Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[XPac]

This is why in hindsight it was a poor decision not to transition Shuri into her own identity instead of making her Black Panther. I get why Hudlin did it, as it made sure she was never forgotten, but it really did stunt her development and open up the way to this kind of stuff. It signaled that the greatest peak her character can reach is taking T'Challa's spot. You compare that to Nightwing, who built a superhero career independent of just being known as the heir apparent to the Batman mantle.

Meanwhile Shuri's spent nearly half(?) her publication history in her brother's role and in her first solo ongoing a good bit is spent with her as the BP (though she does decide to go her own way). Coates to his credit has tried to make her more distinct but these efforts are too new, too disconnected from what people are seeing in the MCU, and too poorly implemented to gain any traction. Shuri as a character needed to evolve but hasn't yet.

I don't agree making Shuri BP stunted her development at all. Had she not become BP she probably wouldn't have even been used. She was the ONLY member of his supporting cast that anyone else bothered using... and it's not accident that she happened to be the official BP and the ruler of Wakanda at the time. Hudlin was smart enough to realize that making her BP FORCED people to use her. It's the only reason she got any development at all when his other supporting cast basically sat in limbo.

She still needs to build herself up indepenent of T'Challa... but because Hudlin put her on the throne it allows her that opportunity.

[Ezyo1000]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree that this is some sort of zero sum game

Like I said, I think Disney will continue to push both regardless of what Coogler decides because I think they will rightfully believe they can profit from both. T'Challa already proved he can make money, so he's fine. Just like Iron Man and Captain America will be fine despite their characters being written out of the movies. T'CHalla will be the same way, because T'CHalla has already proven his value as an IP. If Shuri does the same, then that just means they have 2 valuable IP's instead of one.

Except that's not how it's works. It should not be a zero sum game, I agree, however, disney is a business and I'm looking at this from a business standpoint abd the logic behind these social media posters. You keep comparing T'Challa to Im and Cap but keep casually forgetting that they told their stories. They were around for 10 years, both got their full trilogies a d starred in every avengers movie and made Cameo appearances, and with Tony he appeared more then Cap. Where as T'Challa has had 3 minor appearances and 1 solo. Bow compare that to if Shuri takes over and has 3 solos herself, plus avenger's movies, and since she is still young and decides to stay on the MCU longer.. then a reboot comes who do you think people are going to remember? Shuri held been in their faces for the last decade and all over the MCU (remember T'Challa and Wakanda play a Major role in the universe going forward as said by feige) and in peoples minds cemented as BP. Or T'Challa who was bp a decade ago, had 3 minor appearances and 1 Solo. Who's going to get top billing? Especially if they kill him off. And that's assuming that a reboot even happens in the next 10 years
Alot can change. Comic movie's could fade away and then what?

Let T'Challa complete his story like the rest of the heroes. He deserves that

[Ezyo1000]

I don't agree making Shuri BP stunted her development at all. Had she not become BP she probably wouldn't have even been used. She was the ONLY member of his supporting cast that anyone else bothered using... and it's not accident that she happened to be the official BP and the ruler of Wakanda at the time. Hudlin was smart enough to realize that making her BP FORCED people to use her. It's the only reason she got any development at all when his other supporting cast basically sat in limbo.

She still needs to build herself up indepenent of T'Challa... but because Hudlin put her on the throne it allows her that opportunity.

He said he understands why he did it. Hell everyone on this thread understand WHY but chief is correct that she has been stunted, and your wrong because the "opportunity" you speak of is.. again, taking the mantle from T'Challa, that's the push in the MCU. Instead of becoming her own character people want her to take T'Challas mantle. Had she become her own character and went a completely different path I feel that this wouldn't have as much traction (though still more traction because Black females taking over black male leads is a thing constantly pushed)

[XPac]

Except that's not how it's works. It should not be a zero sum game, I agree, however, disney is a business and I'm looking at this from a business standpoint abd the logic behind these social media posters. You keep comparing T'Challa to Im and Cap but keep casually forgetting that they told their stories. They were around for 10 years, both got their full trilogies a d starred in every avengers movie and made Cameo appearances, and with Tony he appeared more then Cap. Where as T'Challa has had 3 minor appearances and 1 solo. Bow compare that to if Shuri takes over and has 3 solos herself, plus avenger's movies, and since she is still young and decides to stay on the MCU longer.. then a reboot comes who do you think people are going to remember? Shuri held been in their faces for the last decade and all over the MCU (remember T'Challa and Wakanda play a Major role in the universe going forward as said by feige) and in peoples minds cemented as BP. Or T'Challa who was bp a decade ago, had 3 minor appearances and 1 Solo. Who's going to get top billing? Especially if they kill him off. And that's assuming that a reboot even happens in the next 10 years
Alot can change. Comic movie's could fade away and then what?

