Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[chief12d]

since we don't have a solar capable of explaining why those things happen to I'm just guessing as You are. We don't know if the energy gauntlets versus Neymar were completely tech or tied into some past Panthers knowledge of blending tech and spiritual energy. Hickman never dove into that because I assume that he thought a solo writer would later on. We never got that solo writer.
And yes the dwarf fight was off panel but before it went off panel they clearly talked about going one-on-one and looking for each other. I doubt t'challa shyed away from that challenge. We've seen what he does in battlefield's like that during See Wakanda and Die.

I'm not assuming anything happened, I'm just saying what was seen on panel and what hasn't been seen since. Whether the gauntlets were tech or techno-sorcery isn't the point. It's not part of the regular skillset, just like the consecrated napalm or lightsaber. Marvel didn't see it as important enough to role into future appearances for the character and it's basically a one-off that can be excused as prep.

Same goes for the hammer refusing to hit him. That was clearly an instance of T'Challa's ancestry taking precedence and T'Challa's awareness of that makes it more a "prep"/circumstantial feat than anything indicating T'Challa is any more powerful than he was before using it. Whether that was KoTD or not doesn't really make a difference.

I must've forgotten that part about them talking about going at it one-on-one, but a single instance of T'Challa taking down BD solo doesn't really make me think Marvel looks at him as a top-tier. I think most writers (rightfully) consider him below Iron Man and in the general area of Spider-Man. Which is not a bad place to be when he's got top-tier intelligence/prep skills and thus the means to hit above his weight class as needed. Like Batman.

[XPac]

Also the problem with seeing t'challa as a mid-level base tier hero is that by wakandan law unless I'm mistaken any mid-level base hero/Villain has a chance to walk into wakanda on a random Sunday and take his throne physically through challenge.
That's a mistake that needed corrected and was due to lack of growth in publication history. Spider-man has power crept why can't Tchalla finally get his rightful progress? because the only people that should be able to do that are monarch level heroes and villains like Doom, Black Bolt, Namor ect. That's his playing field not Spiderman. I would rather believe that the Tchala is on their level or at least a challenge to them on any given Sunday based on his mind first and abilities/technology second.

Hickman, Ewing, and Arron have been writing a Tchalla that can do that.
Coats Tchalla just my lose the kingdom to Wolverine on an off day.

The villains that challenge Tchalla best are political not physical. So I think characters like Mbaku and Achebe (while both could use a powerup) still work as a threat

This doesn't mean i want a Tchalla that is unbeatable or anything. Just a Tchalla that is never outclassed.

Again, T'Challa scales. Hickman gave him some nice showings against some powerful characters ... but he also had BP fight an obvious Batman clone to a relative draw.

It's no different than the real Batman, who can face Riddler on a Tuesday in Gotham and face Darkseid on a Thursday. Certain heroes are capable of scaling to different level threats. BP can throw down with Kingpin, or he can throw down with Black Dwarf and everything in between. And that's a strength to the character... it means he's a far more usable character.

[Ekie]

Wakandan law doesn't even recognize the outside world though. Namor or Wolverine can't just waltz in and challenge T'Challa for the throne, only a Wakandan can do that (unless the king decides otherwise I guess). And everything we've seen so far indicates you don't use special powers or anything during a tribal challenge (except KM), just cunning and martial arts. Though we've seen Nehanda use magic which begs the question of whether Wakandans can use that or mutations during a fight against the BP.

T'Challa's gotten substantial upgrades over the years lol, if there's one thing we can't criticize Marvel for it's giving him updates to his powers. Vibranium weave suit, kinetic energy manipulation, all types of energy blades, massive tech feats, and legitimate wins against other top tier fighters. The T'Challa of today obliterates 10 T'Challa's from the Don McGregor days and I'd even say the T'Challa we saw today (which should be the standard) wipes the floor with Priest's in a straight up fight (no prep or additional toys allowed).

T'Challa not being able to scrap with Black Bolt or Namor at the drop of a hat isn't an insult or something to be worried about. T'Challa's thing has NEVER been firepower, it's been top tier martial arts and advanced personal tech that elevates him to mid-level.

