Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[XPac]

If she's human, fighting in space would be a problem when she gets tired.

Everyone else in the fight is human too, so it's not like it's that much of a handicap. The fact that she's at least capable of surviving in space if she has to without a ship gives her a big edge over almost everyone else. She's operated in space stories and battles before, so it's doable.

[Ezyo1000]

Wakanda wasn't Utopia from the jump... originally T'Challa was the one who was responsible for it becoming technologically advanced. That was the double edged sword of Hudlin's retcon... the upside being it made more sense. THe downside being it took away arguably T'Challa's most unique feat. And despite it's technological advances, it had it's share of social problems (like any place might and should). When you're taking underage teenage girls to act as wives in training to avoid tribal conflict, there's something seriously wrong there. And that sort of thing is great for storytelling... just not what most would think of when they imagine Utopia.

Uhh yeah Lee and Kirby's introduction to Wakanda was a Utopia, Priest somewhat changed that to be more complex (which is fine as it made sense and when it came down to it, Wakanda was United when threats came to their doorstep)

But your trying to claim that the Utopia was a retcon when it wasn't. It was to start with the FF then it deviated then realigned with Hudlin.

I never said Priest version was a Utopia. Your not reading what im saying and just answering however you please. Also having social issues doesn't mean forcing things into the mythos thst go against established continuity and against the very core of said mythos

[DigiCom]

Uhh yeah Lee and Kirby's introduction to Wakanda was a Utopia, Priest somewhat changed that to be more complex (which is fine as it made sense and when it came down to it, Wakanda was United when threats came to their doorstep)

Also having social issues doesn't mean forcing things into the mythos thst go against established continuity and against the very core of said mythos

Don't you know that people behaving heroically is pure fantasy? Every person on earth is a deeply flawed individual. Isn't that what that great scholar of African Sociology, Terence Gilliam said?

"It gives young black kids the idea that this is something to believe in. Bullshi-"

Thank Jeebus, we have Ta-Nehesi Coates to correct the misconception that people can be better than they are!

[XPac]

Uhh yeah Lee and Kirby's introduction to Wakanda was a Utopia, Priest somewhat changed that to be more complex (which is fine as it made sense and when it came down to it, Wakanda was United when threats came to their doorstep)

But your trying to claim that the Utopia was a retcon when it wasn't. It was to start with the FF then it deviated then realigned with Hudlin.

I never said Priest version was a Utopia. Your not reading what im saying and just answering however you please. Also having social issues doesn't mean forcing things into the mythos thst go against established continuity and against the very core of said mythos

It wasn't Utopia from the jump... again, T'CHalla single handedly elevated the nation. And I"m sorry, but no one guy regardless of how smart is going to eliminate every social problem in existance in a single generation. Yes, he advanced Wakanda. But on the social side of things, it still had problems like any nation should.

Yes, Hudlin deciding that Wakanda was technologically and spiritually advanced prior to T'CHalla is a retcon. THe tech came from T'Challa, and obviously it wasn't spiritually advanced when prior to Hudlin they potentially could go to war over the Doras. If they were spiritually advanced, they wouldn't need the Dora system in the first place.

Your problem is the assumption that because Wakanda was advanced, it was Utopia. In comic fiction, or ANY fiction for that matter being technologically advanded doesnt mean you don't have problems. In fact I'd argue MOST of the time in fiction seemingly Utopian societies end up way more messed up beneath the surface. Wakanda under Lee and Kirby was advanced yes (though again, it wasn't ALWAYS supposed to be that way... that was a Hudlin retcon). But when BP has his own book, we see the flaws. Priest and McGregors books. And that's pretty much necessary.. super hero fiction doesn't really work well in Utopia. If a place was truelly an Utopia it wouldn't need super heroes in the first place.

[Ezyo1000]

Or a crazy thought, what of T'Challa abd Wakanda handled their issues themselves instead of calling gor help? Unless galactic empire Wakanda is going to become a event, there is no need for Wakanda to bot handle this themselves, gives a chance to showcase the power if Wakanda prime, even against advanced empire tech

[XPac]

Don't you know that people behaving heroically is pure fantasy? Every person on earth is a deeply flawed individual. Isn't that what that great scholar of African Sociology, Terence Gilliam said?

"It gives young black kids the idea that this is something to believe in. Bullshi-"

Thank Jeebus, we have Ta-Nehesi Coates to correct the misconception that people can be better than they are!

Marvel never was really great at that even prior to Coates. The heroes were flawed, the public is stupid, and the governments are useless at best and corrupt at worst. We don't see the best of mankind when we see our government building racist giant killer robots. You're not necessarily supposed to look at the marvel world and wish it was the world outside your window.

There is something inspirational about heroes rising above all of that... but the world itself and the people in it as a whole probably aren't something we're meant to be inspired by.

[XPac]

Or a crazy thought, what of T'Challa abd Wakanda handled their issues themselves instead of calling gor help? Unless galactic empire Wakanda is going to become a event, there is no need for Wakanda to bot handle this themselves, gives a chance to showcase the power if Wakanda prime, even against advanced empire tech

If this is an alien invasion it technically doesn't fall under just THEIR issues. At that point in theory he probably should call the Avengers as it's potentially a thread to the whole planet. The rest of the planet, even without T'Challa asking realistically should be reacting to this. But it's not an Avengers story, so it's fair game for Coates to leave them and the rest of the world out of it.

