Marvel films. I actually have a whole little shelf dedicated to the MCU in my living room. Even have some of the Netflix Defenders seasons on disc (those are hard to find).

I'm not a fan of paying for a movie when I already sub to Disney+. What's the point of paying a monthly fee if they're gonna make me pay again? And that's just for a single day rental or something right? I mean, I'll spend more than $30 taking the family to the theaters but its the principal of the thing. So normally I wouldn't rent a movie from D+. However, we're assuming Chadwick had passed and everything else right? No way could I wait, I'd have to make an exception and rent that sucker right now. Hell, I'd probably rent it even if Chadwick hadn't died. Love me some T'Challa!

No way would I want it pushed back until theaters are "normal." I know there's economics to take into account and all, but I'm not interested in waiting months for things to return to normal just so those guys can charge me quadruple for the cost of popcorn and I can struggle to hear the movie's dialogue over everyone talking. If the movie is ready now, and there's a way to get it to viewers, I'm not inclined to twiddle my thumbs for 6-8 months (or longer) just so AMC can make a little cash off me. As much as I don't want to give Disney+ more money when I already sub, I *really* don't want to wait even longer to watch a film just for the theater's sake.

From my understanding, once you pay the $30 bucks, it just becomes a normal part of Disney plus you can watch as often as you like. In the least it's not a one day rental.

For me at least, I have a couple friends pitching in to split the cost of Mulan as sort of a movie night. So I can eat the cost. It is kind of annoying... but it arguably is still a better value than going to the threater since you can rewatch in it as often as you like with as many people as you can fit in your living room.

[XPac]

Given that he's gotten such a small push I forgot he existed, I think I can rest my case.

Considering the previous Patriot magically vanished getting a new one barely breaks even. Though Eli did show up in Flashback for like a second in Empyre.

But I think what's happening is pretty obvious. Comics historically are dominated by white male characters... to compensate (or overcompensate depending on your perspective) you basically pump out new minority female characters. There's a cold logic to it I guess.

[Ascended]

From my understanding, once you pay the $30 bucks, it just becomes a normal part of Disney plus you can watch as often as you like. In the least it's not a one day rental.

For me at least, I have a couple friends pitching in to split the cost of Mulan as sort of a movie night. So I can eat the cost. It is kind of annoying... but it arguably is still a better value than going to the threater since you can rewatch in it as often as you like with as many people as you can fit in your living room.

Oh okay, that's not as bad a deal as I thought.

I'd still buy the blu-ray anyway. No way would I let BP2 be the first MCU movie *not* on my shelf.

Considering the previous Patriot magically vanished getting a new one barely breaks even. Though Eli did show up in Flashback for like a second in Empyre.

But I think what's happening is pretty obvious. Comics historically are dominated by white male characters... to compensate (or overcompensate depending on your perspective) you basically pump out new minority female characters. There's a cold logic to it I guess.

That's exactly what it is. The Big 2 have realized they are way behind when it comes to representation but their famous, big name heroes are almost all white straight males, so now they're trying to balance things out by making most of their new characters minorities. And conceptually that's great, I'm glad they're trying to fix this problem (which should've been a focus for them a long time ago but better late than never, I guess).

But I think there's two major problems they keep running into; first off is that most comic fans go to the LCS for those famous, long standing characters. We're not gonna stop reading Spider-Man so we can buy some new, fresh face we know nothing about and have no emotional attachment to, so finding sustainable audiences in the direct market for the new characters is a challenge. And secondly, a lot of these new characters.....they're designed with representation in mind more than making a good character. We're not gonna buy a book just because the character is a PoC, we want a *good* character, and a lot of the time it's the race/gender/religion/whatever that the character is built around and hung on and that usually just does not make for a engaging, well rounded hero; at best it makes for a thin, two dimensional character with little to offer beyond the "diversity checkbox" and at worst it's just pandering.

Thank the gods we have some exceptions like Kamala Khan and Naomi. Those are examples of how to broaden your representation without making diversity the only thing the character hangs on.

Like someone said a page or three back; we're not Black Panther fans just because T'Challa is black.