Let T'Challa complete his story like the rest of the heroes. He deserves that

Even if T'Challa only gets 1 solo movie, if that sole got a billion dollars then I think they will continue to invest in him. Because again, I just don't believe it's this zero sum game where only one character can be elevated at the others expense. I genuinely believe regardless of what Coogler decides to do that BOTH characters can generate money for Disney. But we're just speculating at this point... we'll see.

[XPac]

He said he understands why he did it. Hell everyone on this thread understand WHY but chief is correct that she has been stunted, and your wrong because the "opportunity" you speak of is.. again, taking the mantle from T'Challa, that's the push in the MCU. Instead of becoming her own character people want her to take T'Challas mantle. Had she become her own character and went a completely different path I feel that this wouldn't have as much traction (though still more traction because Black females taking over black male leads is a thing constantly pushed)

Would her development somehow be less stunted if she wasn't used at all? Because that's likely what would happen if she didn't become BP.

If you look back at Hudlins run he BARELY used Shuri until the arc where she becomes Black Panther... and he's the guy who created her. What chance was her character going to have of being used anywhere if her own creator didn't really want to use her regularly in a BP book?

So no... I think Hudlin making her BP stunted her development. I think itis the reason she got any development at all.

[FLEX HECTIC]

Return of the "Point Man"


This situation is unprecedented and neither Disney nor Marvel is to blame for what ever comes next!


With that said I say "Run The Clock Out"


Thanos snap all but concluded the Infinity Saga and with this virus pandemic reshaped the whole entire movie industry maybe forever!


Galactus, Doctor Doom and Namor are great potential new villains but without Downey Jr, Chris Evans and now T'chadwick they can only fall short of killing 50% of all living things!


Now that the X-men and Fantastic Four are available for MCU duty who wants to see them minus Ironman and Cap let alone a non Boseman Black Panther!


Give all the remaining characters like Captain Marvel, Doctor Strange, GoG their final trilogies to tie up loose ends like Starlord and Gamora's love story and later recast everybody new with younger actors!


Disney still has 70 billion dollars to make up for the FOX Studios buyout and without a guaranteed box office star like Boseman leading the current Avengers roster where exactly is that revenue going to come from!


The only financial problem is Sony owning Spiderman but having the potential to place Black Panther alongside Ironman, Cap, Richards, Wolverine etc etc in a classic reboot sits out there like a lump sum sore thumb!


Shuri as Black Panther is not bankable nor is her solo comic and other than Mahershala Ali dropping Blade for Black Panther or Abdul Mateen (Black Manta) or John David Washington assuming the role of T'challa it is still not Boseman's winning personality at the helm!


You could literally have a younger T'challa reboot challenging Krasinsky and his wife Emily Blunt as FF members as depicted in issue #52 and start fresh with a newer MCU!


A whole new start relieves everybody of solo responsibility because everyone is sharing the new risk collectively... Anyone replacing Ironman has just as much pressure as Black Panther moving forward!


You are going to recast actors one way or another as everybody approaches their 40's and 50's and ages out and with the revelation of Boseman's cancer older actors will be under more scrutiny and tests for insurance and investors security!


Practically every major actor has done at least three or more appearances already so who needs to approach Freddie Krueger/Jason Vorhees sequel numbers?


Once you have completed your Shakespeare tout of duty Broadway moves on with new cast members all the time to keep the chitlin circuit going!


Reginald Hudlin once said in an interview at Comic-con that these characters are toys that you play with for a while and then put them back in the box for someone else to play with later on!


This MCU has all but run it's course and as has been done in the past new creative teams come aboard and reset the sliding timescale...


New Black Panther... New Ironman... New Captain America... New X-men... New Fantastic Four... New Avengers... New Villains... New Story Arcs...


Disney shareholders approve this message I pinky swear...

[chief12d]

I don't agree making Shuri BP stunted her development at all. Had she not become BP she probably wouldn't have even been used. She was the ONLY member of his supporting cast that anyone else bothered using... and it's not accident that she happened to be the official BP and the ruler of Wakanda at the time. Hudlin was smart enough to realize that making her BP FORCED people to use her. It's the only reason she got any development at all when his other supporting cast basically sat in limbo.

