Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[XPac]

And no one cares about those characters, the new status quo is also stupid because he added a lot of racists stereotypes and misogyny that didnt exist. The çja ge was about as needed as his stupid retcon that T'Challa spied on the avengers to learn from them because he is a scientist at heart. Completely unnecessary and didn't add anything positive to the mythos

The fact that they were using young teenage girls to act as political pawns by being wives in training is pretty darn mysogynist ... and I don't recall Shuri having any 16 year old husbands in training during her tenure as queen. Thy mysogyny existed before Coates... he just brought that fact to light again before ending it.

[DigiCom]

Funny how NOBODY mentions the fact that T'Challa was supposedly dying on a brain aneurysm at the end of the Priest run. Somehow that particular story bit is perfectly fine to keep unresolved. But the Dora Milaje?

"We need to fix this years-old plot point! The character is damaged forever unless it is addressed!"

Funny about that. Reminds me of Geoff Johns "fixing" Aquaman's portrayal in the late 70s Super Friends cartoons... despite the fact that he had been depicted in the comics (and the Justice League cartoon) as an utter badass for years.

Or the INSANE number of times writers have tried to "fix" Hawkman.

Or hell, whatever the status-quo with Lockjaw is these days. He's gone back & forth from being a dog to a mutated Inhuman, all because writer after writer wants to "fix" him. And his hometown moved more often than a traveling circus...

Again, NONE of the new readers that will keep a book alive know or care, unless the writer tells them.

"Fixing" characters. Sheesh. What an utter waste of panel space.

Do you know how Priest "fixed" T'Challa, after literally YEARS of being a D-List character? By doing this:



Do I need to say more?

[XPac]

Funny how NOBODY mentions the fact that T'Challa was supposedly dying on a brain aneurysm at the end of the Priest run. Somehow that particular story bit is perfectly fine to keep unresolved. But the Dora Milaje?

"We need to fix this years-old plot point! The character is damaged forever unless it is addressed!"

Funny about that. Reminds me of Geoff Johns "fixing" Aquaman's portrayal in the late 70s Super Friends cartoons... despite the fact that he had been depicted in the comics (and the Justice League cartoon) as an utter badass for years.

Or the INSANE number of times writers have tried to "fix" Hawkman.

Or hell, whatever the status-quo with Lockjaw is these days. He's gone back & forth from being a dog to a mutated Inhuman, all because writer after writer wants to "fix" him. And his hometown moved more often than a traveling circus...

Again, NONE of the new readers that will keep a book alive know or care, unless the writer tells them.

"Fixing" characters. Sheesh. What an utter waste of panel space.

Do you know how Priest "fixed" T'Challa, after literally YEARS of being a D-List character? By doing this:



Do I need to say more?

I don't think anyone thinks the Dora thing damaged T'Challa forever... but it was something the author clearly didn't like which could be used as both a catalyst for the first season of his book, in addition to generating an entire spin off series.

If you're going to do a series on Doras, that aspect is a valid plot thread to incorporate.

[Ezyo1000]

I doubt anyone cares about the rape camps, but people seem to want that retconned for whatever reason.

I'll agree retconning something JUST for the sake of retconning something isn't necessarily worth it. But as part of a story you're telling, it's fair game. Similar to Priests retcon of T'Challa being a spy... it didn't necessarily NEED to be retconned purely for the sake of being retconnned. But it was more than that... it was part of a story he was telling. And in Coates case, the issues with the Doras were obviously the catalyst not just for the first season of his book but for a later mini. Altering the nature of the Doras was a catalyst for telling his story and fleshing out a bunch of red shirts into actual characters. Eliminating the wives in training was a by product of that, but it wasn't the sole reason it was done.

Yeah because the rape camps are exact racist stereotypes that happened in 2016.. not 1998.. and the rape camps go completely against Wakandas entire basis. Your not even comparing the same things at all. Especially since the DM issue was clarified from the get go what T'Challa felt about it, and Hudlin reinforced that. Plus you know, what we were shown on panel was T'Challa never taking advantage of it. And Priest retcon about T'Challa spying to to elevate HIM and it was to establish his character. The Dora thing was just isht talking that amounted to nothing.

[XPac]

Yeah because the rape camps are exact racist stereotypes that happened in 2016.. not 1998.. and the rape camps go completely against Wakandas entire basis. Your not even comparing the same things at all. Especially since the DM issue was clarified from the get go what T'Challa felt about it, and Hudlin reinforced that. Plus you know, what we were shown on panel was T'Challa never taking advantage of it. And Priest retcon about T'Challa spying to to elevate HIM and it was to establish his character. The Dora thing was just isht talking that amounted to nothing.

I agree... the rape camps aren't the same thing. They're WORSE.

THe rape camps are a bunch of criminals acting wrongly. Criminals that are killed off.