[Ezyo1000]

It wasn't Utopia from the jump... again, T'CHalla single handedly elevated the nation. And I"m sorry, but no one guy regardless of how smart is going to eliminate every social problem in existance in a single generation. Yes, he advanced Wakanda. But on the social side of things, it still had problems like any nation should.

Yes, Hudlin deciding that Wakanda was technologically and spiritually advanced prior to T'CHalla is a retcon. THe tech came from T'Challa, and obviously it wasn't spiritually advanced when prior to Hudlin they potentially could go to war over the Doras. If they were spiritually advanced, they wouldn't need the Dora system in the first place.

Your problem is the assumption that because Wakanda was advanced, it was Utopia. In comic fiction, or ANY fiction for that matter being technologically advanded doesnt mean you don't have problems. In fact I'd argue MOST of the time in fiction seemingly Utopian societies end up way more messed up beneath the surface. Wakanda under Lee and Kirby was advanced yes (though again, it wasn't ALWAYS supposed to be that way... that was a Hudlin retcon). But when BP has his own book, we see the flaws. Priest and McGregors books. And that's pretty much necessary.. super hero fiction doesn't really work well in Utopia. If a place was truelly an Utopia it wouldn't need super heroes in the first place.

Do you even read post Bruh? Where in my oost fod I say Wakanda should not have issues? Where did i say T'Challa wad going to solve all social problems? I didn't. Your need to Check your reading comprehension bruh. And Priest abd McGregor didn't turn Wakanda into stereotypical africa

[XPac]

Do you even read post Bruh? Where in my oost fod I say Wakanda should not have issues? Where did i say T'Challa wad going to solve all social problems? I didn't. Your need to Check your reading comprehension bruh. And Priest abd McGregor didn't turn Wakanda into stereotypical africa

You're were calling Wakanda Utopia. Utopia literally means that everything is perfect.

If you merely mean technologically advanced, then we're not disagree with anything and we can move on.

[DigiCom]

You're were calling Wakanda Utopia. Utopia literally means that everything is perfect.

Actually, utopia literally means "not (a) place"

[XPac]

Actually, utopia literally means "not (a) place"

Well, if that was the context Enzy1000 was describing Wakanda as then I'm not sure I agree with that either (at least within the context of the story). In the MU at least, Wakanda is a place.

[DigiCom]

There is something inspirational about heroes rising above all of that... but the world itself and the people in it as a whole probably aren't something we're meant to be inspired by.

That only works if the heroes are inspirational.

Can you honestly tell me that the actions of T'Challa under Coates are in any way aspirational?

"Zenzi & Tetu are brainwashing (or something) Wakandans to revolt! Our hero heroically gets an outsider to help him summon up a magical army to defeat them!"

"The Midnight Angels are in rebellion! Our hero heroically gives them everything they asked for!"

"The Originators, Adversary, & Klaw are up to stuff! Our hero heroically turns his ex-wife into a goddess to defeat them!"

"The time-lost space expedition has turned into an evil galactic empire! Our hero heroically gets other people (including his ex-wife) to battle them while he lets the spirits of his ancestors scold him so he can do some memory BS!"

Yeah, I can see the average 12-year old eating this up with a spoon!

[DigiCom]

Well, if that was the context Enzy1000 was describing Wakanda as then I'm not sure I agree with that either (at least within the context of the story). In the MU at least, Wakanda is a place.

Yes. In a fictional universe, Wakanda is indeed a place. So discussing how "realistic" it is as a concept is disingenuous at best.

It can be anything. So what's so great about making it reflect the worst parts of reality? And why in the hell would "some kid" want to read about that?

[XPac]

That only works if the heroes are inspirational.

Can you honestly tell me that the actions of T'Challa under Coates are in any way aspirational?

"Zenzi & Tetu are brainwashing (or something) Wakandans to revolt! Our hero heroically gets an outsider to help him summon up a magical army to defeat them!"

"The Midnight Angels are in rebellion! Our hero heroically gives them everything they asked for!"

"The Originators, Adversary, & Klaw are up to stuff! Our hero heroically turns his ex-wife into a goddess to defeat them!"

"The time-lost space expedition has turned into an evil galactic empire! Our hero heroically gets other people (including his ex-wife) to battle them while he lets the spirits of his ancestors scold him so he can do some memory BS!"

Yeah, I can see the average 12-year old eating this up with a spoon!

To me, that just means there's more than 1 inspirational person in the story. Movie T'Challa had plenty of help... heck, he was dead for like a quarter of the movie. That fact didn't stop people from being inspired by him... just meant that plenty could be inspired by people like Shuri too. It's not like it's a contest pitting the characters AGAINST each other. You can find more than one character heroic.

[Mr MajestiK]

Or he could call on some old friends:

In an ideal world where Marvel Editorial actually did their job, T'Challa calling up his Ultimate teammates of recent history, would be the most natural thing in the world.

Unfortunately, the Ultimates as T'Challa's heavy hitter back up, doesn't fit Coates "T'Challa as perennial failure, reliant on Storm" trope.