She still needs to build herself up indepenent of T'Challa... but because Hudlin put her on the throne it allows her that opportunity.

It's possible that her becoming BP both saved her from limbo and stunted her development. Hudlin had every right to believe that if she wasn't part of some big status quo change she would've been forgotten like the supporting characters he himself neglected. But like I said, it created this atmosphere around her character that the highest peak she can reach is becoming the BP and thus taking T'Challa's role.

She didn't do anything notable in her publication history or of relevance to the mythos before she became BP so it only solidified this idea that she can only be great if she's Black Panther, which is a permanent cap on her potential. Creating that attitude is what leads to her first legit ongoing without the mantle ending up with her becoming BP again, because writers don't know what to do without that crutch. It's the equivalent of Dick Grayson never developing his own superhero title and always having to resort to stories about becoming Batman or how he doesn't need to be Batman

What should've happened was that she saw more consistent use across Hudlin's run and developed an independent identity before she took the mantle. So by the time she was revived she could fall back on that moniker when T'Challa inevitably took back his mantle. What we have now is a character who is defined by a particular moment in time that has no specific core to pull from so Marvel is just throwing stuff at the wall. No one knows what Shuri should be like when she's not BP. Coates made her a dour sorceress. Coogler made her a quirky tech wiz. Okorafor made her BP again with a dash of both. That all is a result of poor planning for her character arc and a misunderstanding of what her character should be.

[XPac]

It's possible that her becoming BP both saved her from limbo and stunted her development. Hudlin had every right to believe that if she wasn't part of some big status quo change she would've been forgotten like the supporting characters he himself neglected. But like I said, it created this atmosphere around her character that the highest peak she can reach is becoming the BP and thus taking T'Challa's role.

She didn't do anything notable in her publication history or of relevance to the mythos before she became BP so it only solidified this idea that she can only be great if she's Black Panther, which is a permanent cap on her potential. Creating that attitude is what leads to her first legit ongoing without the mantle ending up with her becoming BP again, because writers don't know what to do without that crutch. It's the equivalent of Dick Grayson never developing his own superhero title and always having to resort to stories about becoming Batman or how he doesn't need to be Batman

What should've happened was that she saw more consistent use across Hudlin's run and developed an independent identity before she took the mantle. So by the time she was revived she could fall back on that moniker when T'Challa inevitably took back his mantle. What we have now is a character who is defined by a particular moment in time that has no specific core to pull from so Marvel is just throwing stuff at the wall. No one knows what Shuri should be like when she's not BP. Coates made her a wizard. Coogler made her a quirky tech wiz. Okorafor made her BP again with a dash of both. That all is a result of poor planning for her character arc and a misunderstanding of what her character should be.

It's not that writers didn't know what to do with her without that crutch... Coates had a direction to take the character completely indepentent of the BP mantle.

I think the reason writers don't know what to do with her is because the movie version and the comic version are competing with each other, and while the movie side is SLOWLY winning it's making it harder to really handle her in a way that doesn't come off completly schitzo. It's the double edged sword of movie synergy. This would have been a problem even if Shuri was better defined prior to becoming BP, because the movie version largely ignored the comic version.

Since the inevitable movie version will win, it's just a matter of Coates slowly eliminating the unique aspects he gave the character so that the next writer can basically make her a carbon copy of the movie version. From there we'll get a more standarized Shuri people can actually use without confusing the heck out of the readers. For the record I'm not a fan of the movie synergy approach... but it's obvious where it's heading, and fighting it will only make Shuri harder to use in the end.

For what it's worth I wish she could keep her magical abilities as characters with both magic and tech are somewhat rare. Gives her a bit of a unique niche. But the writing is pretty much on the wall here.

[Ascended]

Because Black Panther is a mantle its theoretically supposed to be passed on to the next person. So I don't think seeing Shuri wear her dead brother's suit really hurts her too much ... especially since she made the suit.

Point being IF they decide not to recast Shuri is a fairly easy pivot. Though there are other potential options too. Kasper Cole potentially works.

Oh it makes sense within the fiction for Shuri to take the mantle if T'Challa dies and has no direct heir. Of course. But the considerations in the real world are a little different; not only would Shuri taking over be a repeat of the first film (in the broad strokes) it's also making the first black female led film a legacy, and I just don't like the taste of that.

