Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[Vibranium Weave]

My soliloquy...


A hero is generally the self portrait of the creator!


How you feel, think and believe about yourself reflects in your project even if you are not the original creator of said character!


The problem with a lot of black men in general is that deep down we don't see ourselves as the ultimate hero therefore there is a lag in development rarely seen in white male oriented characters!


The average white fanboy really lives vicariously through Batman, James Bond or Spiderman and will actively cosplay as their favorite character as a child with cape/towel tied around their neck or as a young adult dressed for Comic-con!


When black creators are charged with depicting a valiant black male super hero there can be a slight apprehension that can often self sabotage the vision before it even gets started!


Also... Black men rather than leave the excess baggage of life at the door will drag it into the "Escapism" experience and ruin the high of the fantasy part!


AND... Where as white male counterparts do not hesitate going all in sometimes black males are quietly waiting for the BOOM to be lowered on them expecting the white man to dethrone or derail it before it has a chance to thrive!


Basically in theory many black men are too afraid to cosplay as white men and even Asians (anime) do as an afterthought... Brothas be too COOL to don the spandex let alone spend hours making a suit of armor for comic convention photo ops!


Hence the reason why "Black Comic Books Don't Sell" because the salesman doesn't believe in the actual product itself so the potential fanbase responds accordingly!


The exception was the MCU Black Panther which by default was going to be successful because the prior investment had been made leading all the way to Thanos stamping his passport in Wakanda!


Unlike Blade which stood on it's own MCU Black Panther did have it's hand held by previous MCU installments establishing a pattern of ticket sales that assisted it to record breaking heights and beyond!


The late great Stan Lee called us "True Believers" and it's way past time black males be counted whether inside or outside of the Marvel Universe as legitimate creators with no excuses for success or failure!

Thank you for this

[Redjack]

My soliloquy...


A hero is generally the self portrait of the creator!

Hmm. No. While this is sometimes true, it's generally frowned upon by professional writers. It's where the term "Mary Sue" originates and it's a sign of weakness and unprofessionalism to inject oneself into a story this way. People do it but relatively rarely and the ones who do are clowned mercilessly by the rest of us.

How you feel, think and believe about yourself reflects in your project even if you are not the original creator of said character!

Also, untrue. For example, Chuck Dixon, one of the best writers in comics' history, never ever injected his political, religious or other personal views into his comic book work. He did the job every professional does– looks at what's been established, compares it with the story he'd like to tell with these particular characters and does his best to be true to the characters as he writes.

Chuck's politics are EXTREMELY right wing. Extremely. But you can't tell that from his comics work.

Again, lots of writers in comics will use their yarns to express political or social viewpoints as if speaking from a soapbox on a corner but, generally, those stories fall apart and fail to satisfy the reader. There are always exceptions.

The problem with a lot of black men in general is that deep down we don't see ourselves as the ultimate hero therefore there is a lag in development rarely seen in white male oriented characters!

Possible. But it's not something I've noticed in the black creators I've worked with or know personally. But I suppose it's possible for some. I definitely don't have that problem.

The average white fanboy really lives vicariously through Batman, James Bond or Spiderman and will actively cosplay as their favorite character as a child with cape/towel tied around their neck or as a young adult dressed for Comic-con!

yep. #facts.

When black creators are charged with depicting a valiant black male super hero there can be a slight apprehension that can often self sabotage the vision before it even gets started!

From a lot of the white fans? yep. Common. depressing. stupid as ****. Those fans are all racists. Even the black ones. They suffer from self-hatred and it's very sad.

Also... Black men rather than leave the excess baggage of life at the door will drag it into the "Escapism" experience and ruin the high of the fantasy part!

again. Some may do this. Not me. No one in my circle seems to. But I suppose there are those who would have this problem.

AND... Where as white male counterparts do not hesitate going all in sometimes black males are quietly waiting for the BOOM to be lowered on them expecting the white man to dethrone or derail it before it has a chance to thrive!

