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  1. #796
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    There's plenty of negativity and cynicims about the US government in the Captain America book... just not in Steve Rogers himself. We're seeing plenty to dislike about the US government in Coates Captain America book. It's not all rainbows and unicorns. And for marvel as a whole it never was. Comics have never been afraid to paint the US badly in their stories. Plenty to be natative and cynical about, even in the Captain America book.
    But as you yourself, have stated, this negativity does not extend to Steve Roger's himself.

    I'm sure this irony isn't lost on you.

  2. #797
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium Weave View Post
    The cartoon, which is really good, does not mean fans of the comic should not expresses their dissatisfaction with the writer on the main comic book, i.e. Coates. Or how T'Challa is being handled by editorial.

    Also, I believe his billion dollar-Best Picture Nomination (1st Superhero Movie to do so)-solo movie has earned him his own cartoon, bunch of books, and to be leading the Avengers. Spider-man, with 6 movies under his belt has not accomplished all of those feats. Far from Home was the 1st spiderman movie to reach a billion ( being the 6th spiderman movie, which followed Endgame).

    The main title has sat at less than 19k in sales for 4 months now. NO other BP series has been that low for that long. Especially with all the notoriety Panther has received in the media. It is cause for concern of our beloved character and fans should (and have the right) to speak out.
    Oh, I'm not saying fans shouldn't express dissatisfaction in the writer of the main book. I'm merely arguing against the notion that marvel doesn't care about the character.

  3. #798
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium Weave View Post
    In case you did read from my post I said, Funny how all of his negativity & cynicism has eluded Steve Rogers. He has Steve confidently giving a speech to calm a crowd in the lastest issue of Cap America, but had that been Panther it would have been Changimere or some other supporting character.

    Look.....there is no point to get into a debate about facts. Obviously, the two comic books written by the same writer show the way he feels about one verses the other. I think many know why Coates is writing Steve one way and T'Challa the other. I am not going to get into the details of that here.
    I read your post. You're arging he's injecting slavery into an african country because of his warped view of the world... and I'm saying that same view point is filtering into his handling of the US in Captain America. He's doing similar things... the biggest differene is no one cares if he portrays the US in a negative light because marvel always does that anyways.

    He's a political writer doing exactly what someone might expect a political writer to do when he's writing a comic book, whether it's Wakanda or the US or some Galactic Empire.

  4. #799
    Incredible Member Vibranium Weave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I read your post. You're arging he's injecting slavery into an african country because of his warped view of the world... and I'm saying that same view point is filtering into his handling of the US in Captain America. He's doing similar things... the biggest differene is no one cares if he portrays the US in a negative light because marvel always does that anyways.

    He's a political writer doing exactly what someone might expect a political writer to do when he's writing a comic book, whether it's Wakanda or the US or some Galactic Empire.
    I didn't mention the USA. I said Steve Rogers.

  5. #800
    Incredible Member Vibranium Weave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Oh, I'm not saying fans shouldn't express dissatisfaction in the writer of the main book. I'm merely arguing against the notion that marvel doesn't care about the character.
    I think you glossed over the accomplishments of the Black Panther film.

  6. #801
    Incredible Member Vibranium Weave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr MajestiK View Post
    But as you yourself, have stated, this negativity does not extend to Steve Roger's himself.

    I'm sure this irony isn't lost on you.
    This is the point I was making.

  7. #802
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium Weave View Post
    I didn't mention the USA. I said Steve Rogers.
    He's a political writer writing inherently political characters. Thus he's going to use both characters countries in a narrative which will almost certainly be allegories for his real life political views. And not shockingly, that includes shwoing negative aspects of both the US and Wakanda. Basically, he's doing exactly what anyone would expect him to do when he was hired for the job.

    He's doing very similar things on the books. The big difference being Cap fans don't care if his country happens to look bad in the stories but BP fans do.

