Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[Ezyo1000]

From a purely character assasination stand point, Coates retroctively makes Hickmans scene less bad because theres established consistency to a degree.

But in the context of Shuri basically abandoning the remaining Wakandans the Hickman scene is still worse. While dying for Wakanda may be acceptable to Shuri, living to aid them in their time of need should still be the priority.

Except it doesn't. Choosing to have a warriors death willingly and being kidnapped, raped, and killed against your will are not the same thing. I'm surprised This is even a thing I have to explain.

Your also saying that Shuri Essentially telling the MA to abandon the living Wakandans in the treehouses in their time of need is okay, yet her dying in combat and abandoning the remaining Wakandans in tro isn't and is worse...

The irony is strong with this one

[Ezyo1000]

Not the same situation for Shuri. She could have easily just teleported away with T"Challa rather than stay and fight.

Let me flip the question and ask why it's better that Shuri stayed and died? Who does Shuri dying benefit exactly? Is T'Challa better off with her dying there rather than simply returning with her? Are the remaining Wakandans better off with Shuri dead than alive? Why exactly doe Shuri staying to die somehow make more sense than leaving to help T'Challa and Wakanda in the rest of the story?

It didn't matter because the remaining Wakandans died with the rest of the 616. Only a handful of people survived
So In The end, it didn't matter either way. Shuri just chose to go out on a swinging rather then waiting for the world to explode

[XPac]

It didn't matter because the remaining Wakandans died with the rest of the 616. Only a handful of people survived
So In The end, it didn't matter either way. Shuri just chose to go out on a swinging rather then waiting for the world to explode

Yes, the remaining Wakandans died too but Shuri didn't know that would happen at the time. There were stil 2000 left, and for Shuri to assume they just don't matter I think is uncharacteristic of her. As long as they are still breathing, they SHOULD matter.

Even if she fails to protect the remaining Wakandans I would expect her to at least TRY like T'Challa did.

[XPac]

Except it doesn't. Choosing to have a warriors death willingly and being kidnapped, raped, and killed against your will are not the same thing. I'm surprised This is even a thing I have to explain.

Your also saying that Shuri Essentially telling the MA to abandon the living Wakandans in the treehouses in their time of need is okay, yet her dying in combat and abandoning the remaining Wakandans in tro isn't and is worse...

The irony is strong with this one

I'm not saying either scene is OKAY but yeah ... the Shuri scene in TRO was much worse. Shuri didn't actually just talk about death in TRO... she actually DIES. And as I've said a couple times, to me at least Shuri dying is probably worse than anything short of T'Challa dying. Given the choice, I'd rather have a scene with Shuri telling other people it's okay for Wakanda to die than have a scene where Shuri actually dies. That's much much worse.

[Redjack]

I'm not saying either scene is OKAY but yeah ... the Shuri scene in TRO was much worse. Shuri didn't actually just talk about death in TRO... she actually DIES. And as I've said a couple times, to me at least Shuri dying is probably worse than anything short of T'Challa dying. Given the choice, I'd rather have a scene with Shuri telling other people it's okay for Wakanda to die than have a scene where Shuri actually dies. That's much much worse.

Mainstream super-hero comics are meant to be ASPIRATIONAL.

You don't kill Dick Grayson. You don't kill Shuri. The end.

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.

[XPac]

Mainstream super-hero comics are meant to be ASPIRATIONAL.

You don't kill Dick Grayson. You don't kill Shuri. The end.

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.

As much as I liked Hickmans Avengers run (and for the record yes I am a fan of Hickman and Time Runs Out despite my criticism of the Shuri scene in case anyone is wondering), it was sort of lacking in the aspiratinal department for a good chunk of that run.

[Ezyo1000]

I'm not saying either scene is OKAY but yeah ... the Shuri scene in TRO was much worse. Shuri didn't actually just talk about death in TRO... she actually DIES. And as I've said a couple times, to me at least Shuri dying is probably worse than anything short of T'Challa dying. Given the choice, I'd rather have a scene with Shuri telling other people it's okay for Wakanda to die than have a scene where Shuri actually dies. That's much much worse.

Steve died Tony died, widow died, Thor, Hyperion, everyone died. What was expected was for everyone to come back and that's what happened, except for Shuri in a nonsensical side plot that didn't make sense.