Don't get me wrong, MCU Shuri being forced into the role of queen and Black Panther could be interesting; not only is there no heart shaped herb to give her the powers and spiritual connections but she'd be a completely different kind of BP. And the fact that she's not well suited for the position and would rather be in her lab adds to the potential drama. I wouldn't have a problem with Shuri taking over as the Panther.....after T'Challa gets his trilogy.

And I don't think the fears of T'Challa being replaced across media are unfounded either. Marvel *loves* their synergy. If Shuri becomes BP in the films, the odds of that happening elsewhere are pretty good.

Actually the comparisons made to white actor's was what of RDJ or Evans passed before they finished their solo stories. They would be recast. No one was comparing their completed story arcs and being replaced to Chadwick Which was hon passing before his sequel. But you better believe this conversation comes up alot more with Black males being replaced alive or no, then it does for white actor's. Because white actor's are able to exist and coincide without issue whereas black characters it feels like there's a limit to how many can be in one space.

Oh okay, I missed the first part of that discussion apparently. I agree that this seems to be a thing with black actors more than white ones, but I still think the biggest chunk of it is the way Marvel treats their actors. They put a lot of effort into making sure the audience thinks of the actor and character as one and the same, so it's not surprising people are acting as if T'Challa had died too. I imagine it's one of those situations where stuff just compounds on itself; the "black actor" thing feeding into the MCU thing, round and round.

[chief12d]

It's not that writers didn't know what to do with her without that crutch... Coates had a direction to take the character completely indepentent of the BP mantle.

I think the reason writers don't know what to do with her is because the movie version and the comic version are competing with each other, and while the movie side is SLOWLY winning it's making it harder to really handle her in a way that doesn't come off completly schitzo. It's the double edged sword of movie synergy. This would have been a problem even if Shuri was better defined prior to becoming BP, because the movie version largely ignored the comic version.

Since the inevitable movie version will win, it's just a matter of Coates slowly eliminating the unique aspects he gave the character so that the next writer can basically make her a carbon copy of the movie version. From there we'll get a more standarized Shuri people can actually use without confusing the heck out of the readers. For the record I'm not a fan of the movie synergy approach... but it's obvious where it's heading, and fighting it will only make Shuri harder to use in the end.

For what it's worth I wish she could keep her magical abilities as characters with both magic and tech are somewhat rare. Gives her a bit of a unique niche. But the writing is pretty much on the wall here.

But that's the point. Coates made her some wizard because her personality and powerset were so poorly defined and non-distinct from T'Challa he took her in the more mystical direction that Season 2 was gearing up to be. That ties back to how prior to taking the role of BP she simply was not properly built up and as BP she effectively became a clone of T'Challa. And because recently released comics only have so much baring on the MCU, Coogler went his own way and ignored what Coates was doing, making her a teenaged tech genius.

I agree that there's competing iterations of the character, but these two divergent takes on Shuri are due to a failure in the early-mid 2000's to actually give her a solid set of characteristics, skills, and big moments prior to taking the mantle. That said, it definitely looks like things are becoming more standardized as Shuri's Griot abilities are completely ignored outside Coates' and his friends' comics and she's been depicted more lighthearted in recent books.

[XPac]

Oh it makes sense within the fiction for Shuri to take the mantle if T'Challa dies and has no direct heir. Of course. But the considerations in the real world are a little different; not only would Shuri taking over be a repeat of the first film (in the broad strokes) it's also making the first black female led film a legacy, and I just don't like the taste of that.

Don't get me wrong, MCU Shuri being forced into the role of queen and Black Panther could be interesting; not only is there no heart shaped herb to give her the powers and spiritual connections but she'd be a completely different kind of BP. And the fact that she's not well suited for the position and would rather be in her lab adds to the potential drama. I wouldn't have a problem with Shuri taking over as the Panther.....after T'Challa gets his trilogy.

And I don't think the fears of T'Challa being replaced across media are unfounded either. Marvel *loves* their synergy. If Shuri becomes BP in the films, the odds of that happening elsewhere are pretty good.



Oh okay, I missed the first part of that discussion apparently. I agree that this seems to be a thing with black actors more than white ones, but I still think the biggest chunk of it is the way Marvel treats their actors. They put a lot of effort into making sure the audience thinks of the actor and character as one and the same, so it's not surprising people are acting as if T'Challa had died too. I imagine it's one of those situations where stuff just compounds on itself; the "black actor" thing feeding into the MCU thing, round and round.

Oh I agree synergy is a real thing and IF Shuri becomes Black Panther in the movies (IF being the operative word), I am 100% sure we will see that happen in other media.