    It is fair to say that Coates is writing a Steve Rogers who isn't overly negative or cynical. But Steve Rogers is probably the least cynical and negative person in marvel... and you can frankly argue even all of comic book fiction. Lessso than T'Challa... though honestly I wouldn't say Coates writes T'Challa as overly negative or Cynical either. Maybe at the start of the first season, but that's about it.

  8. #803
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium Weave View Post
    I think you glossed over the accomplishments of the Black Panther film.
    Film accomplished a lot... which I think further demonstrates that marvel does care about the character. He's got a movie, a cartoon, and multiple books under his belt. That's pretty good if you ask me.

  9. #804
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Its really multiple facts. One tond of negativity in T'Challas book and not Steve, Steve is the driving force in his book while supporting cast is driving in T'Challas, and the most offensive, villain's in T'Challas book are saying that out of franchise Characters, not the title Character, are the hope and key to Victory for Wakanda and Coates made up maroons. Like, what the actual fuq is that about and how does marvel editorial let that happen and endorse such bull isht?

  10. #805
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    He's a political writer writing inherently political characters. Thus he's going to use both characters countries in a narrative which will almost certainly be allegories for his real life political views. And not shockingly, that includes shwoing negative aspects of both the US and Wakanda. Basically, he's doing exactly what anyone would expect him to do when he was hired for the job.

    He's doing very similar things on the books. The big difference being Cap fans don't care if his country happens to look bad in the stories but BP fans do.

    It is fair to say that Coates is writing a Steve Rogers who isn't overly negative or cynical. But Steve Rogers is probably the least cynical and negative person in marvel... and you can frankly argue even all of comic book fiction. Lessso than T'Challa... though honestly I wouldn't say Coates writes T'Challa as overly negative or Cynical either. Maybe at the start of the first season, but that's about it.
    Except the thing is you can't use Wakanda ad a allegory for the real world because Wakandas established history and creation was a direct antithesis to the real world viewed Africa and a what if there was a place in Africa to inspire hope because it resisted western influence.

    Hudlin made it unconquered and spiritually and technologically advanced Utopia basically, and Hickman expanded on this at the end of tro by saying Wakanda will be the beacon of hope for humanity.

    So for Coates to come in and say, actually Wakanda is not only the same as the rest of the world, but they sre worse because they enslaved and banished the natives of Wakanda, then when sent intk a wormhole enslaved 5 galaxies for 2000 years, worse then anything the West has done, on top of their nation falling into chaos (unexplained) full of rape, misogyny, gender inequality, and an uncaring government that goes completely against established continuity?

    It's disingenuous at best and shoes a clear and biased agenda that has nothing to do with the betterment of tchalla abd his mythos or inspiration to new and old reader's and fans of black panther

  11. #806
    Incredible Member Vibranium Weave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Keep your head up. BP had a hugely successful movie, he’s got great solo and team runs in his past, and he’s had good animated showings too. BP2 is coming and will no doubt be excellent. His solo is really boring right now, but characters have bounced back from much worse with less. Just look at Iron Man, he was pretty much ruined after Civil War turned him into a fascist and it took the RDJ movie to save him. Hulk went almost an entire decade without a good run until Ewing got put on the book. Hopefully Coates will move on in a year or so, preferably around the time BP2 comes out. People love T’Challa and always will, one crap run won’t change that.
    I hope your statements turn out to be true, Vordan. I have been reading comic books of different character that i never thought I would read and have been enjoying them, like Thor or Aquaman. But, as I read them I ask myself," Why can't the Black Panther series be like this? So much wasted opportunities."

  12. #807
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium Weave View Post
    This is the point I was making.
    And it was a well made point that would under normal circumstances be acknowledged as being such.

    Unfortunately, some will choose to remain wilfully obtuse as to the the only answer worth considering as regards Coates sustained abuse of the BP Mythos.

    The number of books T'Challa appears in, remains irrelevant if there is ZERO coherence governing the overall portrayal of his character across ALL of these books.

    The above is all the more essential within a book that is supposed to be his ongoing SOLO.

    That's the gold standard that has served as the foundation of every solo book Marvel has released for any and all of their major characters.