There is no scene of Shuri telling anyone it's okay for Wakanda die she was saying they should of died and been raped etc so Wakanda could go on.

[XPac]

Steve died Tony died, widow died, Thor, Hyperion, everyone died. What was expected was for everyone to come back and that's what happened, except for Shuri in a nonsensical side plot that didn't make sense.

There is no scene of Shuri telling anyone it's okay for Wakanda die she was saying they should of died and been raped etc so Wakanda could go on.

But I mean it's clear that Coates in your eyes does no wrong and just ignore subtext and what this all means

Honestly I felt the scene where Tony and Steve died was all sorts of messed up too. Horrible way to show the characters and end his Avengers run. Thor and Hyperion made a bit more sense to me, so I was actually okay with that.

And again, it's not that Coates can do no wrong... but I was specifically asked what scenes I felt were unjustifiable. And that was my answer. I can give a LOT of things a LOT of slack... this was one of the very few which I can't. Killing Shuri is the worst thing you can do, short of killing T'Challa... anything else is a distant second. In my opinion of course.

[butterflykyss]

You got it twisted. First off, us BP posters are not biased. Doesn't matter who you are, you get credit where credit is due, and if you write something that deserves criticism you get it. Priest, Hudlin, liss, etc. All of them are not above criticism even writing the greatest BP stories they still get criticism for the stuff that didn't land right.

Also the scenes X-Pac is talking about here's the deal. In tro Shuri decides not to go with T'Challa and stays behind to fight and die with her people, why? Because she is a warrior from a warrior nation and she was Queen and failed to save her people so she chose to stay and fight proxima midnight, knowing full well she was going to die.

Hudlins deal with morlun killing Wakandan characters. That sucked yes, I hate that T'Challa doesn't have any friends alive, his male friends. But o would sacrifice them a thousand times if it meant we could erase the last nearly 4 years of Coates. Coates Series is worse then anything any other writer has done. Way worse then even when Mayberry had Doom kick T'Challas ass, leaving him broken at his feet, then he had T'Challa THANK Doom for "teaching him and Wakanda a lesson" before he destroys all the vibranium in the world "defeating" Doom (just so you know for context, thousands of Wakandans died In This story including T'Challas uncle S'yan and all Doom "lost" was money) in the most ridiculously stupid pyrrhic victory in BP history. Coates has topped all the worst writer's of BP in history

when did I say BP posters are biased?

everything else here confirms what xpac said originally was correct so I'm not seeing the issue.

And as I said previously, feel free to support or endorse whomsoever you choose to as that's your prerogative.

I very much doubt that any of the actual BP enthusiasts who've been posting in this thread for years, do so in the hope of being clapped on the back and applauded.

Most of us are here ostensibly for the Appreciation of the Black Panther character and the unique mythos that serves as its foundation.

Were not here to sit idly by whilst the likes of Coates writes the BP solo into the ground and were definitely not here to be le turned to by anyone who would be crying foul if their favourite character was being written out of character as you have been known to do frequently and with good cause over in the Storm Appreciation thread.

No person truly knowledgeable about the BP mythos would countenance, let alone, make crass justifications for what Coates has done to T'Challa and his saga, unless they themselves, were of the mindset that said mythos needed to be brought down a peg or two, to be in alignment with their personal inability to accept the idea of an Afrofuturistic Nation that developed independently of the rest of the world.

Because let's be very clear here, that's what it boils down to after alls been said and done.

Coates treatment of T'Challa and Wakanda, stems from his wilful inability to accept the concept of an Afrofuturistic monarchy that existed long before he came onboard with his slavery and rape camp infested mentality.

That has been the crux of his ongoing blitzkrieg upon the BP mythos.

But you'd have to be intimately familiar and appreciative of the BP mythos to understand this.

As for my reference to Storm now being numbered amongst the ranks of Mutant supremacists, X-Men/FF #1, where she went on a rant towards Johnny Storm that Franklin Richard's status as a mutant, granted him "diplomatic immunity" firmly established her as being a supremacist alongside the rest of the mutants resident within Krakoa.

Diplomatic immunity from what exactly?

His actual parents, Reed and Sue Richards, who were dismissively referred o as being "human" as if that's a bad thing.

I did something I swore I'd never do, and went ahead and purchased the aforementioned X-Men/FF #1, via Kindle, and read it for myself as opposed to relying 9n other peoples opinions and second hand information which is where you and I differ in our respective approaches to research and due diligence.