People don't call him the Most Dangerous Man in the World because he hits the hardest or shoots the more powerful laser. It's his ability to think ahead and manipulate coupled with virtually endless resources and supertech that allows him to rival guys guys like Thanos or Doom.

I'm not saying he needs to physically go blow for blow. I'm saying he should have tricks up his sleeve at all times. Yes that does mean giving problems to characters like Dr Doom, Namor, and even black bolt at the drop of a dime. Not in some type of arm wrestling match but in a tactical and technical way absolutely. Priest had Tchalla summoning the spirits of his ancestors way back when he was fighting mephisto. Maybe right now he's just better at it. Thinking ahead means always always always being equipped to handle these types of threats as the King of a nation he's sworn to protect. He can never not be ready for Doom or someone the equivalent to show up. He's got too much on the line and enough paranoia for all of us.

[Ekie]

I'm not assuming anything happened, I'm just saying what was seen on panel and what hasn't been seen since. Whether the gauntlets were tech or techno-sorcery isn't the point. It's not part of the regular skillset, just like the consecrated napalm or lightsaber. Marvel didn't see it as important enough to role into future appearances for the character and it's basically a one-off that can be excused as prep.

Same goes for the hammer refusing to hit him. That was clearly an instance of T'Challa's ancestry taking precedence and T'Challa's awareness of that makes it more a "prep"/circumstantial feat than anything indicating T'Challa is any more powerful than he was before using it. Whether that was KoTD or not doesn't really make a difference.

I must've forgotten that part about them talking about going at it one-on-one, but a single instance of T'Challa taking down BD solo doesn't really make me think Marvel looks at him as a top-tier. I think most writers (rightfully) consider him below Iron Man and in the general area of Spider-Man. Which is not a bad place to be when he's got top-tier intelligence/prep skills and thus the means to hit above his weight class as needed. Like Batman.

Most writers underestimate him (some for questionable reasons) but the important ones don't seem to be doing so (Hickman, Aaron, Ewing). Maybe we should expect more of the other writers.
and to say that his ancestry is the only thing that stopped the hammer from hitting him is to say that the hammer is sentient and sensed that ancestry by itself then hit the brakes. That doesn't make sense

[Ekie]

Again, T'Challa scales. Hickman gave him some nice showings against some powerful characters ... but he also had BP fight an obvious Batman clone to a relative draw.

It's no different than the real Batman, who can face Riddler on a Tuesday in Gotham and face Darkseid on a Thursday. Certain heroes are capable of scaling to different level threats. BP can throw down with Kingpin, or he can throw down with Black Dwarf and everything in between. And that's a strength to the character... it means he's a far more usable character.

Black panther powered should never throw down with kingpin. We don't know the capabilities of that alternate universe Batman so that's a hard one to judge. All we know about him is that he's been surviving fights with multiversal beings over and over along with his superhero friends. And that's ignoring the fact that Batman has a certain God comic status amoung writers and fans.

Right now the only scaling that he seems to be doing is Coats version versus Everyone elses since Secret wars2 ended.

[XPac]

Most writers underestimate him (some for questionable reasons) but the important ones don't seem to be doing so (Hickman, Aaron, Ewing). Maybe we should expect more of the other writers.
and to say that his ancestry is the only thing that stopped the hammer from hitting him is to say that the hammer is sentient and sensed that ancestry by itself then hit the brakes. That doesn't make sense

One of Aarons retcons is that the hammer has a degree of sentience. And at least according to T'Challa's dialogie it could sense his ancestry.

But yes... it doesn't make sense. Aaron has a knack of just pulling junk out of thin air. It's just something you have to get used to when you read his stuff.

[chief12d]

I'm not saying he needs to physically go blow for blow. I'm saying he should have tricks up his sleeve at all times. Yes that does mean giving problems to characters like Dr Doom, Namor, and even black bolt problems at the drop of a dime. Not in some type of arm wrestling match but in a tactical and technical way absolutely. Priest had Tchalla summoning the spirits of his ancestors way back when he was fighting mephisto. Maybe right now he's just better at it. Thinking ahead means always always always being equipped to handle these types of threats as the King of a nation he's sworn to protect. He can never not be ready for Doom or someone the equivalent to show up. He's got too much on the line and enough paranoia for all of us.