    Unfortunately, it would appear that Marvel have decided to give Ta Nehisi Coates carte blanche in his ongoing sabotage of T'Challa as a compellingly assertive and dynamic protagonist and, his ghettoised portrayal of Wakanda.

    As my good friend Ezyo has pointed out previously, if a Caucasian writer had written half of the stuff Coates has poured into the BP Mythos, said writer would be viewed in much the same light as Terry Gilliam.

    But hey, iybiswhat it is.

    There will always be some within the industry and readership, who continue to make excuses for Coates or even worse, mansplain on his behalf ad nauseum.

  13. #808
    Extraordinary Member Cville's Avatar
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    If you have little children, this make a good bedtime story.

    20200201_172607.jpg

  14. #809
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    He's a political writer writing inherently political characters. Thus he's going to use both characters countries in a narrative which will almost certainly be allegories for his real life political views. And not shockingly, that includes shwoing negative aspects of both the US and Wakanda. Basically, he's doing exactly what anyone would expect him to do when he was hired for the job.

    He's doing very similar things on the books. The big difference being Cap fans don't care if his country happens to look bad in the stories but BP fans do.

    It is fair to say that Coates is writing a Steve Rogers who isn't overly negative or cynical. But Steve Rogers is probably the least cynical and negative person in marvel... and you can frankly argue even all of comic book fiction. Lessso than T'Challa... though honestly I wouldn't say Coates writes T'Challa as overly negative or Cynical either. Maybe at the start of the first season, but that's about it.
    Let's just cut to the chase here.

    A majority of the issues most contributers to this thread have regarding Coates treatment of the BP Mythos, revolve strictly around his wholesale undermining of the titular character within what's ostensibly supposed to be his SOLO book.

    The fact that Coates has also injected his own a$$ backwards and highly questionable Ideologies upon an Afrofuturistic concept created by two Jewish creators, in response to the very stereotypical imagery Coates is currently peddling, remains one of the biggest ironies.

    It's quite poignant that Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, had the open minded creativity to launch the introduction of an Afrofuturistic concept long before the term was phrased or ideology became a thing.

    It's even more telling that a supposedly "woke" writer would be the 21st century architect of what remains one of the most concerted pushback against T'Challa's forward momentum and character trajectory post Jonathan Mabbery's Doomwar.

  15. #810
    Astonishing Member Redjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium Weave View Post
    The cartoon, which is really good, does not mean fans of the comic should not expresses their dissatisfaction with the writer on the main comic book, i.e. Coates. Or how T'Challa is being handled by editorial.

    Also, I believe his billion dollar-Best Picture Nomination (1st Superhero Movie to do so)-solo movie has earned him his own cartoon, bunch of books, and to be leading the Avengers. Spider-man, with 6 movies under his belt has not accomplished all of those feats. Far from Home was the 1st spiderman movie to reach a billion ( being the 6th spiderman movie, which followed Endgame).

    The main title has sat at less than 19k in sales for 4 months now. NO other BP series has been that low for that long. Especially with all the notoriety Panther has received in the media. It is cause for concern of our beloved character and fans should (and have the right) to speak out.
    Point of clarification:

    BP was still shooting principal photography when we started work on BP's Quest.

    No scripts were released to us or anyone else on the TV side. We had no info on what Coogler planned to do, which characters beyond Shuri, Killmonger and T'Challa would be used.We had no idea how Coogler planned to use them.This is why our version is so radically different than the movie.

    The reason our Killmonger's mask looks as it does is because the publicity folks from the movie released that one African mask photo and we thought, "Whoa, that looks cool. Let's use it."

    Marvel had NO IDEA how big the movie would open and was pulled up short by the phenomenon even though hundreds of people on social media TOLD them for a YEAR what was about to happen. They were behaving as if they expected ANT MAN numbers.

    We were not the result of BP's success because it hadn't happened yet.
    Last edited by Redjack; 02-02-2020 at 02:40 PM. Reason: typos

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