But I don't think we have to worry about is T'Challa vanishing off the face of the earth. When she became Black Panther last time, we STILL have T'Challa running around in a panther suit in his own book. Her being Black Panther didn't in any way hinder him from basically being black Panther too (even if the title was officially hers). There was a period of time when both Sam and Steve were Captain America, and right now both Peter and Miles are Spider-Man. Even though Odinson stopped calling himself Thor when Jane was wielding the hammer, as far as I'm concerned he was still Thor (why he lost his name I've never know).

The moral of the story being you can have your cake and eat it too. Regardless of what Coogler ends up doing, I think Disney and marvel will continue to use and push both characters.

[XPac]

But that's the point. Coates made her some wizard because her personality and powerset were so poorly defined and non-distinct from T'Challa he took her in the more mystical direction that Season 2 was gearing up to be. That ties back to how prior to taking the role of BP she simply was not properly built up and as BP she effectively became a clone of T'Challa. And because recently released comics only have so much baring on the MCU, Coogler went his own way and ignored what Coates was doing, making her a teenaged tech genius.

I agree that there's competing iterations of the character, but these two divergent takes on Shuri are due to a failure in the early-mid 2000's to actually give her a solid set of characteristics, skills, and big moments prior to taking the mantle. That said, it definitely looks like things are becoming more standardized as Shuri's Griot abilities are completely ignored outside Coates' and his friends' comics and she's been depicted more lighthearted in recent books.

Again, I think even IF they defined her more in the comics we'd still have this problem. Hawkeye is NOT a new character by any stretch of the imagination.. he's been around for decades. But they made him what they needed him to be in the movies. Same with Jane Foster and Aunt May and to a lesser degree Nick Fury. The movies did what they wanted to fit the story they wanted to tell. Unless you're a main character like Iron Man or Cap or Thor, the movies weren't going to bend over backwards to make you as authentic as possible.

No matter what we would have gotten, we would end up with an MCU version of Shuri in the comics when all is said and done. That's just the reality of the situation like it or not. They wanted a teenag Disney Princess, so they got one. But until that process is complete, Shuri is going to be somewhat less usable as a character.

[chief12d]

If Shuri becomes BP we'll probably see something along the lines of when T'Challa was in Hell's Kitchen. Shuri becomes the semi-permanent Queen of Wakanda and the "real" Black Panther while he has the title in name only and operates as a free agent, freely traveling between Wakanda and the wider world. Because he's had better solo success he probably gets the ongoing with Shuri acting as a co-protagonist if not one half of a buddy cop duo.

Due to her major role in the MCU she probably is the BP who ends up on the main Avengers roster alongside the Big 3, Captain Marvel, and 2-3 other A/B listers. If the Avengers line is healthy enough and editorial isn't stingy with continuity, T'Challa can also appear in a satellite title like Secret or Uncanny Avengers. In line-wide events Shuri takes center stage as the ruler of the kingdom and gets to lead the charge, make the speeches, etc.

In terms of other mediums, Shuri is probably ranked above T'Challa. She has the MCU appearances bolstering her relevance and she checks more diversity boxes as a woman of color. So in video games she probably is the first available Wakandan and T'Challa is available as an alternate skin or an unlockable character. Animation also probably features her more prominently though T'Challa will get his due in a more supporting capacity. In a hypothetical Black Panther: The Animated Series Shuri almost certainly will be the lead character. So basically, BP ceases being T'Challa's franchise and becomes more like Green Lantern or the Ant-Man family.

[Ezyo1000]

Even if T'Challa only gets 1 solo movie, if that sole got a billion dollars then I think they will continue to invest in him. Because again, I just don't believe it's this zero sum game where only one character can be elevated at the others expense. I genuinely believe regardless of what Coogler decides to do that BOTH characters can generate money for Disney. But we're just speculating at this point... we'll see.

They can't invest in him if they kill off the character

[Ezyo1000]

Would her development somehow be less stunted if she wasn't used at all? Because that's likely what would happen if she didn't become BP.

If you look back at Hudlins run he BARELY used Shuri until the arc where she becomes Black Panther... and he's the guy who created her. What chance was her character going to have of being used anywhere if her own creator didn't really want to use her regularly in a BP book?

So no... I think Hudlin making her BP stunted her development. I think itis the reason she got any development at all.

Re-read what was said. Everyone knows WHY Hudlin did it. Unfortunately that stunted her growth and now in the MCU we are seeing the ramifications of that stunting