Ah I see what you mean. You want the writer to give him whatever tech/magical asset he needs in a particular moment in time to fight whoever happens to be in front of him. Can't say I'm a fan of that but I think I get what you want to see more of. I prefer a T'Challa that like Batman, when written well at least, has genuine limitations on what he has access to on a regular basis. I don't dislike the Aaron approach of random stuff, but it does come off like random asspulls and to a certain extent it does diminish his base skills.

For example, I think T'Challa's regular powers shouldn't require him to bust out lightsabers against vampires. Top-tier martial arts, vibranium weave suit, anti-metal claws, kinetic energy absorption/redirection, and energy daggers is more than a match for most threats we can expect T'Challa to face in regular stories. It's only when things really escalate that I need to see him doing stuff like summoning his ancestors. T'Challa should be ready for Doom but I don't think having him bust out a trusty vibranium anti-techno sorcery bubble whenever they throw down is the way to go about it.

[chief12d]

Most writers underestimate him (some for questionable reasons) but the important ones don't seem to be doing so (Hickman, Aaron, Ewing). Maybe we should expect more of the other writers.
and to say that his ancestry is the only thing that stopped the hammer from hitting him is to say that the hammer is sentient and sensed that ancestry by itself then hit the brakes. That doesn't make sense

But the hammer does have a degree of sentience as established by Aaron. It knows his bloodline and knew not to attack him. Not saying that's conclusive but clearly if T'Challa wasn't a descendant of someone who had wielded the hammer and become acquainted with it, it wouldn't have responded to him the way it did.

[XPac]

Black panther powered should never throw down with kingpin. We don't know the capabilities of that alternate universe Batman so that's a hard one to judge. All we know about him is that he's been surviving fights with multiversal beings over and over along with his superhero friends. And that's ignoring the fact that Batman has a certain God comic status amoung writers and fans.

Right now the only scaling that he seems to be doing is Coats version versus Everyone elses since Secret wars2 ended.

I think you can even see that scaling in the fight with Moon Knight. Yes, T'Challa won that fight and he won it decisively. But if it were Doom or Namor, the fight probably would have lasted a single panel. Written properly, a Doom or a Namor really doesn't scale to an opponent at MK's level (when he's not boosted by the power of a bunch of other Avengers). But T'Challa can scale to the degree where MK can put up a heck of a fight even in a losing effort.

But again, that's not a weakness to the character... that's a strength. It means simialr to Batman you can use him in any story and it works.

[XJlock]

Speaking of which, who would you guys say are T'Challa's closest friends in the superhero community? Who would you like to see him interact with more?

I would like to see T'Challa interact more with Jeannine Sauvage since she mentioned that their bond started with their parents. What could have made T'Chaka cross path with the family possessing for generations the sword called La Fleur du Mal?

[Ezyo1000]

Wakandan law doesn't even recognize the outside world though. Namor or Wolverine can't just waltz in and challenge T'Challa for the throne, only a Wakandan can do that (unless the king decides otherwise I guess). And everything we've seen so far indicates you don't use special powers or anything during a tribal challenge (except KM), just cunning and martial arts. Though we've seen Nehanda use magic which begs the question of whether Wakandans can use that or mutations during a fight against the BP.

T'Challa's gotten substantial upgrades over the years lol, if there's one thing we can't criticize Marvel for it's giving him updates to his powers. Vibranium weave suit, kinetic energy manipulation, all types of energy blades, massive tech feats, and legitimate wins against other top tier fighters. The T'Challa of today obliterates 10 T'Challa's from the Don McGregor days and I'd even say the T'Challa we saw today (which should be the standard) wipes the floor with Priest's in a straight up fight (no prep or additional toys allowed).

T'Challa not being able to scrap with Black Bolt or Namor at the drop of a hat isn't an insult or something to be worried about. T'Challa's thing has NEVER been firepower, it's been top tier martial arts and advanced personal tech that elevates him to mid-level.

