Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[Ezyo1000]

I think there are plenty of people who would disagree with you over the idea that it's not a famiy members place to stop a family member from throwing their life away. People do all the time. I'd argue it's a family memebers obligation to try and save them if they can.

And we'll have to agree to disagree about the importance of Shuri vs the importance of the rape victims in the tree house. Again, don't want to go too hard on them because I felt bad for them in the tree house scene but ultimately SHuri actualy matters... the people in the tree house scene do not. In fact I'd say that Shuri is the single most important person in the franchise short of T'Challa himself. I don't think there's even a close second.

He did try to save her, he didn't have time to have a full debate.


Also way to skirt my question, so again, given my post, is the scenes from Coates I posted the same or worse character assassination then what Hickman showed?

[Ezyo1000]

I'm pretty sure we ALL are asking that question. But it's all "Punisher! Just as bad!".

it's funny how much defense there is while willfully ignoring all the facts and context isn't it?

[XPac]

He did try to save her, he didn't have time to have a full debate.


Also way to skirt my question, so again, given my post, is the scenes from Coates I posted the same or worse character assassination then what Hickman showed?

Offering to stay with Shuri isn't the same thing as saving her.

As far as character assassination goes ... Coates created all the character in the tree house rape scene. For everyone except the MA it was their first scene. By definition I don't think character assasination can really apply there since their character was never established prior to that scene.

I don't think eirher scene qualifies as character assassination. As far as characterization goes, everyone seems fine.

[XPac]

it's funny how much defense there is while willfully ignoring all the facts and context isn't it?

Not to be overly critical of other posters here, but I think in this particular conversation I was the only one who wasn't ignoring the facts and context.

We had 2 seperate posters arguing why 2 agents of government would act the way they did during the tree house rape, while ignoring the fact that they weren't agents of government at the point in the story. Them being fugitives for murder rather agents of government drastically changes how one might act in that scene. It's important context which was left out.

[skyvolt2000]

And if for arguments sake, no such evidence is presented herein, anyone currently posting in this thread, is more than welcome to explain why Wakanda is the only fictional locales that fell into such a chaotic state that Wakandan rape camps were seen as being an acceptable thing to explore within what used to be, one of the more progressive titles being published by Marvel.

Lets not forget Symkaria-home of Silver Sable & Transia (birth place of Scarlet Witch).

Oh there is one MAJOR difference between all of them versus what we have seen in Black Panther.

Black Bolt, Namor, Thor, Hercules, Valkyrie, Lady Sif, Loki, Scarlet Witch, Magneto, Silver Sable and Doom would make it THEIR business to wipe out that rape camp PERSONALLY.

Funny Wakanda is the ONLY place.

Now the only thing we can say it-maybe those stories were never green lighted.

[XPac]

Lets not forget Symkaria-home of Silver Sable & Transia (birth place of Scarlet Witch).

Oh there is one MAJOR difference between all of them versus what we have seen in Black Panther.

Black Bolt, Namor, Thor, Hercules, Valkyrie, Lady Sif, Loki, Scarlet Witch, Magneto, Silver Sable and Doom would make it THEIR business to wipe out that rape camp PERSONALLY.

Funny Wakanda is the ONLY place.

Now the only thing we can say it-maybe those stories were never green lighted.

I actually think if you had a rape camp in any of those other stories there's a high chance you would have a female character wiping out the rape camp over a male one, even if he's the lead.

Not that gender should matter... but I do think there's a sense of female empowerment or whatever if a female character stops a male villain from victimizing women rather than having another male character do it. It's a sort of thing where women are standing up for themselves rather than having a male character do it. Not that I personally feel it should matter ... but I think there's a pretty descent chance it would go down that way in the current enviroment.

So if it took place in a Silver Sable or Valkyrie book yes I think they would handle it. BUt if it took place say in a Thor or a Black Bolt book, I think they'd probably leave it to Sif or Medusa. Just my guess though.

[Ezyo1000]

Offering to stay with Shuri isn't the same thing as saving her.

As far as character assassination goes ... Coates created all the character in the tree house rape scene. For everyone except the MA it was their first scene. By definition I don't think character assasination can really apply there since their character was never established prior to that scene.

I don't think eirher scene qualifies as character assassination. As far as characterization goes, everyone seems fine.

First off you know i was speaking specifically about Shuri so why are you pretending I was asking about character assassination for pet Characters Coates created who have zero depth?

Also, it's funny how your day Hickman assassinates Shuris character for willingly staying to die with her people (her own choice of her freewill) yet you find it perfectly within character for her to tell her people they should of accepted their fate to be raped and killed (unwilling no choice for them,) in Coates series. You also stated she should of lived because her people were still alive (some) but it's okay for her to tell living Wakandans they should of died?

The irony and hypocrisy is blinding.

[XPac]

First off you know i was speaking specifically about Shuri so why are you pretending I was asking about character assassination for pet Characters Coates created who have zero depth?

Also, it's funny how your day Hickman assassinates Shuris character for willingly staying to die with her people (her own choice of her freewill) yet you find it perfectly within character for her to tell her people they should of accepted their fate to be raped and killed (unwilling no choice for them,) in Coates series. You also stated she should of lived because her people were still alive (some) but it's okay for her to tell living Wakandans they should of died?

The irony and hypocrisy is blinding.

My bad, I thought we were still talking about the tree house rape scene.