That I truly don't know. I've never suffered from this sense of basic inadequacy or felt that people were out to squash me before I got going.

Basically in theory many black men are too afraid to cosplay as white men and even Asians (anime) do as an afterthought... Brothas be too COOL to don the spandex let alone spend hours making a suit of armor for comic convention photo ops!

LOL. Probably true. But that's about other black people, not about fear of whites or the establishment or whatever. We're pretty cruel when somebody steps out too far in certain areas.

Hence the reason why "Black Comic Books Don't Sell" because the salesman doesn't believe in the actual product itself so the potential fanbase responds accordingly!

the other part is black people don't support them. black comic book fans- in particular, snub the hell out of new black heroes whether they be from the Big Two or from indy world. I've been listening to and watching the results of this from too many black creators for too many years. And it's sick. Anything black people like en masse is an automatic hit. so the same people whining all the time about how superman could be black, won't spend a dime on Icon until the white comics press (meaning white fan boys) decide Icon is cool for them.

The exception was the MCU Black Panther which by default was going to be successful because the prior investment had been made leading all the way to Thanos stamping his passport in Wakanda!

nope. BP's film was announced late - meaning it wasn't seriously on the books at first- then delayed when Marvel thought they might really get Spider-man back. prior to its release, Marvel had NO IDEA how big the movie was going to be and behaved as if it was going to do solid-but-not-stellar numbers on its release. It's my suspicion that it wasn't until BP actually showed up in CIVIL WAR and got a huge fan response (from whites as well as blacks) that they were even solid on making the solo movie at all.

Unlike Blade which stood on it's own MCU Black Panther did have it's hand held by previous MCU installments establishing a pattern of ticket sales that assisted it to record breaking heights and beyond!

fans say this a lot. that's not how it works. If BP had been ****, it would have tanked. There's no such thing as a movie handholding another movie. Not BP, not Captain Marvel, not Ant-Man, etc. every movie rises or falls on its own merits and the changing taste of a fickle public.

The late great Stan Lee called us "True Believers" and it's way past time black males be counted whether inside or outside of the Marvel Universe as legitimate creators with no excuses for success or failure!

Yep. Long past time.

I've watched too many excellent creators bankrupt themselves and break their hearts thinking black fans were going to flock to their work if only they could get it to market. nearly 100% of the time the fans have disappointed them with crushing force. these are some of the bravest, most optimistic, talented people I've ever met and they are almost always crushed when reality smacks them with the fact that black comic book fans either don't have the numbers to support them or- this is my feeling- suffer from a mild form of self-hate which prevents them from throwing their dollars at these projects.

[Vibranium Weave]

Also, untrue. For example, Chuck Dixon, one of the best writers in comics' history, never ever injected his political, religious or other personal views into his comic book work. He did the job every professional does– looks at what's been established, compares it with the story he's like to tell with these particular characters and does his best to be true to the characters as he writes.

Chuck's politics are EXTREMELY right wing. Extremely. But you can't tell that from his comics work.

I'm sorry, I have to disagree with this statement. Back in the day, I would read the Batman stories written by Dixon (including Robin & Nightwing) and I say he did a great job with the mythos. He helped make Batman the A list hero he is today. But as I read them now as I've gotten older you can see his political views. In " Road to No Man's Land", he has Bruce Wayne suggest to Washington to cut spending in social programs to help fund the building of Gotham. When " No Man's Land" actually happens, Batman says that the kind of people to stay behind in Gotham and let the Ventriloquist & Scarface lead them are welfare recipients because they don't have the ability to fend for themselves (I'm paraphrasing, please read it for yourself).

Also, I then noticed how all of the Black characters, besides Lucius Fox, were portrayed in Robin, which was interesting. After noticing these things, I googled to see his political leanings.

don't get me wrong, Chuck Dixon is a great writer. I would want him to write BP, but I don't like how he turned Gotham into a hel hole Lol. I don't want that to be Wakanda lol.