People don't call him the Most Dangerous Man in the World because he hits the hardest or shoots the more powerful laser. It's his ability to think ahead and manipulate coupled with virtually endless resources and supertech that allows him to rival guys guys like Thanos or Doom.

I would like to saw, even on Priest book he straight up knocks Namor back 15 feet with a single punch, so it's not at all like he can't throw down with Namor our of the blue of needed, just not preferred. As for the fight with MK. On torn, because he straight up wrecked mk, but at the same time Priest had him squaring up against IF in his run and it's clear that if he wanted to he could of killed him. Now granted mk also beat danny's ass in this arc so I dunno, maybe Has T'Challa gets the advantage over Priest T'Challa since mk was also powered in this issue.

[Ezyo1000]

Again, T'Challa scales. Hickman gave him some nice showings against some powerful characters ... but he also had BP fight an obvious Batman clone to a relative draw.

It's no different than the real Batman, who can face Riddler on a Tuesday in Gotham and face Darkseid on a Thursday. Certain heroes are capable of scaling to different level threats. BP can throw down with Kingpin, or he can throw down with Black Dwarf and everything in between. And that's a strength to the character... it means he's a far more usable character.

Eh I don't think the comparison to the Batman analogue isna good one. T'Challa is Batman 2.0. anything bats can do T'Challa does better. And that fight wasn't doing any favors to T'Challa because it wouldn't be a draw. The fight with Batman would go how the fight with MK went. With T'Challa telling bruce he doesn't have the time to kill him while bats he laying on the ground bloodied and beaten. Even for Street level stuff there's a limit and I would say T'Challa is at the I upper street level. If he is squaring against kingpin it's not going to be like in KoW, he would straight wreck KP in a fight. Its going to be more a game of chess

[XPac]

Eh I don't think the comparison to the Batman analogue isna good one. T'Challa is Batman 2.0. anything bats can do T'Challa does better. And that fight wasn't doing any favors to T'Challa because it wouldn't be a draw. The fight with Batman would go how the fight with MK went. With T'Challa telling bruce he doesn't have the time to kill him while bats he laying on the ground bloodied and beaten. Even for Street level stuff there's a limit and I would say T'Challa is at the I upper street level. If he is squaring against kingpin it's not going to be like in KoW, he would straight wreck KP in a fight. Its going to be more a game of chess

Lets be real here... the fight with the real Batman would go exactly like that, because it's Batman. It's the reason the guy can fight Superman. Look at what the Batman who Laughs is doing over in DC books right now.

[MindofShadow]

The King of the Dead strength level thing confuses me, because now he is supposed to have all of the strength of all the previous Black Panther, which is vague when Hickman set it up that way. Because if he's not any stronger with all of their strength than he normally is (3 or 4 tons), then where does the strength come in at when he also has all of their knowledge and experience as well?

Years ago, Hickman tweeted to someone about the King of the Dead powers that "the knowledge is the real get", so I do think T'Challa is supposed to literally have the knowledge and experience of all the previous Black Panthers. The strength thing was vague to me because it wasn't specified whether that meant physical strength or inner/mental strength/toughness.

There is nothing to be confused about.

Hickman created KotD to:

- Give T'challa back his black panther powers
- give him the zombie control ending he wanted
- give him a kingly title so he can stand in a room with the rest of hte illuminati
- create more drama by having T'challa have to deal with this ancestors during the incursion stuff


That is literally it. There is nothing more to it.

[MindofShadow]

- Scarlet Witch messing with stuff in WandaVision
- Loki doing multiverse time travel stuff
- Dr. Strange called Multiverse of Madness
- Kang confirmed for Ant-Man 3
- Jamie Foxx being cast again for Electro in Spider-Man 3


... the farfetched "just use a different T'challa in the multiverse" isn't quite as farfetched anymore lol. I still thing it is dumb but not impossilbe.

(and hey imagine that. all those rumor sites never once mentioned Jamie Foxx coming back. Not. One. Time. im utterly shocked. they are so reliable!)