Storm comes up as a subject of discussion within this thread due to Coates insistence on using her within the current BP solo in a manner that is neither recognised or referenced within any of the X-verse books to date.

An insistence I might add, that you've been more than willing to eagerly celebrate with much effusive fervour.

So yeah, questioning your rather fluid mode of criticism dependant on which characters thread you happen to be commenting within, is more than valid and relevant to this discussion.

Your quite justifiable criticism of Storm's mischaracterization in the X-verse remains valid, which makes it all the more incongruous that that you pop into the BP thread occasionally to question BP enthusiasts for calling out Coates mischaracterization of T'Challa and his bastardised take on Wakanda.

But hey, what do I know?

I've just been an actual Black Panther enthusiast from pong before comicbook discussion forums and I'll informed opinions, were a thing.

To your point about Coates writing the frachinse to the ground how can that be true when Hickman wrote wrote the complete destruction of wakanda by the villains of the black order? How is he writing the franchise to the ground when mayberry did away with one of the main things wakandan is know for, which is vibranium? How is what coates doing worse than mayberry writing tchalla chomped out by doom? I've never said that fans can criticize but this whole conversation has hinged around the notion that there are other writers who have done worse things for the franchise. Your criticism of coates tearing down the monarch is fair but I disagree as even in his writing the people still look to tchalla as their king. And he , to a degree, still operates as such.

Again, if you're concluding that ororo is a mutant supremacist based upon this crossover alone while ignoring mauraders, dox,/hox then the you are doing very thing you're charging of myself. I will say I thought her perspective in the regards was OOC but usually these stories to create conflict between heroes are. See AvX for proof of this.

To discussion of storm here my comments have been limited based upon a moderator asking that she not be discussed in the previous version of this thread. if you take note to my discussion that led to our exchange it centered around coates and wakanda. there was no mention of storm.

again I never said you couldnt criticize Coates. I mentioned its interesting considering what xpac mentioned other writers have done you dont see the same level of vitriol that coates see and I think that is a very valid point.

And XPac isn't the only BP reader with knowledge. You just choose to ignore everyone else's valid criticisms.

But yet in the Storm thread, your criticism of any writer who doesn't write Storm in the manner you prefer is apparently justified.

That is hypocrisy.

when I did I say he was the only knowledgeable BP fan? what did xpac say in his post that I responded to that was incorrect? about the killing off of main bp characters? about the underage sex of ororo when tchalla was a teenager?

to be hypocritical would be if I came here and said you guys shouldnt criticize coates . I've never said that you cant or shouldnt. what I did say is that I find it odd or interesting when you have writers who literally destroyed all of wakanda and others who did away with vibranium making it inert while also being conquered by another nation for the first time that anything coates has done would be tantamount to this.

also interesting to see you didnt have anything to say about Hickman or mayberry, nor did you answer my question about anything xpac said was non factual.

[butterflykyss]

As you've astutely pointed out, there is absolutely no BP writer who's work has got been fairly critiqued by posters in this thread.

We dont care who you are, if your work is good, we praise you for it.

If on the otherhand the work you put forth is substandard and derogatory to the mythos, you will get called out for it and criticised accordingly.

Simple.

my initial point about there never being posts criticizing other write was incorrect. I should have said the criticism towards coates appears to be more frequent than other writers who has come across as doing worse things for the franchise. but dont let the semantics derail you from the overall point that there is arguably worse things done to the franchise yet the level of criticism those writers did doesnt rise to the level that coates receive. it's not one day I've visited here and havent seen someone criticize coates for storm or something else. not saying you cant criticize but simply stating the facts in that regard.

It's the wilfully oblivious nature of the hypocrisy, that I find all the more baffling to be frank.

Imagine the consternation that would have ensued if T'Challa had been written taking over the X-Men as their leader, and near deified as their lord and saviour with all mutants praying to T'Challa for their salvation?

Some of the same cats hailing Coates for doing this with Storm in the BP solo, would be the first to scream blue murder.

there have been more egregious acts that have occurred to who leads the xmen so I'm not sure this is a good example.

