Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[XPac]

one that call would be way weaker then what we are seeing with T'Challa, and two I bet she wouldn't be recast simply because her story isn't done. They would replace her, tell her story to completion, then pass it on. As it should be. A character should not be halted in their character arc and progression because the actor passes. Especially when it's very early in said characters story and career. Its a Very simple concept that I don't understand why it's so hard to understand. Yes they could replace him with Shuri, but that requires a mountain load of retcon changing and is a disservice to the title character. Black panther is T'Challa. Just because it's a mantle in the retcon from Hudlin does not erase the fact he has been BP for 50+ year's and finally got his debut on the silver screen and it's immediately followed by calls to replace him with a character who has been around for 15 years and held the title for 6... Hardly a fair trade and not how you push the legacy character forward especially when they arent set up to even take the mantle

Making Shuri BP takes no retconning at all. Merely requires her to grow into a role she should have been raised for to begin with. Regardless of whether or not T'Challa ever actually dies again, she should be prepared for this especially after Killmonger. This isn't a retcon so much as it's simply writing the royal family intelligently. T'challa has died twice ... they should be smart enough to have a viable line of succession through and beyond Shuri.

But again, if Coogler isn't done with T'challa he can recast. It's up to him.

[XPac]

No, I'm explaining how easy it is to address why he doesn't have multiple suits of armor. Not everything needs to be handled in a complicated story. Sometimes "tried it, didn't like it" is enough.

Honestly it looked to me like you are making an arguement for not enhancing the habit a viable tactic. Guess I misinterpreted that.

"There was a time when I thought that enhancing the habit was a viable tactic, but I discovered it was too limiting."

Done.

NEXT!

[Ezyo1000]

Yea at face value I just think it's unfair. And because I'm consistent I'll also say it's unfair no matter which character we were discussing. It'd be wrong if Tom Holland passed between Spider-Man 1 and 2 to replace him with Miles Morales. Or if Jason Mamoa died they up and replaced him with Ocean Master. Or to replace RDJ with War Machine less than halfway into his trilogy.

The original mantle holders deserve their time in the sun. We're living in an unprecedented age of comic adaptations and while it's fair to assume that these movies and shows will always be made, to deprive Marvel's first major black male superhero of a chance to shine during this golden age of superhero cinema is a missed opportunity.

T'Challa is the guy that first appeared in 1966 and introduced readers to the world of Wakanda and the way he explores and grapples with that world deserves a decade-long arc the way Iron Man and Cap did. It'd be profoundly wrong for a character who only had the mantle for 6 years to monopolize the franchise and become it's face when the originator (whose remained relevant in the comics since then) is denied that opportunity due to tragic real world circumstances.

And as you said in an earlier post, this almost definitely won't stop here. Because T'Challa will have been reduced to a footnote in the MCU journey of Shuri, it's only a matter of time before people start demanding she take T'Challa's place on game rosters and animated projects. When the MCU inevitably reboots people would've spent close to a decade with Shuri and are gonna demand she headline the BP films AGAIN instead of T'Challa. This is a crucial moment in time for these characters and displacing T'Challa in favor of Shuri and worse yet, taking elements of his story and grafting them onto her, will do harm long term to the coherence and stability of the franchise across all mediums.

That's not to say Coogler won't do a good Shuri film if he decides to do one. But I can't help but think T'Challa won't suffer in some way long term if Shuri gets the mantle for a decade and across several films.

Exactly, and again it's not that I don't think Coogler could do a good Shuri movie. He has shown through all of his movies that he can craft great female characters, however, this is not her series. T'Challa JUST got to the big screen and barely even got into his career and his story (i expect that T'Challa would be around for a 10 year story just like Cap, Thor, Tony etc ) is far from complete. Spiderman would not be replaced by Miles, especially if Miles isn't even set up to take the mantle and doing so requires a isht ton of work and essentially a whole new origin story that halts all themes and movement of the series to reset the franchise on track. And yeah they won't stop of Shuri takes it. They will start to claim SHE is the face of the mythos, it's hers, she's Marvels first premier Black female super hero and then next thing you know, T'Challa has either faded or becomes a supporting cast member in his own franchise. Its as I said. The minute a Black hero finally gets limelight the call's to replace them with a female character is immediate. Tell his story, let Shuri naturally develop as well and be molded to take the mantle AFTER T'Challas story is told in full.

T'Challa for being around for 50+ year's has gotten shafted so many times and has had opportunities ruined or shut down before he has had the chance to have the same treatment that other heroes who have been around the same amount of time have gotten. Give him this before he is replaced by a character with less than 20 years of publication history takes over

[Ezyo1000]

Making Shuri BP takes no retconning at all. Merely requires her to grow into a role she should have been raised for to begin with. Regardless of whether or not T'Challa ever actually dies again, she should be prepared for this especially after Killmonger. This isn't a retcon so much as it's simply writing the royal family intelligently. T'challa has died twice ... they should be smart enough to have a viable line of succession through and beyond Shuri.