But the whole Dora thing is freaking on T'Challa... it's the main character of the series taking a bunch of 16 year olds as wives in training.

That's the difference to me. I don't care if a book shows a bunch of criminals commiting crimes. That's what criminals are in the books for. But I do care that T'Challa is using underage minors to act as wives in training as a political tool. It's stupid and objectionable on multiple levels... he couldn't at least have gotten grown women? And the fact that it's only apparently done for men and not women, as Shuri has no husbands in training just adds to the questionable nature of the whole thing.

Either way, it's gone and more importantly it can't come back. Ignoring something just means someone on any given day can decide to NOT ignore it. But breaking the system means that it can't really be used again. It's done.

[chief12d]

Rise potentially could have been an opportunity to completely retcon the Dora being wives out of the mythos if they wanted. Retcon or not, I wouldn't have complained.

But I suppose to a degree having a few shady aspects gives Wakanda a bit of character... it's near utopian on the surface, but it as a few skeletons on it's closet. Priest did a lot of that with stuff like the Doras and T'CHaka's secret police.

Yea it was a missed opportunity for Rise to erase it but seeing as the main book was making the romantic subtext (or lack thereof) between the crown and the Dora a major aspect of the story, Narcisse probably couldn’t retcon it even if he wanted to. I don’t think it was ever a good idea for the Dora to rebel under the circumstances they did and most of the icky issues surrounding their existence could’ve been wiped away with a single throwaway line.

It’s one thing for Wakandans to be flawed it’s another for them to have a system that forces teenage girls into becoming wives/warriors for a grown ass man. I’m a huge advocate of Wakandans having dickish tendencies so as to make a strong contrast between T’Challa, but there are ways to do that which don’t have anything to do with sexuality or kids. It was weird when Priest did it back in the 90s and it shouldn’t even be a topic of discussion after Coates’ run (at least as far as the Dora are concerned).

[skyvolt2000]

Hudlin did it fifteen years ago. The ONLY people who care are part of the same insular audience of fans (or unfans) that think Continuity is King™.

The new reader won't care! To them, the Dora Milaje are kickass bald amazons who wear red armor.

Remember how upset the news sites were that Ayo wasn't in a lesbian relationship in the movie?

Do you think any of the millions (and millions!) of people who saw the film gave a damn? They saw a badass movie with a strong story, beholden to nothing but itself (and CA:CW, I suppose) that didn't "fix" a bloody thing.

If it was such an issue- Marvel would NOT have allowed Dora toys to be made in the toy line recently.

Marvel and especially Disney was not going to have 16 year old wives in training in a toy line.

They got made because Disney saw a strong all female attack force and made figures.


Trying to go back 15 years is nothing more than pandering to unfans and feminist looking for a reason to hate a black man and view him as a sexual predator.

[DigiCom]

Either way, it's gone and more importantly it can't come back. Ignoring something just means someone on any given day can decide to NOT ignore it. But breaking the system means that it can't really be used again. It's done.

Until some writer down the road "fixes" it....

[skyvolt2000]

Yea it was a missed opportunity for Rise to erase it but seeing as the main book was making the romantic subtext (or lack thereof) between the crown and the Dora a major aspect of the story, Narcisse probably couldn’t retcon it even if he wanted to. I don’t think it was ever a good idea for the Dora to rebel under the circumstances they did and most of the icky issues surrounding their existence could’ve been wiped away with a single throwaway line.

It’s one thing for Wakandans to be flawed it’s another for them to have a system that forces teenage girls into becoming wives/warriors for a grown ass man. I’m a huge advocate of Wakandans having dickish tendencies so as to make a strong contrast between T’Challa, but there are ways to do that which don’t have anything to do with sexuality or kids. It was weird when Priest did it back in the 90s and it shouldn’t even be a topic of discussion after Coates’ run (at least as far as the Dora are concerned).

Remember Priest was fighting editors over that book.

Whose to say an editor didn't toss that in because it's "expected" an African King to have a collection of women.

[XPac]

Yea it was a missed opportunity for Rise to erase it but seeing as the main book was making the romantic subtext (or lack thereof) between the crown and the Dora a major aspect of the story, Narcisse probably couldn’t retcon it even if he wanted to. I don’t think it was ever a good idea for the Dora to rebel under the circumstances they did and most of the icky issues surrounding their existence could’ve been wiped away with a single throwaway line.

It’s one thing for Wakandans to be flawed it’s another for them to have a system that forces teenage girls into becoming wives/warriors for a grown ass man. I’m a huge advocate of Wakandans having dickish tendencies so as to make a strong contrast between T’Challa, but there are ways to do that which don’t have anything to do with sexuality or kids. It was weird when Priest did it back in the 90s and it shouldn’t even be a topic of discussion after Coates’ run (at least as far as the Dora are concerned).

