Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[XPac]

They can't invest in him if they kill off the character

Sure they can.

Iron Man was killed off, but he's still showing up in the video game. He's still showing up on the comics. I'm pretty sure anything Avenger related Disney does outside the movies will still have Iron Man in it.

[XPac]

Re-read what was said. Everyone knows WHY Hudlin did it. Unfortunately that stunted her growth and now in the MCU we are seeing the ramifications of that stunting

I did re-read what you said... the part I'm missing is the part where she would somehow be less stunted if she wasn't used at all. Because if we're all in agreement that she gets more growth from being used than not being used, then I'm good ending this conversation here.

[FLEX HECTIC]

The 1.3 Billion Dollar Mic Drop...


Assuming Marvel agreed to not recast nor address the Black Panther situation and "ran the clock out" on the current MCU what should be ported over to the new rebooted Black Panther franchise?


Obviously the Wakanda Forever salute is a keeper!


Phases like "Yibambe" and "Phambili" should probably remain as lore along with the standard issue status of most characters!


The nanite technology could be reinvented as well as the multiple uses of vibranium!


BUT... You could probably insert more Christopher Priest like dynamics of two steps ahead of your enemies three steps ahead of your friends!


You could restore his genius level intellect as opposed to standing around waiting for Shuri to provide the answer and solutions!


The love interest angles could be flirted with maybe bringing back Monica Lynn or crazy and deranged Nakia/Malice!


Princess Zanda could provide a love triangle perhaps even inserting Storm with a much better representation that even Black Panther fans could support!


Black Panther should have many renditions like James Bond or Batman who have had many actors fill the roles over the years!


Sean Connery may be the definitve Bond in most old school fans eyes but later versions fit the era that they were placed in and worked out quite nicely!


Christopher Priest once said that he would have gotten more mileage out of the death of King T'chaka instead of the Zemo/Winter Soldier plot that pushed more of a breakup for the Avengers than a separate T'challa story!


The MCU Black Panther is a result of the overall Infinity Saga and not it's own tale so perhaps an opportunity has been presented to pull away and push it's own agenda as a separate but attached franchise!


T'challa's story is never finished no matter who or when they start it up or end it he is a part of the Marvel Encyclopedia and will get explored one way or another!


At least Wakanda might not be a jump off for Thanos and them stomping the yard but under Kevin Feige a brand new "Doomwar" with less pyrrhic victory speeches could happen now knowing that 1.3 Billion Dollars is on the table where as before no one knew how much of an impact a Black Panther solo movie would make!


Disney has to admit that many loyal T'challa fans would jump ship for a recast Black Panther in this MCU or a Shuri upgrade!


Think of every rendition of Black Panther then apply the 1.3 Billion Dollar pressure to deliver with new blood at the helm to tweak out all the kinks and make it epic!


Boseman set a standard and the ultimate blueprints but new writers and actors have to carry the Infinity Guantlet to new heights!


Either today or tomorrow you will get a new T'challa one way or another it's a matter of where you go from here!


MCU or total reboot...

[Ezyo1000]

Oh I agree synergy is a real thing and IF Shuri becomes Black Panther in the movies (IF being the operative word), I am 100% sure we will see that happen in other media.

But I don't think we have to worry about is T'Challa vanishing off the face of the earth. When she became Black Panther last time, we STILL have T'Challa running around in a panther suit in his own book. Her being Black Panther didn't in any way hinder him from basically being black Panther too (even if the title was officially hers). There was a period of time when both Sam and Steve were Captain America, and right now both Peter and Miles are Spider-Man. Even though Odinson stopped calling himself Thor when Jane was wielding the hammer, as far as I'm concerned he was still Thor (why he lost his name I've never know).

The moral of the story being you can have your cake and eat it too. Regardless of what Coogler ends up doing, I think Disney and marvel will continue to use and push both characters.

You keep comparing these characters with hundreds of issues, tons of videos game presence, and a minimum of 7 movies in the MCU and other animated movies as well this is not the same as T'Challa who had very little exposure prior to the MCU.