But again, if Coogler isn't done with T'challa he can recast. It's up to him.

I'm talking about you know, what has been shown in the movies. Shuri got snapped in IW. If she was alive and in EG it was her and not Okoye meeting up with Natasha I would agree it's not a hard transition if they decided to go that route. But it's been made extremely clear that Shuri has shown zero interest, nor has the skills to take the mantle. So let her go her own path and if that ends up with her getting the mantle so be it. But as it stands, Okoye is a better candidate to rule then Shuri

[Cville]

Yea at face value I just think it's unfair. And because I'm consistent I'll also say it's unfair no matter which character we were discussing. It'd be wrong if Tom Holland passed between Spider-Man 1 and 2 to replace him with Miles Morales. Or if Jason Mamoa died they up and replaced him with Ocean Master. Or to replace RDJ with War Machine less than halfway into his trilogy.

The original mantle holders deserve their time in the sun. We're living in an unprecedented age of comic adaptations and while it's fair to assume that these movies and shows will always be made, to deprive Marvel's first major black male superhero of a chance to shine during this golden age of superhero cinema is a missed opportunity.

T'Challa is the guy that first appeared in 1966 and introduced readers to the world of Wakanda and the way he explores and grapples with that world deserves a decade-long arc the way Iron Man and Cap did. It'd be profoundly wrong for a character who only had the mantle for 6 years to monopolize the franchise and become it's face when the originator (whose remained relevant in the comics since then) is denied that opportunity due to tragic real world circumstances.

And as you said in an earlier post, this almost definitely won't stop here. Because T'Challa will have been reduced to a footnote in the MCU journey of Shuri, it's only a matter of time before people start demanding she take T'Challa's place on game rosters and animated projects. When the MCU inevitably reboots people would've spent close to a decade with Shuri and are gonna demand she headline the BP films AGAIN instead of T'Challa. This is a crucial moment in time for these characters and displacing T'Challa in favor of Shuri and worse yet, taking elements of his story and grafting them onto her, will do harm long term to the coherence and stability of the franchise across all mediums.

That's not to say Coogler won't do a good Shuri film if he decides to do one. But I can't help but think T'Challa won't suffer in some way long term if Shuri gets the mantle for a decade and across several films.

I'd be fine with all those replacements you mentioned. Except for Ocean Master, I'd go for kaldur'ahm

[XPac]

I'm talking about you know, what has been shown in the movies. Shuri got snapped in IW. If she was alive and in EG it was her and not Okoye meeting up with Natasha I would agree it's not a hard transition if they decided to go that route. But it's been made extremely clear that Shuri has shown zero interest, nor has the skills to take the mantle. So let her go her own path and if that ends up with her getting the mantle so be it. But as it stands, Okoye is a better candidate to rule then Shuri

It's very clear she has zero interest in the mantle... but that doesn't mean she won't be there for the Wakandan people if she's needed. There's a difference. It's fine for her to balk at her duties while T'Challa is alive... but for her to have that attitude if T'Challa isn't present is a different matter entirely.

As far as her not having the skills to rule Wakanda... I don't think we saw enough of Shuri in the movie to assume that's the case. Again, she SHOULD have been prepared for this her entire life. She is part of he ruling family... that's the freaking point of a monarchy. For us to assume the royal family didn't prepare a logical line of sucession after T'Challa despite the fact that he died TWICE I think shows the royal family having far more incompetence than necessary.

[XPac]

I'd be fine with all those replacements you mentioned. Except for Ocean Master, I'd go for kaldur'ahm

All the MCU characters have (or likley will have) replacements, so they actually make it easy. Rhodney, Falcon, Miles, Jane, Shuri, She-Hulk, Monica Rambeu, Cassie Lang ... with the possibility of a new Black Widow and a Kate Bishop down the line. Really I think they're basically lining up everyone for an inevitable replacement.

DC hasn't done anywhere near as much ground work, but they're still struggling to get their originals established well enough.

[Cville]

All the MCU characters have (or likley will have) replacements, so they actually make it easy. Rhodney, Falcon, Miles, Jane, Shuri, She-Hulk, Monica Rambeu, Cassie Lang ... with the possibility of a new Black Widow and a Kate Bishop down the line. Really I think they're basically lining up everyone for an inevitable replacement.

DC hasn't done anywhere near as much ground work, but they're still struggling to get their originals established well enough.

Were not talking about eventually, we talking a lead actor dies in the middle of the franchise. Do they recast it or replace with a different character. If the character did a good job and is memorable, I say replace until a franchise reboot.

Bit of the actor walks away for money or lack of interest, the studio would be right to recast.