THe fact that Shuri supports Wakandans willing to die does show consistency there. So Coates retroactively does make Hickman scene more in character. Obviousy at the time Hickman wrote the scene Coates scene didn't exist, so it couldn't support Hickmans. But after the fact it does. So I guess that helps Hickmans scene a little.

That said I still would argue it's more in character for Shuri to try and protect the remaining living Wakandans rather than abandom them to die with the Wakandans who have already died. That doesn't make sense. The dead Wakandans don't need help... the living ones do. No one benefits from Shuri dying. So we'll have to agree to disagree over Shuri doing more for Wakanda dead than alive I guess.

And certainly she does more for the mythos as a whole alive. Again, she's the most valuable character in the franchise short of T'Challa himself. So her dying frankly matter more, both to me personally as a fan and the mythos as a whole. Certainly moreso than the women in the tree house.

[Cville]

The MA did not have to kill those men, they could have just turned them over, whether you consider them criminals or not. Just like how you keep saying that it was stupid for Shuri to stay behind in TRO, others are saying the actions of the MA were stupid. They didn't have to kill those men to stop the rapes.

That is the poor writing by Coates that so many point out yet you keep defending.

I don't mind killing rapist, but the body they deserved to be arrested for is M'Bakus' cousin. I don't remember them presenting any evidence of wrong doing besides him defending his lands.

[skyvolt2000]

partial list.

BLACKJACK - Alex Simmons & Various
CONCRETE PARK - Erika Alexander & Tony Puryear
GENIUS - Marc Bernardin & various
BLACK - Roye Okupe & Various
MIRANDA MERCURY - Brandon Thomas & Various
MOLLY DANGER -Jamal Igle
EXCELLENCE - Brandon Thomas, Khary Randolph & Emilio Lopez
MALIKA - Roye Okupe & various
DESTROYER - Victor LaValle & Dietrich Smith
NIOBE, SHE IS LIFE - Sebastian A Jones, Amandla Stenberg & Ashley A Woods
VINDICATORS (and lots of others) - Kevin Grevioux & Various
STORMBRINGERS - Korby Marks & various
VESCELL - Enrique Carrion & John Upchurch
BITTER ROOT - David Walker, Chuck Brown & Sanford Green
HORSEMEN- Jiba Molei Anderson

Own the ones in bold.

Molly, Destroyer & Miranda are at my city library.

[XPac]

I don't mind killing rapist, but the body they deserved to be arrested for is M'Bakus' cousin. I don't remember them presenting any evidence of wrong doing besides him defending his lands.

The woman the MA were helping claimed they were being attacked. But in theory that woman could be lying, or she could be wrong.. it's why we have proper due process to at least try and better sort this sort of thing out. Obviosly the MA completely disregard that and administer what they feel is vigilantee justice without juries or courts. And by the letter of the law, that's obviously an arrestable offense.

That said I'm better T'Challa was fine letting that slide. The Doras taking over the Jabari lands means a village which was at times his enemy overtime became allies. Fair or not (and it wasn't) for T'Challa that probably worked out for the best.

[Cville]

The woman the MA were helping claimed they were being attacked. But in theory that woman could be lying, or she could be wrong.. it's why we have proper due process to at least try and better sort this sort of thing out. Obviosly the MA completely disregard that and administer what they feel is vigilantee justice without juries or courts. And by the letter of the law, that's obviously an arrestable offense.

That said I'm better T'Challa was fine letting that slide. The Doras taking over the Jabari lands means a village which was at times his enemy overtime became allies. Fair or not (and it wasn't) for T'Challa that probably worked out for the best.

M'Baku was an enemy. Nothing was presented that the Jabari lands went currently a problem. M'baku got an invite to the wedding. He didn't seem to be a problem.

[Cville]

This may be where we're headed. Lol.

[Ezyo1000]

My bad, I thought we were still talking about the tree house rape scene.

THe fact that Shuri supports Wakandans willing to die does show consistency there. So Coates retroactively does make Hickman scene more in character. Obviousy at the time Hickman wrote the scene Coates scene didn't exist, so it couldn't support Hickmans. But after the fact it does. So I guess that helps Hickmans scene a little.

That said I still would argue it's more in character for Shuri to try and protect the remaining living Wakandans rather than abandom them to die with the Wakandans who have already died. That doesn't make sense. The dead Wakandans don't need help... the living ones do. No one benefits from Shuri dying. So we'll have to agree to disagree over Shuri doing more for Wakanda dead than alive I guess.

And certainly she does more for the mythos as a whole alive. Again, she's the most valuable character in the franchise short of T'Challa himself. So her dying frankly matter more, both to me personally as a fan and the mythos as a whole. Certainly moreso than the women in the tree house.

What.. what in bast name are you talking about? Coates doesn't show Shuri Supporting Wakandans willing to die. He shows Shuri telling rape victims they should of been left to be raped and killed and accepted that fate, a fate that they had no choice in. Shuri chose to stay and fight proxima, those victim's didn't want to be there. So where are you getting this notion that those two scenes (Hickmans and Coates) are the same.

You keep saying Shuri dying means alot more then random Wakandans dying, but that was never even the topic or what I even said. I very specifically asked of those two scenes, tro and Coates issue 12 scenes were equal in character assassination for Shuri in regards to how she comes off and her attitude (to T'Challa in Hickmans, and the rape victims in Coates).. I can't make it anymore clear yet you keep going off on a tangent about Shuri dying or being alive

[Ezyo1000]

This may be where we're headed. Lol.

Looks like it, with a certain weather witch turned goddess as their new patheon