I don't necessarily disagree that we could do without Wakandan shadiness involving teenage girls.

It sucks that T'Challa somehow has his mythos associated with teenage girls. The Storm Graphic Novel by Eric Jerome Dickey had T'Challa hooking up with a freaking 12 year old Storm. Geez... how does something like that even make print? At least T'Challa doesn't hook up with the Doras... but it's still not a good look on him. So yeah... like I said, had Rise retconned that I would not have complained.

Though maybe you're right in that it effects sme of Nakia's backstory too much. I don't know.

[XPac]

Until some writer down the road "fixes" it....

I can see someone fixing it so that they're guards like in the MCU. But unless they becomes brides in training on the big screen, I don't lose any sleep over that aspect ever again returning to the comics.

[Ezyo1000]

The fact that they were using young teenage girls to act as political pawns by being wives in training is pretty darn mysogynist ... and I don't recall Shuri having any 16 year old husbands in training during her tenure as queen. Thy mysogyny existed before Coates... he just brought that fact to light again before ending it.

Riiiight because T'Challa treated then like wives in training and not like bodyguards since he had trained them since they were young and it was ceremonial only. Plus you know, Hudlin retconned them to be adult's and everyone had them appear as teenagers, and the reason that Shuri didn't have husband's in training is because that aspect of that position is archaic and not followed..

Where I live it is illegal for my wife to open my mail without my permission, it's also illegal for her to go fishing in a boat, by herself, on Sunday... But you know that old **** is ignored because it no longer applies or is a thing anymore and it doesn't need to to go through a whole change for lawmakers cause it's ignored. Same thing with the DM. But Coates had to change it.. and add a ton of racial stereotypes (funny how you keep ignoring this part of my post) and gender inequality that didn't exist to tell this oppressed group that needed to break free..

[DigiCom]

Remember Priest was fighting editors over that book.

Whose to say an editor didn't toss that in because it's "expected" an African King to have a collection of women.

Priest, actually.

The concept of the Dora Milaje (Wakandan for "Adored Ones") evolved out of the brilliant work of Panther scribe Don McGregor, who theorized Wakanda was actually made up of a great many indigenous tribes, and that not all tribes liked each other. Joe and Jimmy just thought it'd be cool to have Panther travel with a pair of 6-foot tall gorgeous women, and I certainly agreed, but the order of the Dora Milaje, a kind of nun/wife-in-training deal, gave us a foot in both of the worlds the Panther struggled to maintain peace between: the modern and the tribal.

http://digitalpriest.com/legacy/comi...her/start.html

You'll notice at no point does he even HINT at a sexual component. They are more like political hostages... highly trained killer hostages.

If anything, Priest's only error was making them too young (biologically, if not physically). If they'd been 25, I doubt anyone would have batted an eye.

[Ezyo1000]

I agree... the rape camps aren't the same thing. They're WORSE.

THe rape camps are a bunch of criminals acting wrongly. Criminals that are killed off.

But the whole Dora thing is freaking on T'Challa... it's the main character of the series taking a bunch of 16 year olds as wives in training.

That's the difference to me. I don't care if a book shows a bunch of criminals commiting crimes. That's what criminals are in the books for. But I do care that T'Challa is using underage minors to act as wives in training as a political tool. It's stupid and objectionable on multiple levels... he couldn't at least have gotten grown women? And the fact that it's only apparently done for men and not women, as Shuri has no husbands in training just adds to the questionable nature of the whole thing.

Either way, it's gone and more importantly it can't come back. Ignoring something just means someone on any given day can decide to NOT ignore it. But breaking the system means that it can't really be used again. It's done.

Again... And I'm going to say this one more time so you understand.. THEY WERE GROWN WOMEB AS RETCONNED BY HUDLIN, HE WENT SO FAR AS TO HAVE FLAG OF OUR FATHER'S SHOWCASE GROWN ASS WOMEN FOLLOWING AZZARI. Do you get it now? It was retconned and everyone followed it. So... Yeah it no longer involved teen girl's because Hudlin immediately retconned it the very next solo

[DigiCom]

I can see someone fixing it so that they're guards like in the MCU. But unless they becomes brides in training on the big screen, I don't lose any sleep over that aspect ever again returning to the comics.

Experience has shown otherwise. Hell, Marvel just announced they are addressing the "mystery of Donald Blake" for the first time... tidily ignoring the OTHER times he's been "fixed".

Someday, someone is going to come up with what they think is an absolutely BRILLIANT story that reconciles the Priest version, Hudlin version, and the MCU version, and will spend an arc or two "fixing" it. Because looking back is all people seem to want to do.

Hell... what's the best BP spinoff of the last few years?

A miniseries that "fixes" his origin...