Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[Ezyo1000]

And until you are writing these characters for Marvel in a professional setting earning a paycheck (like Liss and Coates) I have only your word here in this forum that you are any good.

"Critcism" in these forums are usually just another way of saying "My idea is better and the story would be better if the writer wrote it this way."

I mean,shitty writing shitty writing. I have read fanfiction that would blow some professional writers out the water. Just because they are employed by marvel doesn't automatically Make them better. Prime examples, Coates, nnendi, roxanne gay, Yona Harvey, Vita. All it means is that they are working for them doesn't mean they are good at it. And most criticism from BP fans is about the treatment of the character or rather mistreatment. Evan Narcisse isn't a comic writer and he wrote a better T'Challa then all of the above I just listed. And his mini was the first time he wrote comics and he was a comic fan. Really what fanfiction writers around here need is the opportunity and I'm sure some of them could be Very successful especially how much lore and research they put into their fiction

[XPac]

I agree with except that Storm as T'challa one true love who he can never be together with works well. Storm as the old flame is perfect. Storm as the active girlfriend isn't that good.

I think Storm as a girlfriend worked okay ... that gives the flexibility for them to be together when the writers wanted them to, or be apart when they don't. It's when Hudlin got them married which I think was the mistake in hindsight (though I was and still am a fan of it). That made it harder to navigate when one or both parties needed to switch gears.

[Ezyo1000]

i've been on CBR since long before they purged the old boards. before i was employed anywhere as any kind of writer.

i [redacted]ing love comic books. LOVE.

it's absolutely possible, even likely, that the next greatest creators for marvel and dc are right here, right now, somewhere.

and yes, the handshake network was in full effect for nearly a century, preventing new voices and new blood from entering on the writing side. if you follow sports you'll know, for a slightly shorter time, there were no black quarterbacks even LONG after the NFL was integrated. Zero black coaches for even longer. Those are considered brain positions, control positions, and they aren't handed out by the powers that be easily.

but competition from other media created desperation in the upper ranks. so did a (predictably) dwindling fanbase, so did the fact that both of the big two have been absorbed by companies that are interested in meeting the MOST people in the fanbase they possibly can rather than just catering to a bunch of aging white males.

so doors got opened. doors continue to open. lots of us are getting to swing.

what nearly all of us have in common is success, sometimes massive success, in other media PRIOR to being accepted at either of the big two. Some folks around here need to take that as a lesson in how the real world of freelance art works for non-white creators.

I'm not a fan of croneyism but the truth is, if Gerry Duggan hadn't mentioned my name to Axel, I would never have gotten that first call. I was WELL into my TV writing/producing career at the time. I'd already created several comics on my own and even then I was quizzed and vetted as if I was some noobie.

A lot of people won't put up with that. Money-wise, writing comics is not even close to a lateral move. The salary to write a comic isn't even a tenth of what we make to sell one script for tv. so anyone who comes from a successful novel career or tv career to write comics is doing so because they LOVE them. no other reason. Everyone in the audience should assume that love. Even for the creator takes you don't like.

I don't personally like the Coates run but i don't spend time bashing his take. it's not my take. i would do it differently. so what? of course i would. i'm not him and he's not me. different writers do different things. that's life. if i'd won out in that pitch session there would certainly be a thread like this one where people bashed my version of the panther. I know Reggie Hudlin personally and I will die on the hill that putting T'Challa and Ororo together was an error. But Reggie gave us SHURI. For that alone, he deserves praise and respect.

I've read a lot of criticism of Coates but a few of the things he did should stand the test of time. If i got to write the book, I wouldn't be going in with an eye to sweeping the board clean but i would make a lot of changes. because I'm me, not him.

and some people would hate those changes.

i don't think it needs to be such a fight all the time about this stuff. Lots more good stuff is coming. a lot of people are trying new stuff and a lot more are coming after them. some of those people are here, right now.

I support the trying. all the trying. even the stuff i don't like.

My take on whether a writer comes at it because they love the character isn't how I view it. Frankly it's their actions that speak louder to me followed by what they say.

The reason alot of people here don't like Coates is first by what he SAID. His first 3 interviews he had nothing good to say about T'Challa. He only spoke on how he understand this, and couldn't wrap his head around that. And it took his 4th interview before he said what he did like abd even that was brief. Followed by one of his interviews him straight up saying that hardcore fans aren't going to like his run and he is just going to do it anyways? Doesn't inspire one to think "wow this guy really this character and wants to write about him". Then came the actual comic. And you could see the disdain for the character at every turn, lack of respect for him, lack of respect for his world and what he represents and what his franchise represents to the black community, a beacon of hope, and he turned it into what the west for the longest time (and still does to this day) views Africa.