[Ezyo1000]

they lost to about 5 HZ until zenzi saved them lol

God this book has been a disaster for a long long long time.

This dumpster fire was brewing from the get go, Maj tried to warn us, some took heed faster then others (I am ashamed I even gave Coates a chance given what he had to say about T'Challa and Wakanda) but now it's simply counting down the days. But the book is underwhelming in every aspect. Static art looks pretty but scale and action scenes always have fallen short

[Redjack]

I'm sorry, I have to disagree with this statement. Back in the day, I would read the Batman stories written by Dixon (including Robin & Nightwing) and I say he did a great job with the mythos. He helped make Batman the A list hero he is today. But as I read them now as I've gotten older you can see his political views. In " Road to No Man's Land", he has Bruce Wayne suggest to Washington to cut spending in social programs to help fund the building of Gotham. When " No Man's Land" actually happens, Batman says that the kind of people to stay behind in Gotham and let the Ventriloquist & Scarface lead them are welfare recipients because they don't have the ability to fend for themselves (I'm paraphrasing, please read it for yourself).

Also, I then noticed how all of the Black characters, besides Lucius Fox, were portrayed in Robin, which was interesting. After noticing these things, I googled to see his political leanings.

don't get me wrong, Chuck Dixon is a great writer. I would want him to write BP, but I don't like how he turned Gotham into a hel hole Lol. I don't want that to be Wakanda lol.

i'll have to recheck. that's fair. i will say Chuck got worse as he discovered the internet. i can't take him at all now.

[Marvell2100]

Yep. Long past time.

I've watched too many excellent creators bankrupt themselves and break their hearts thinking black fans were going to flock to their work if only they could get it to market. nearly 100% of the time the fans have disappointed them with crushing force. these are some of the bravest, most optimistic, talented people I've ever met and they are almost always crushed when reality smacks them with the fact that black comic book fans either don't have the numbers to support them or- this is my feeling- suffer from a mild form of self-hate which prevents them from throwing their dollars at these projects.

I think a lot of this has to do with the material as well.

It's like those movie and TV shows like Empire or Power where we see male poc as gangsters and hoods even when they wear suits and ties. It's cool at first but when you start to see the copycat shows, you get a little tired of seeing the SOS.

You want to see something different and all you keep getting is the same flavor with a different name. Sort of like Tyler Perry movies. Some people like them and he has his fans but I can't watch them because they follow the same tropes.

What made me love Black Panther is that he wasn't this urban street hero, talking slang and jive while trying to get his hustle on. He was something different. A king of a powerful nation that kicked ass. We weren't getting that.

Even now, it's still the same thing. Black Lightning is one of the most powerful people on the planet yet he's fighting hoods and street gangs. Blue marvel, one of if not the most powerful hero in Marvel and can't get a recurring role in a book.

That's why when Lion's Forge introduced Noble, that wasn't the usual trope they run with powerful male poc. Dude was powerful, intelligent, married(strong marriage too) and kicking ass.

That's what we need more of imo.

[Vibranium Weave]

I think a lot of this has to do with the material as well.

It's like those movie and TV shows like Empire or Power where we see male poc as gangsters and hoods even when they wear suits and ties. It's cool at first but when you start to see the copycat shows, you get a little tired of seeing the SOS.

You want to see something different and all you keep getting is the same flavor with a different name. Sort of like Tyler Perry movies. Some people like them and he has his fans but I can't watch them because they follow the same tropes.

What made me love Black Panther is that he wasn't this urban street hero, talking slang and jive while trying to get his hustle on. He was something different. A king of a powerful nation that kicked ass. We weren't getting that.

Even now, it's still the same thing. Black Lightning is one of the most powerful people on the planet yet he's fighting hoods and street gangs. Blue marvel, one of if not the most powerful hero in Marvel and can't get a recurring role in a book.

