Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[Redjack]

Except Coates isn't leaving the rest of the world out ofnit. He brought in Storm, Eden, Riri, Monica Cage, Misty and Sam. Most of them aren't even the best people or ideal really for the job yet he injected them into a Wakandan issue. So again, crazy thought, what if T'Challa and Wakanda handled their issues themselves instead of calling for help?

BP- Black Panther stuff, focusing on the dichotomy T'CHalla faces between his duties as king and global super-hero.

Agents of Wakanda- a team of human and empowered WAKANDANS, led by Okoye, handle the international spy game for Wakanda.

some version of that would be my vision.

[Marvell2100]

You're missing the part about near perfect qualities.

And that's why you never see Utopia in fiction. If everything is perfect, or even near perfect there's usually not enough conflict to justify an actual story.

Ezyo's post said "near perfect", not perfect. And there is always a way to create conflict in a perfect society.

Read Paradise Lost by Milton.

[Marvell2100]

BP- Black Panther stuff, focusing on the dichotomy T'CHalla faces between his duties as king and global super-hero.

Agents of Wakanda- a team of human and empowered WAKANDANS, led by Okoye, handle the international spy game for Wakanda.

some version of that would be my vision.

Wakanda can't even stop treehouse rape camps in their own backyard right now.

[Mr MajestiK]

It wasn't Utopia from the jump... again, T'CHalla single handedly elevated the nation. And I"m sorry, but no one guy regardless of how smart is going to eliminate every social problem in existance in a single generation. Yes, he advanced Wakanda. But on the social side of things, it still had problems like any nation should.

Yes, Hudlin deciding that Wakanda was technologically and spiritually advanced prior to T'CHalla is a retcon. THe tech came from T'Challa, and obviously it wasn't spiritually advanced when prior to Hudlin they potentially could go to war over the Doras. If they were spiritually advanced, they wouldn't need the Dora system in the first place.

Your problem is the assumption that because Wakanda was advanced, it was Utopia. In comic fiction, or ANY fiction for that matter being technologically advanded doesnt mean you don't have problems. In fact I'd argue MOST of the time in fiction seemingly Utopian societies end up way more messed up beneath the surface. Wakanda under Lee and Kirby was advanced yes (though again, it wasn't ALWAYS supposed to be that way... that was a Hudlin retcon). But when BP has his own book, we see the flaws. Priest and McGregors books. And that's pretty much necessary.. super hero fiction doesn't really work well in Utopia. If a place was truelly an Utopia it wouldn't need super heroes in the first place.

Bashenga, the very first Black Panther, was obviously astute enough to ascertain that there was something unique about the huge Vibranium meteor that smashed smack dab into the centre of Wakanda so no, as far as uplifting the Wakandan nation goes, Bashenga was that dude.

Wakanda's position as the worlds foremost technologically advanced juggernaut (predating T'Challa's birth) remains the only logical sequence of events when one actually approaches the mythos with an unbiased mind uncluttered with stereotypical views of African history.

[Mr MajestiK]

If this is an alien invasion it technically doesn't fall under just THEIR issues. At that point in theory he probably should call the Avengers as it's potentially a thread to the whole planet. The rest of the planet, even without T'Challa asking realistically should be reacting to this. But it's not an Avengers story, so it's fair game for Coates to leave them and the rest of the world out of it.

It's not a Luke Cage or other street level urban character issue either but that hasn't stopped Coates from shoe horning any of these characters into his insipid storyline.

Namor wept.

[XPac]

Ezyo's post said "near perfect", not perfect. And there is always a way to create conflict in a perfect society.

Read Paradise Lost by Milton.

I think Paradize lost pretty much shows us why Utopia in fiction isn't really possible. At the end of the day, humans are flawed. And that's the case regardless of how tall your skysrappers are or how fuel efficiant your cars are. But Paradise Lost wouldn't be much of a story without those flaws, so it works.

And pretty much any Utopia in fiction ends up that way.

[Marvell2100]

I think Paradize lost pretty much shows us why Utopia in fiction isn't really possible. At the end of the day, humans are flawed. And that's the case regardless of how tall your skysrappers are or how fuel efficiant your cars are. But Paradise Lost wouldn't be much of a story without those flaws, so it works.

And pretty much any Utopia in fiction ends up that way.