Now think what would happen if Shuri gets those 7 movies. The comics are different then the movies, especially if they were to kill T'Challa off on the MCU, he would be dead until a reboot and they likely wouldn't keep bringing him up again after the first Shuri movie. You need to stop comparing the characters because it's not even the Same thing and if you replace T'Challa now especially by killing him off he isn't going to continue to be pushed.
Remember quicksilver? Yeah he died and is dead, never mentioned again

[Ezyo1000]

Sure they can.

Iron Man was killed off, but he's still showing up in the video game. He's still showing up on the comics. I'm pretty sure anything Avenger related Disney does outside the movies will still have Iron Man in it.

Ironman. Has. Already. Had. His. Story. Told. And no one replaced him even and Ontop of that Tony has a bigger presence in the comics. They didn't gear Rhodey to take over for him
Rhodey has been completely isht in the MCU.

[XPac]

Ironman. Has. Already. Had. His. Story. Told. And no one replaced him even and Ontop of that Tony has a bigger presence in the comics. They didn't gear Rhodey to take over for him
Rhodey has been completely isht in the MCU.

The fact that he's had his story told doesn't change the fact that Disney will continue using him regardless of whether or not he's dead in the movies. Because there is money to be made from his, regardless of whether or not he's dead in the movies. And the same will be true for T'Challa.

Again, it goes back to this notion that this is some sort of zero sum game. It's not. It's only the fans trying to pit them against each other... Disney I'm sure will be more than happy to use BOTH to make themselves richer, regardless of what Coogler decides to do in the movies.

[XPac]

You keep comparing these characters with hundreds of issues, tons of videos game presence, and a minimum of 7 movies in the MCU and other animated movies as well this is not the same as T'Challa who had very little exposure prior to the MCU.

Now think what would happen if Shuri gets those 7 movies. The comics are different then the movies, especially if they were to kill T'Challa off on the MCU, he would be dead until a reboot and they likely wouldn't keep bringing him up again after the first Shuri movie. You need to stop comparing the characters because it's not even the Same thing and if you replace T'Challa now especially by killing him off he isn't going to continue to be pushed.
Remember quicksilver? Yeah he died and is dead, never mentioned again

Quicksilver doesn't have a billion dollar solo film. If he did, I'm pretty sure they'd continue trying to milk him too.

[MindofShadow]

This is why in hindsight it was a poor decision not to transition Shuri into her own identity instead of making her Black Panther. I get why Hudlin did it, as it made sure she was never forgotten, but it really did stunt her development and open up the way to this kind of stuff. It signaled that the greatest peak her character can reach is taking T'Challa's spot. You compare that to Nightwing, who built a superhero career independent of just being known as the heir apparent to the Batman mantle.

Meanwhile Shuri's spent nearly half(?) her publication history in her brother's role and in her first solo ongoing a good bit is spent with her as the BP (though she does decide to go her own way). Coates to his credit has tried to make her more distinct but these efforts are too new, too disconnected from what people are seeing in the MCU, and too poorly implemented to gain any traction. Shuri as a character needed to evolve but hasn't yet.

I don't want it to seem like I am shitting on Shuri because I do like her as a supporting character in the comics (pre griot) and in the MCU. And I actually like Deadliest of the Species arc. I think it was really good other than willy nilly killing over nearly all of T'challa's supporting characters lol.

But as a leading lady, Shuri was a decent concept that wasn't thought through

Hudlin simply never made her distinct enough from T'challa. So, when she eventually reverted out of the BP role... she's just Shuri. No code name, no powers, nothing that makes her special in a superhero world.

Coates tried with the Griot **** but unfortunatley he changed her personality too much so she barely felt like Shuri and then the MCU cut this legs out anyway so it didn't matter.

There is a very very very very very legit and real reason MCU shuri is nothing like comic shuri. The people in charge realized comic Shuri brought nothing to the table. She isn't better at T'challa at anything. She isn't even different enough personality from T'challa to be interesting (until Hickman). She was never given another role in the comics (not a spy, not a leader of specialized warriors, not an ambassador... nothing)... her whole role is "another royal waiting for the throne that isn't as good as T'challa"

Which is another thing MCU wakanda improved upon. T'chaka was king, so N'jobobobobobbobbob got another job lol. T'challa was next in line, so Shuri went and got another job lol. They didn't have Royals just sitting around doing nothin.