That's why when Lion's Forge introduced Noble, that wasn't the usual trope they run with powerful male poc. Dude was powerful, intelligent, married(strong marriage too) and kicking ass.

That's what we need more of imo.

This is similar to the same reason I like Black Panther.

I don't mind the show Black Lightning. Being a street crime fighter is okay ( I used to really like Daredevil & Spiderman), but I noticed I have outgrown them in a sense. I think that's why my interest in T'Challa as the Warrior-King superhero is so great.

Priest, Hudlin, Narcisse, McDuffie, Kirby, Aaron, & Lee/Kirby have accurately portrayed this. Zub is getting there, so far.

Are there indie black characters close to characters like T'Challa and/or Tony Stark? Possibly Thor?

[XPac]

[/B]

You still have to prove that one way is more effective than the other.

For the bolded, it was a civil war they started. If it can even be called one. Only fight I remember was a squad of HZ attacking them. Tchalla said there were lives lost at some point, but thats' just more of Coates' poor story telling skills.

You don't need proof that is is better than the other ... you just need the understanding that people want a greater voice in government. Wakandans theoretically want the right to vote for the same reason you, I, and anyone else might. Its human nature.

As far as avoiding a Civil war... the Dora's rebelled to protect the midnight Angel's in the first place. Not giving them their freedom puts everyone back to square one. Tchalla can fight the Dora's and ultimately beat them ... but is it worth it? Freeing them turns potential opponents into potential allies without any additional loss of Wakandan life.

So while not letting the Dora's go at least from a legal perspective is more than fair, I'm just not sure it would do anyone any favors. Letting them have their independence gives everyone what they want without any additional blood shed.

[Cville]

You don't need proof that is is better than the other ... you just need the understanding that people want a greater voice in government. Wakandans theoretically want the right to vote for the same reason you, I, and anyone else might. Its human nature.

As far as avoiding a Civil war... the Dora's rebelled to protect the midnight Angel's in the first place. Not giving them their freedom puts everyone back to square one. Tchalla can fight the Dora's and ultimately beat them ... but is it worth it? Freeing them turns potential opponents into potential allies without any additional loss of Wakandan life.

So while not letting the Dora's go at least from a legal perspective is more than fair, I'm just not sure it would do anyone any favors. Letting them have their independence gives everyone what they want without any additional blood shed.

How do you know they didn't? I've seen examples of a villager appearing before Tchalla and their problem is investigated. If everyone can do that, wouldn't that be more efficient than voting? Like people say in America, local elections are more important than national ones. And they had the tribal council whom were selected from their villages. And that council could put the King/BP out of power if they thought something was wrong.

The Dora's weren't slaves. Who said they couldn't leave whenever they wanted?

[Cville]

Priest still makes the references. Lol. Deathstroke issue 36.

[Mr MajestiK]

How do you know they didn't? I've seen examples of a villager appearing before Tchalla and their problem is investigated. If everyone can do that, wouldn't that be more efficient than voting? Like people say in America, local elections are more important than national ones. And they had the tribal council whom were selected from their villages. And that council could put the King/BP out of power if they thought something was wrong.

The Dora's weren't slaves. Who said they couldn't leave whenever they wanted?

Remember what I said about some of the disingenuous arguments put forward by some.

This level of disinformation and outright distortion is oftentimes so innocuous that it gets missed for the most part but, at the end of the day, when it's pushed long enough, one gets to recognise the obvious patterns and rebut them accordingly.

As you rightly pointed out, prior to Ta Nehisi Coates arrival, no Dora ever saw themselves as slaves to T'Challa in particular or the Royal Family in general.

Prior to Coates distortions, there were ZERO hints of any Black Panther sexually exploiting any Dora Milaje or even making moves to marry a Dora but that didn't stop the likes of Chris Yost in particular and some X-Verse writers and their fans, casting aspersions on this aspect of the Black Panther Mythos.