No writer is above criticism, you have been on the BP forum long enough to see that no writer is without fault, hell you experienced this with BP quest.

However, like you, Hudlin, Priest and liss, you captured the characters voice, you did the research, you understood the mythos and YOU WANTED to elevate the character m, and when a person comes at that angle, it shows and fans can see it. Fans aren't all just foaming at the mouth when they don't get their way or it's not done how they wanted it to go, there are things I wish happened different in the runs of all the names listed above, but ultimately, because the mindset involved in like those runs and the good vastly outweighs the bad, and you can tell there was love and respect for the character. With Coates? It feels quite the opposite

[Cville]

Wasn't Vitas' portion of Shuri the two middle issues that had nothing to do with the main story? Shuri met Miles and Riri or Kamala.

[MindofShadow]

It’s time to recenter T’Challa as the main star of his book.

you have to have a writer that likes him for that to happen.

Coates, Gay, Vita, and the rest of the crew don't give a **** about him. He is the popular prop to bring in eyeballs while they focus on the characters they like or the ideas they like.

There have been things from all writers of BP that I haven't liked. Whether it is Don's monologues of doom. Kirby's zaniness, Priest's pretty terrible ending, Hudlin bringing in Storm, Mayberry and his doom fetish, Aaron and his wolverine fetish, Hickman and his F4 fetish, Liss premise that made no sense, Narcisse tried t odo too much, etc.

But they all still seemed to like Black Panther... they just had different ideas with what to do with the character. Or in Priest case, he was just a professional veteran comic writer.

The last 5 years, it has FELT like a lot o fhte peeps writing the main and spin off books actually likes the dude. At all.

Which is weird because, comic wise... he is a pretty noble dude. He is a king that constantly goes above nad beyond to save the world, not jus this nation (he could easily isolate and develop a super power). He is constantly trying to drag Wakanda out of its isolation/xenophobic ways. His moral compass is pure as hell. He isn't a murder. He isn't a vigilante. He doesn't bang a different chick every week (dudes had... 2? love interests ever?). He has no "dark past" he is trying to correct. He is the opposite of a walking black male stereotype.

So why don't they like him mane lol? Or at least tolerate him enough to leave him alone? Some deep seated psychological **** going on or something.

[MindofShadow]

Wasn't Vitas' portion of Shuri the two middle issues that had nothing to do with the main story? Shuri met Miles and Riri or Kamala.

That sounds right.

I think Vita wrote the Ironheart issues too right where Shuri cameod?

[Ezyo1000]

I think Storm as a girlfriend worked okay ... that gives the flexibility for them to be together when the writers wanted them to, or be apart when they don't. It's when Hudlin got them married which I think was the mistake in hindsight (though I was and still am a fan of it). That made it harder to navigate when one or both parties needed to switch gears.

No, Hudlins mistake was getting them together all instead of having him pass her up like he did to Monica Lynn. Should of just made a new LI. Storm has been nothing but a parasite since then. And never has she been a benefit or positive contributor to T'Challa and his mythos

[XPac]

No, Hudlins mistake was getting them together all instead of having him pass her up like he did to Monica Lynn. Should of just made a new LI. Storm has been nothing but a parasite since then. And never has she been a benefit or positive contributor to T'Challa and his mythos

Personally I though we got a lot of nice stories out of the marriage, so I was happy with it.

But I guess all we can do is wait and see what happens next.

[4sake Baned]

No, Hudlins mistake was getting them together all instead of having him pass her up like he did to Monica Lynn. Should of just made a new LI. Storm has been nothing but a parasite since then. And never has she been a benefit or positive contributor to T'Challa and his mythos

Can’t be better said...

[Ezyo1000]

you have to have a writer that likes him for that to happen.

Coates, Gay, Vita, and the rest of the crew don't give a **** about him. He is the popular prop to bring in eyeballs while they focus on the characters they like or the ideas they like.

There have been things from all writers of BP that I haven't liked. Whether it is Don's monologues of doom. Kirby's zaniness, Priest's pretty terrible ending, Hudlin bringing in Storm, Mayberry and his doom fetish, Aaron and his wolverine fetish, Hickman and his F4 fetish, Liss premise that made no sense, Narcisse tried t odo too much, etc.