One of the downfalls of taking T'challa out of Wakanda a bunch in Hudlin's run is that the supporting cast doesn't get developed. Which is a fine decision, but it backfires when you turn around and promote a legacy character. Because you don't have time to like and get to know the character.

[MindofShadow]

Hey, remember when a 16 year old nerd raises their hand to challenge for the throne and everyone laughed at her and then she made a mockery of the process?




If you ain't gonna recast, I'd rather the MCU just get really weird with it and give the throne to Nakia.

She is trusted by Ramanda, she is the leading warrior of the river tribe, she was the one that was "right" in the movie, and the actress has a big name.

Go ahead and create a whole new MCU wakanda where challenge day actually means something and the throne can pass from tribe to tribe if they have a good enough warrior at the right time.

All hail the River Tribe!

[Ezyo1000]

I don't want it to seem like I am shitting on Shuri because I do like her as a supporting character in the comics (pre griot) and in the MCU. And I actually like Deadliest of the Species arc. I think it was really good other than willy nilly killing over nearly all of T'challa's supporting characters lol.

But as a leading lady, Shuri was a decent concept that wasn't thought through

Hudlin simply never made her distinct enough from T'challa. So, when she eventually reverted out of the BP role... she's just Shuri. No code name, no powers, nothing that makes her special in a superhero world.

Coates tried with the Griot **** but unfortunatley he changed her personality too much so she barely felt like Shuri and then the MCU cut this legs out anyway so it didn't matter.

There is a very very very very very legit and real reason MCU shuri is nothing like comic shuri. The people in charge realized comic Shuri brought nothing to the table. She isn't better at T'challa at anything. She isn't even different enough personality from T'challa to be interesting (until Hickman). She was never given another role in the comics (not a spy, not a leader of specialized warriors, not an ambassador... nothing)... her whole role is "another royal waiting for the throne that isn't as good as T'challa"

Which is another thing MCU wakanda improved upon. T'chaka was king, so N'jobobobobobbobbob got another job lol. T'challa was next in line, so Shuri went and got another job lol. They didn't have Royals just sitting around doing nothin.

One of the downfalls of taking T'challa out of Wakanda a bunch in Hudlin's run is that the supporting cast doesn't get developed. Which is a fine decision, but it backfires when you turn around and promote a legacy character. Because you don't have time to like and get to know the character.

Yeah Hudlin made a smart move with bringing in another Royal. But I feel like because he didn't have a set plan for Shuri like you said she didn't develop at all. Maybe if he didn't have Storm he might of given more attention to the supporting cast. Hard to say but he should of made Shuri have some type of role when he was penning the run. She should of been head of the WDG from the get go and T'Challa should of given her a job as soon as he took the role and not treated her like a kid sister. Hell I would of personally made her the over seerer of the DM and HZ. Her iron panther look in DW would of been used to fuse the two groups into one or something. But either way she would of had something

[XPac]

Really, the only thing Hudlin could have done with Shuri which would have actually stuck is to make her exactly like she was in the movie, because any development in any other direction would likely just be tossed aside for the purposes of synergy anyways. And obviously Hudlin can't possibly know what direction the movie could take, that would simply not be possible.

No one can dispute that Hudlin couldn't have done a much better job developing Shuri... for the bulk of his run he clearly didn't give a dam about the character. I don't think she had a single light of dialogue at her brothers wedding. BUT even if he had developed her more, that development would have simply been tossed aside once the movie version hit... so we'd be where he are now regardless.

Hudlin did the only thing he could do for the character.... he brilliantly forced other writers to continue to use her by giving her the throne, guranteeing her further existance. Doing anything more would have been nice... but in all likelihood erased for movie synergy anyways.

[Marvell2100]

They should have had Shuri join a team like Young Avengers, Future Foundation or Avengers Academy. That would have given her other opportunities for development and not living in he brothers' shadow. Shuri becoming BP wasn't the problem. Shuri losing the mantle and writers not knowing what to do with her was.

Coates came up with this non-sensical Griot persona that no one liked because they basically made her the all-knowing, all-powerful Dr Strange of Wakanda. What book was she gonna fit in outside of Black Panther? But Shuri the tech super-genius can go just about anywhere. That should have been the focus of her growth.