Okay I'm only going to address the first part of your post, about BP and us enthusiast criticizing writers. You say you agree with X-Pac because he is knowledgeable..
95% of the people posting in this thread are just as knowledgeable and some are even more knowledgeable then he is. His claim to Hickman being worse then Coates with that scene about Shuri dying and T'Challa being cool with it. Here is the scene for context:



What follows that panel is Shuri telling T'Challa she will miss him and him responding that he will see her soon. Hardly him being"cool" with her dying. And you claim this is worse then this:






That's how Jonathan Hickman ended his arc with T'Challa and coates scene takes place 8 months later.

So yeah Coates has done more damage. As for Mayberry? Everyone in here has unanimously agreed that (prior to Coates) he is the worst BP writer and Doom war was astronomically stupid. However, your assumption that under Coates pen that T'Challa didn't know he was dealing with dictators is false and shows a lack of knowledge about his run as in that issue T'Challa is having a internal conversation in which he is saying he knows they are all known despots, yet met with them just to see what they would say and when the *gasp* betrayal happens, even casuals reading the book went "WTF that was obviously a set up".

Doom war was stupid and damaging. And Hickmans saving grace to T'Challa abd Wakanda happened in the scene that I posted above. Coates though has: introduced rape, misogyny, gender inequality, and an uncaring government into Wakanda in S1, all of that stuff goes against established continuity especially the gender inequality because the mythos has been very much supporting and putting women in roles of authority.

S2 he introduced Wakanda being a Columbus analogue, and completely contradicting the entire reason for why Lee and Kirby created Wakanda (he also did this in S1 but he just kept on compiling onto it here) by making them into colonizers and driving the denizens out in chains, and changed the Wakandan gods so he could power up Storm and simultaneously throw T'Challa and Wakanda under the bus to do so.

S3 he takes it to another level by making intergalactic Wakanda literally America except 5x worse in regards to slavery. He claims that Wakandans if given the chance would essentially become colonizers (even though they could of done that in the 616 if they really wanted to but chose not to) and makes this season an allegory of the slave trade.

All this is infinitely more damaging then anything the others have done because he imposed isht into the mythos that completely goes against continuity because (in a recent interview) he confirms he thinks it's his role to tell slave stories so now Wakanda is shackled with isht that BP and his world was created to combat and go against in the first place

No I didnt say I agree because he is knowledgeable. Xpac laid out several examples of what he believed to be far worse than what has happened in coates book. Those things he described I found to be far worse and I dont contest what he said because hes knowledgable. I never once said other BP fans are not knowledgeable in comparison to anyone else. So again I ask you was anything he stated he believed to be worse incorrect? did it not occur in 616?


Your scan also makes my point for me. hickman reduced wakanda to nothing but rubble and ash. He obliterated it to nothing. How is anything coates has done on that level? Even if you dont like the democracy or the dissolution of the dora wakanda still exists. it still thrives. under Hickman wakanda was nothing my friend.


to your examples give made if you hhinknthose things are worse considering all that has happened before in the modern era than I cant argue with you but based upon what I've read starting at the marriage to now I think Hickman and mayberry did far more damage anything coates has done even considering the points you've made .

[Ezyo1000]

when did I say BP posters are biased?

everything else here confirms what xpac said originally was correct so I'm not seeing the issue.



To your point about Coates writing the frachinse to the ground how can that be true when Hickman wrote wrote the complete destruction of wakanda by the villains of the black order? How is he writing the franchise to the ground when mayberry did away with one of the main things wakandan is know for, which is vibranium? How is what coates doing worse than mayberry writing tchalla chomped out by doom? I've never said that fans can criticize but this whole conversation has hinged around the notion that there are other writers who have done worse things for the franchise. Your criticism of coates tearing down the monarch is fair but I disagree as even in his writing the people still look to tchalla as their king. And he , to a degree, still operates as such.

Again, if you're concluding that ororo is a mutant supremacist based upon this crossover alone while ignoring mauraders, dox,/hox then the you are doing very thing you're charging of myself. I will say I thought her perspective in the regards was OOC but usually these stories to create conflict between heroes are. See AvX for proof of this.