No, Paradise Lost disparaged your idea that there was no way to work conflict into a perfect society.

Heaven is a utopia, some just chose not to want to live in it. That does not make it any less perfect.

[XPac]

No, Paradise Lost disparaged your idea that there was no way to work conflict into a perfect society.

Heaven is a utopia, some just chose not to want to live in it. That does not make it any less perfect.

Yeah, I suppose heaven was Utopia minus the attempted coup. If coups can be considered an aspect of Utopia I suppose I can see why some viewed Wakanda as such.

Utopia can't really exist where there's free will unfortunately.

[Mr MajestiK]

If it's fictional, then it can be whatever the writer wants it to be. And that's the point... it can be anything. It was be what Hudlin wants it to be, or what Coates wants it to be or anything in between.

That's why I usually don't waste time complaining about it either way. WHich isn't to say I don't believe fiction shouldn't have rules... it hurts the story if it doesn't. But it's just as valid to reflect on the worst parts of reality as it is the best. In fact for fiction I would dare argue it makes more sense to focus on the worst especially in super hero comics.... but hey, whatever floats the writers boat.

It's not "whatever floats the writers boat" that's important.

It's what maintains the positive forward momentum of the titular character.

That should always remain central and important especially as this is the standard that obtains for all heroic protagonists and even some established antagonists such as Victor Von Doom.

Just imagine Coates writing the further adventures of Aragorn of LOTR fame in much the same way as he's writing T'Challa.

Are you saying that introducing rape camps and stereotypes of medieval savagery would be acceptable in that fictional setting too?

[Ezyo1000]

For the same reason that any other stories have guest characters... because a writer wants them to.

It's like asking why does the US need foreign heroes instead of only american heroes deal with their problems. Because most writers probably don't care what country a super hero is from. If they want to use them, they use them.

storm abd eden aren't really guests, and usually they would announce them. Us given the size you can't say it's a guest appearance.

Again Coates is undermining Wakanda and T'Challa for others l characters mainly Storm and Eden given what was said in the last issue.

[Marvell2100]

Yeah, I suppose heaven was Utopia minus the attempted coup. If coups can be considered an aspect of Utopia I suppose I can see why some viewed Wakanda as such.

Utopia can't really exist where there's free will unfortunately.

So you're saying that utopias are to blame for attempted coups.

[Ezyo1000]

You're missing the part about near perfect qualities.

And that's why you never see Utopia in fiction. If everything is perfect, or even near perfect there's usually not enough conflict to justify an actual story.

except I'm not. Wakanda is highly desirable and nearly perfected qualities. That doesn't equal that there won't be any issues, burning terms of freedoms and quality of living fornits people, it's a Utopia. Abd Hudlin had zero issues putting in conflict. Same thing for Lee Kirby

[XPac]

storm abd eden aren't really guests, and usually they would announce them. Us given the size you can't say it's a guest appearance.

Again Coates is undermining Wakanda and T'Challa for others l characters mainly Storm and Eden given what was said in the last issue.

Yeah, I wouldn't qualify Storm and Eden as guest either. One is dating Shuri (or at least starting to have a relationship with her) and the other is dating T'Challa, so they're sort of regulars. Nothing particular weird about them showing up. Cage and the rest are guests though. Writer wanted to use them, so it did. In part it's probably a case of an agenda at work here... he wanted to give some of the african american characters a bit of spotlight, so he did rather than doing the more logical (from an in universe perspective) thing of calling on the Avengers who obviously don't need the spotlight. But that's not the worst thing in the world.

[XPac]

except I'm not. Wakanda is highly desirable and nearly perfected qualities. That doesn't equal that there won't be any issues, burning terms of freedoms and quality of living fornits people, it's a Utopia. Abd Hudlin had zero issues putting in conflict. Same thing for Lee Kirby

There are plenty of Wakandans whose qualifies are far from perfect. There are murderers and criminals there, just like everywhere else (though I do imagine their rates are very low). That's why we have coups and drugs and killer and kidnappers and super villains and everything else needed to tell super hero stories. They're also isolationist and xenophobic, which is something the main character to this day is still trying to mitigate.

[XPac]

So you're saying that utopias are to blame for attempted coups.

No, I"m saying if a coup is occuring in a place, it's probably not as utopian as advertised.