[MindofShadow]

They should have had Shuri join a team like Young Avengers, Future Foundation or Avengers Academy. That would have given her other opportunities for development and not living in he brothers' shadow. Shuri becoming BP wasn't the problem. Shuri losing the mantle and writers not knowing what to do with her was.

Coates came up with this non-sensical Griot persona that no one liked because they basically made her the all-knowing, all-powerful Dr Strange of Wakanda. What book was she gonna fit in outside of Black Panther? But Shuri the tech super-genius can go just about anywhere. That should have been the focus of her growth.

"Lets make Shuri a Mage"

Me: F yeah, been saying that would be an interesting angle!

"and she will know all of Wakandan history before the history and continually give monologues about this history and that will be her default personality"

Me: .... that... that sounds boring.

"and she will have powers based on this stories"

Me: .... ok, still kinda magic

"she will raise zombies"

Me: yo wtf this is King od the Dead redone!

[chief12d]

Really, the only thing Hudlin could have done with Shuri which would have actually stuck is to make her exactly like she was in the movie, because any development in any other direction would likely just be tossed aside for the purposes of synergy anyways. And obviously Hudlin can't possibly know what direction the movie could take, that would simply not be possible.

No one can dispute that Hudlin couldn't have done a much better job developing Shuri... for the bulk of his run he clearly didn't give a dam about the character. I don't think she had a single light of dialogue at her brothers wedding. BUT even if he had developed her more, that development would have simply been tossed aside once the movie version hit... so we'd be where he are now regardless.

Hudlin did the only thing he could do for the character.... he brilliantly forced other writers to continue to use her by giving her the throne, guranteeing her further existance. Doing anything more would have been nice... but in all likelihood erased for movie synergy anyways.

It's entirely possible Coogler would've ignored whatever Hudlin did with Shuri, but Shuri not having done anything of note prior to becoming BP didn't necessarily help things. It didn't increase the chances of Coogler basing her off the source material because as far as he was concerned there was little source material to work with.

Same goes for Coates, but then again it's entirely possible he still would've pushed this Doctor Strange of Wakanda thing so who knows. All I'm saying is that failing to give her a core before becoming BP left the character with no real path forward when T'Challa took back the mantle. It's partially responsible for the current divide between her character.

If over the course of 20-25 issues Shuri had a character arc not relating to becoming BP, developed a distinct superhero identity, and made friendships/romances with characters either within or outside the mythos (like the Young Avengers) then things might've turned out differently. Her first ongoing wouldn't have involved her becoming BP AGAIN, the teenage tech wiz MCU synergy wouldn't be so tonally incoherent with Coates, there might not be as much push for her to be the MCU Panther, etc. I'm not saying these things are guaranteed, just that they were more likely if she were better utilized in her first few years of appearances and been more than just T'Challa's hotheaded little sister.

[XPac]

They should have had Shuri join a team like Young Avengers, Future Foundation or Avengers Academy. That would have given her other opportunities for development and not living in he brothers' shadow. Shuri becoming BP wasn't the problem. Shuri losing the mantle and writers not knowing what to do with her was.

Coates came up with this non-sensical Griot persona that no one liked because they basically made her the all-knowing, all-powerful Dr Strange of Wakanda. What book was she gonna fit in outside of Black Panther? But Shuri the tech super-genius can go just about anywhere. That should have been the focus of her growth.

I'm in the minority here, but I actually like the idea of Shuri being a magic based character. It's a niche which T'CHalla himself doesn't really cover to any degree, so they can theoretically compliment each others powersets without stepping on each others toes. T'Challa could cover the tech end of things while Shuri could cover the magic.

I think the problem moreso than the powerset was the personality. Disney wanted Shuri to be a Disney princess of sorts... which doesn't fit with ANY comic book version of Shuri. Not the uber bad @$$ cold blooded Hickman version (which is arguably the best) and certainly not all wise all knowing Coates version. In the least because of her "death" you can sort of explain the character change back and forth... but it was pretty sloppy continuity wise regardless.

But ultimately the MCU version does offer the character the greatest opportunity of growth, as none of the previous versions likely would have been interested in joining a teen super hero team in the States. But for an MCU version, it's a non issue. So for the growth of the character movie synergy probably was smart... it just meant continuity took a pretty bad hit.