To be quite blunt, practically all of the negative narrative that's been foisted upon the BP mythos during and in the immediate aftermath of Reginald Hudlin's BP run, has been for the most part, engineered by X-writers, past, present and wannabe future.

Ta Nehisi Coates is for all intents and purposes, a wannabe future X-writer as evidenced by his sustained assault on the BP mythos and use of this milieu to advance the forward trajectory of his favourite characters whilst nosediving T'Challa headfirst into a pit of thematic mediocrity.

I challenge anyone to counter my stance or at least, attempt to debate me on an equal footing in relation to the points I've put forth.

[FLEX HECTIC]

Writing 101 - Set Up and Payoff


If you read the book From Krakow to Krypton: Jews and Comic Books by Arie Kaplan whom I met (He's a friend of a friend) after a lecture he gave at the Skirball he goes into deep detail about the origins of the super hero genre!


Superman who puts the word "Super" in super heroes is a savior prototype with a Hebrew name (Kal el) who uses the name "Clark Kent" to hide his identity much in the same way many persecuted Jews used certain names to conceal their own heritage!


Stan Lee = Stanley Lieber

Jack Kirby = Jacob Kurtzberg

Clark Kent = Kal El


The reason why many super heroes wore masks in the early days was based on this reasoning thus a form of "Self Portrait" originated even if by default!


If you then study the behavioral patterns of both Stan Lee and Jack Kirby you can often tell the differences between their created or co-created characters!


Stan Lee is the engaging consummate people person while Jack Kirby is the more New York City rough and tough gritty character that only true gangster movie fans could appreciate!


Characters that they created separate from each other reveal this where as those that they collaborated on share both traits... Notice the humorous wit from Stan Lee's influence matched with the hardcore aggressiveness from Jack Kirby!


When these two combined they made a lovechild called Black Panther...


Since most black writers are not necessarily Jewish or a New York native for that matter there comes a dilemma about whether a mask concealing the identity of a black super hero has the same effect as it does for a Hebrew begotten writer's depiction!


Hint: Most black folks can't really hide their true identities because you lead with your face unless you are very light skinned and can pass for white as a white Jewish person may have!


If you compare today's industry writers to the past it does not even come close to that majesty so most will just borrow heavily from the previous era and try to add in their own "agenda" which sometimes creates a convoluted mess!


Get Woke Go Broke...


Yes, many professional writer's of today frown upon certain methods of writing but cannot hold a candle to yesteryear's giants whom they are eating off of and paying the rent from!


You will also notice a lack of original content worthy of what the G.O.A.T.'s (Greatest Of All Time) created versus the one and done producers that fall off the map every time a alleged blockbuster does not rise to meet expectations!


Terminator Dark Fate... Charlies Angels... etc. etc.


Right now the professional writers are sinking the comic book industry wholesale and basically struggling through reboots of old projects with no new original thoughts of their own because they really do not believe in the old school characters as they should!


Due to various agendas in Hollywood it seems more like creators want to make political statements that have very little to do with super heroes so they struggle soup their way through intellectual property forgetting the "Escapism" portion of why they were originally there in the first place!


And when they fail it's everybody else's fault for not supporting them rather than they not setting the dinner table properly so that generations after them can eat too!


Many black folks inject black militant ideology or black civil rights activism or the classic Tupac persona into their work and sometimes like Killmonger or Blade with the Shaft vibe it can work but mostly it falls short of the grand stage that the MCU has reached in box office value!


Black creators desperately need to find that "Self Portrait" that works well enough to sell on the open market and earn a pretty penny!


Stan Lee and Jack Kirby dead are speaking from the grave more powerfully than living creators frowning upon what built this industry for them to make a living!