But they all still seemed to like Black Panther... they just had different ideas with what to do with the character. Or in Priest case, he was just a professional veteran comic writer.

The last 5 years, it has FELT like a lot o fhte peeps writing the main and spin off books actually likes the dude. At all.

Which is weird because, comic wise... he is a pretty noble dude. He is a king that constantly goes above nad beyond to save the world, not jus this nation (he could easily isolate and develop a super power). He is constantly trying to drag Wakanda out of its isolation/xenophobic ways. His moral compass is pure as hell. He isn't a murder. He isn't a vigilante. He doesn't bang a different chick every week (dudes had... 2? love interests ever?). He has no "dark past" he is trying to correct. He is the opposite of a walking black male stereotype.

So why don't they like him mane lol? Or at least tolerate him enough to leave him alone? Some deep seated psychological **** going on or something.

I agree except for Mayberry, that was a pure bait and switch he pulled with DW, but the other's yeah. Also don't forget gilis lol.

I think you actually answered your own question in what you wrote about why they don't like him.. He ISN'T a walking Black male stereotype and Wakanda isn't a African stereotype thst the west has crafted, and what did Coates, gay, and co all try to do? Coates and gay tried to spin that T'Challa is a mab surrounded by beautiful women who protect him and his royal family so how could he NOT take advantage of that? How could women not be treated as sexual objects for men? "Bred by men to be given to other men" how could a (African) nation as advanced as Wakanda not descend onto pure barbarism when things go sideways??

They inserted all that Isht into the mythos because they don't like the fact that T'Challa is a good man with a good heart who cares for his people and that Wakanda is advanced enough and wise enough to treat everyone equally. In fact, there are more women in positions of power in BPs book then any other superhero comic outside ensembles.

But somehow he is uncaring about his nation and wants to be in a lab all day and mope about not wanting to be King.

[Ezyo1000]

Personally I though we got a lot of nice stories out of the marriage, so I was happy with it.

But I guess all we can do is wait and see what happens next.

Yeah we did, and we also got a lot of bullshit from it while they were married and still to this day, a decade after the marriage ended, we still are suffering from the same bullshit.

The marriage was not worth the trouble that Storm has caused to T'Challa and the mythos, and now writers and fans assume she deserves something from the franchise even though she ain't apart of it. Notice how in recent years all her major power ups or focus arcs revolve around Wakanda? What has she brought to T'Challa and his mythos to return the goodwill? **** talking abd shade throwing... What has she actually contributed to the mythos?

[4sake Baned]

I agree except for Mayberry, that was a pure bait and switch he pulled with DW, but the other's yeah. Also don't forget gilis lol.

I think you actually answered your own question in what you wrote about why they don't like him.. He ISN'T a walking Black male stereotype and Wakanda isn't a African stereotype thst the west has crafted, and what did Coates, gay, and co all try to do? Coates and gay tried to spin that T'Challa is a mab surrounded by beautiful women who protect him and his royal family so how could he NOT take advantage of that? How could women not be treated as sexual objects for men? "Bred by men to be given to other men" how could a (African) nation as advanced as Wakanda not descend onto pure barbarism when things go sideways??

They inserted all that Isht into the mythos because they don't like the fact that T'Challa is a good man with a good heart who cares for his people and that Wakanda is advanced enough and wise enough to treat everyone equally. In fact, there are more women in positions of power in BPs book then any other superhero comic outside ensembles.

But somehow he is uncaring about his nation and wants to be in a lab all day and mope about not wanting to be King.

There writing is very anti-black & anti-African The very opposite of the pro black & woke masquerade as.

[Marvell2100]

Yea. Looks like he got two of them here.

Dang! I just noticed this. BP looks like a doughboy in the bottom panel!

Lay off those Ororo...I mean Oreo cookies man.

[Cville]

No, Hudlins mistake was getting them together all instead of having him pass her up like he did to Monica Lynn. Should of just made a new LI. Storm has been nothing but a parasite since then. And never has she been a benefit or positive contributor to T'Challa and his mythos

Hudlin didn't make a mistake. He did nothing wrong. The only place blame lies is with others who couldn't handle it.

[Marvell2100]

Hudlin didn't make a mistake. He did nothing wrong. The only place blame lies is with others who couldn't handle it.

Yup. Don't blame Hudlin for the X-offices and Marvel's lack of vision regarding what could have been the ultimate power couple in the MU.