[XPac]

Were not talking about eventually, we talking a lead actor dies in the middle of the franchise. Do they recast it or replace with a different character. If the character did a good job and is memorable, I say replace until a franchise reboot.

Bit of the actor walks away for money or lack of interest, the studio would be right to recast.

My point though is that they have a legacy in place so it it at least becomes a conversation. It's easier to have the discussion of whether or not War Machine can take over the Iron Man franchise if War Machine actually exists. THem existing makes them a viable option, even if it's an option they ultimately decide not to use.

[chief12d]

I'd be fine with all those replacements you mentioned. Except for Ocean Master, I'd go for kaldur'ahm

I don't know if you're saying you're ok with it because you like those characters more or because they're black or both lol. But by that logic you shouldn't have an issue with T'Challa getting replaced, which is your prerogative. You'd rightfully get push back from fans of the originals, though.

Imagine replacing Arthur, a character that's been around since the 40s with a character who doesn't even exist yet in the DCEU because Momoa passed away tragically. Lots of story left to tell with the character and it'd be a shame to wait a whole decade+ to see that story told.

But I think the broader issue is that this wouldn't be pushed as hard as it is on social media and in major comic culture sites if it were a character other than T'Challa. There'd definitely be more push back from fans to replacing Iron Man with War Machine than there currently is with T'Challa and Shuri. I think the double standard is problematic and speaks to a wider issue of how black males in fiction are increasingly seeing pushes to have their female supporting cast displace them.

[XPac]

I don't know if you're saying you're ok with it because you like those characters more or because they're black or both lol. But by that logic you shouldn't have an issue with T'Challa getting replaced, which is your prerogative. You'd rightfully get push back from fans of the originals, though.

Imagine replacing Arthur, a character that's been around since the 40s with a character who doesn't even exist yet in the DCEU because Momoa passed away tragically. Lots of story left to tell with the character and it'd be a shame to wait a whole decade+ to see that story told.

DC's doesn't even have to worry about recasting issues, since they're probably going to pull a soft reboot with their entire universe anyways.

It's sort of ironinc that the MCU is doing a much better job incorporating legacy characters in the MCU, when that's sort of DC's thing in the comics.

[chief12d]

DC's doesn't even have to worry about recasting issues, since they're probably going to pull a soft reboot with their entire universe anyways.

It's sort of ironinc that the MCU is doing a much better job incorporating legacy characters in the MCU, when that's sort of DC's thing in the comics.

I'm speaking in hypotheticals though. If Momoa couldn't play Aquaman due to a tragic passing I doubt there'd be as much push for Ocean Master to replace him as there is for Shuri to replace T'Challa. The double standard is worrying because it sets a precedent where black male characters are seen as more expendable than white male characters when the standard should be the same.

[Cville]

I don't know if you're saying you're ok with it because you like those characters more or because they're black or both lol. But by that logic you shouldn't have an issue with T'Challa getting replaced, which is your prerogative. You'd rightfully get push back from fans of the originals, though.

Imagine replacing Arthur, a character that's been around since the 40s with a character who doesn't even exist yet in the DCEU because Momoa passed away tragically. Lots of story left to tell with the character and it'd be a shame to wait a whole decade+ to see that story told.

But I think the broader issue is that this wouldn't be pushed as hard as it is on social media and in major comic culture sites if it were a character other than T'Challa. There'd definitely be more push back from fans to replacing Iron Man with War Machine than there currently is with T'Challa and Shuri. I think the double standard is problematic and speaks to a wider issue of how black males in fiction are increasingly seeing pushes to have their female supporting cast displace them.

It's not about liking them or not. If the lead actor dies, replace him with a different character if the movies are still part of the same continuity. If Bale had been the one who died after filming Dark Knight, I'd say go with Dick for the third movie if the studio didnt want to reboot the whole franchise.

[XPac]

I'm speaking in hypotheticals though. If Momoa couldn't play Aquaman due to a tragic passing I doubt there'd be as much push for Ocean Master to replace him as there is for Shuri to replace T'Challa. The double standard is worrying because it sets a precedent where black male characters are seen as more expendable than white male characters when the standard should be the same.

I agree there would be absolutely ZERO push to have Ocean Master replace him. Ocean Master is the freaking villain on the franchise. It's like considering Abonimation to take over for the Hulk... it wouldn't make sense.

People like Falcon or Machine or Shuri have the right history and set up to inevitably work in that role. DC hasn't done the proper ground work fo any of their characters to have a legacy ... which again is somewhat ironic considering they all have legacy characters as a part of their mythos. But unlike BP they didn't bother incorporating it. Hence marvel having options that DC doesn't.

[MindofShadow]

Only thing I want is T'challa the Warrior to be in the forefront.

I don't care about T'challa the scientist or T'challa the good guy or T'challa the inventor or T'challa the King even. 5 years at looking at "tchalla the king" in grueling boring detail has burnt me out.