If your "Self Portrait" oozes with a lack of self esteem or is influenced by an agenda that does the opposite of make money you need to borrow that Mirror Mirror On The Wall from Snow White or go see The Wizard of Oz for some heart!


Siegel and Shuster wept...


Dwayne McDuffie wiped their tears...


Wakanda Forever!

[Surf]

Many black folks inject black militant ideology or black civil rights activism or the classic Tupac persona into their work and sometimes like Killmonger or Blade with the Shaft vibe it can work but mostly it falls short of the grand stage that the MCU has reached in box office value!


Black creators desperately need to find that "Self Portrait" that works well enough to sell on the open market and earn a pretty penny!

That's the rub though ain't it? There isn't enough black skin in the game to begin with, so there's no time figure out the buttons on the controller while you work it. 4-5 doller books, 'Money Mouse' being the controlling arm over the movies... I don't see things changing.

Can go the other way too, I'm a Bronze Age guy, Jim Owsley back when kind leaned towards a bootstrap pull-up kinda guy in some of his early works. Not sayin the man hasn't changed or that he's full on FOX NEWS but he's always came across as adjacent on some level too me(speakin towards his Vampirella comments and an example).

I challenge anyone to counter my stance or at least, attempt to debate me on an equal footing in relation to the points I've put forth.

I agree 1000% but yet and still where does that leave you? I'd have DM'd you about this over yesterday's post but maybe a response will ring for someone else. What do you do when the new books are being written by a caricaturist of a writer, yet your favorite character is more popular than ever.
Again, I'm a Bronze guy and I've been off of new books in general for years. I can sustain reading older stories pre-Hudlin that I wasn't hip to at the time, and that goes for anybody that interests me, not just BP but he's in there too.

I imagine though Maj, you've read all there is back when, even if you haven't the sense of community for a 20+ year old book isn't out there the same as it is for what's on the shelves now. So how do you get that Panther fix?

[Mr MajestiK]

I think a lot of this has to do with the material as well.

It's like those movie and TV shows like Empire or Power where we see male poc as gangsters and hoods even when they wear suits and ties. It's cool at first but when you start to see the copycat shows, you get a little tired of seeing the SOS.

You want to see something different and all you keep getting is the same flavor with a different name. Sort of like Tyler Perry movies. Some people like them and he has his fans but I can't watch them because they follow the same tropes.

What made me love Black Panther is that he wasn't this urban street hero, talking slang and jive while trying to get his hustle on. He was something different. A king of a powerful nation that kicked ass. We weren't getting that.

Even now, it's still the same thing. Black Lightning is one of the most powerful people on the planet yet he's fighting hoods and street gangs. Blue marvel, one of if not the most powerful hero in Marvel and can't get a recurring role in a book.

That's why when Lion's Forge introduced Noble, that wasn't the usual trope they run with powerful male poc. Dude was powerful, intelligent, married(strong marriage too) and kicking ass.

That's what we need more of imo.

Well said my friend.

[KingNomarch]

Saw some people speculating that BP/Wakanda getting references or a BP character cameoing in The Falcon & The Winter Soldier series. They based it on a post that Sebastian Stan put on his IG story that looked like an abandoned warehouse wall with the name White Wolf on it. I guess Bucky would be officially going by that codename now instead of the Winter Soldier?

I know Feige said that the Disney+ shows are going to connect to the movies, like WandaVision with DS 2 and possibly CM 2, but I'm not expecting any BP character to show up in the series, if they do it'd be a welcome surprise. Since Bucky lived in Wakanda for like a year or something I wouldn't be surprised if Wakanda or T'Challa and Shuri gets mentioned once or twice. Seb said we'd get to see what his new arm can do so it should be easy to name drop Shuri, I dont think she'd just give him an arm that does nothing especially after joking about how outdated the CW suit's tech was.

If by some chance this series does connect to BP 2, cool. If it doesn't, cool, that'd just mean Ryan doesn't have to worry about any connections or setup from an outside project.