To discussion of storm here my comments have been limited based upon a moderator asking that she not be discussed in the previous version of this thread. if you take note to my discussion that led to our exchange it centered around coates and wakanda. there was no mention of storm.

again I never said you couldnt criticize Coates. I mentioned its interesting considering what xpac mentioned other writers have done you dont see the same level of vitriol that coates see and I think that is a very valid point.




when I did I say he was the only knowledgeable BP fan? what did xpac say in his post that I responded to that was incorrect? about the killing off of main bp characters? about the underage sex of ororo when tchalla was a teenager?

to be hypocritical would be if I came here and said you guys shouldnt criticize coates . I've never said that you cant or shouldnt. what I did say is that I find it odd or interesting when you have writers who literally destroyed all of wakanda and others who did away with vibranium making it inert while also being conquered by another nation for the first time that anything coates has done would be tantamount to this.

also interesting to see you didnt have anything to say about Hickman or mayberry, nor did you answer my question about anything xpac said was non factual.

I was making a statement, not an accusation. Us BP fans aren't biased when it comes to writers. The rest of what I said actually doesn't confirm it but whatever, I don't care anymore

[Ezyo1000]

my initial point about there never being posts criticizing other write was incorrect. I should have said the criticism towards coates appears to be more frequent than other writers who has come across as doing worse things for the franchise. but dont let the semantics derail you from the overall point that there is arguably worse things done to the franchise yet the level of criticism those writers did doesnt rise to the level that coates receive. it's not one day I've visited here and havent seen someone criticize coates for storm or something else. not saying you cant criticize but simply stating the facts in that regard.



there have been more egregious acts that have occurred to who leads the xmen so I'm not sure this is a good example.



No I didnt say I agree because he is knowledgeable. Xpac laid out several examples of what he believed to be far worse than what has happened in coates book. Those things he described I found to be far worse and I dont contest what he said because hes knowledgable. I never once said other BP fans are not knowledgeable in comparison to anyone else. So again I ask you was anything he stated he believed to be worse incorrect? did it not occur in 616?


Your scan also makes my point for me. hickman reduced wakanda to nothing but rubble and ash. He obliterated it to nothing. How is anything coates has done on that level? Even if you dont like the democracy or the dissolution of the dora wakanda still exists. it still thrives. under Hickman wakanda was nothing my friend.


to your examples give made if you hhinknthose things are worse considering all that has happened before in the modern era than I cant argue with you but based upon what I've read starting at the marriage to now I think Hickman and mayberry did far more damage anything coates has done even considering the points you've made .

the last scan is the end of Hickmans run Wakanda reached for the Stars, the second scan is the beginning of Coates run, Wakanda in shambles. Hickman returned them to status quo, Coates continues to drag the mythos down. I literally laid it out the issues of Coates and they are worse because it's the solo and it's actually retconning the mythos. That's why it's worse. I'm not explaining it again

[XPac]

the last scan is the end of Hickmans run Wakanda reached for the Stars, the second scan is the beginning of Coates run, Wakanda in shambles. Hickman returned them to status quo, Coates continues to drag the mythos down. I literally laid it out the issues of Coates and they are worse because it's the solo and it's actually retconning the mythos. That's why it's worse. I'm not explaining it again

The problem with Hickmans story is that it returned Wakanda to status quo BEFORE the Incursions occured. Once marvel editorial decided that the incursions happened despite T'Challa going back in time, Hickmans ending doesn't change very much. He may have intended to magically reverse everything but by having T'CHalla travel back in time rather than simply restore things and returning to prior to the first incursion, he ended up negating any reversal he may or may not have intended.

Truthfully I'm still not sure why he decided to travel back in time. It was a nice scene, but it was almost begging writer to disregard it. Obviously with books like Squadron Supreme they weren't going to just pretend that the incursions didn't happen again. Seemed like a weird choice to make.

[Ezyo1000]

The problem with Hickmans story is that it returned Wakanda to status quo BEFORE the Incursions occured. Once marvel editorial decided that the incursions happened despite T'Challa going back in time, Hickmans ending doesn't change very much. He may have intended to magically reverse everything but by having T'CHalla travel back in time rather than simply restore things and returning to prior to the first incursion, he ended up negating any reversal he may or may not have intended.

Truthfully I'm still not sure why he decided to travel back in time. It was a nice scene, but it was almost begging writer to disregard it. Obviously with books like Squadron Supreme they weren't going to just pretend that the incursions didn't happen again. Seemed like a weird choice to make.

It pretty clear it was reality altering and not time travel. Coates had T'Challa even say that in BP and Crew
Plus trying to day it was time travel gets unraveled immediately after you ask a few questions.

What we see on panel after sw is clearly reality stone status quo

[XPac]

It pretty clear it was reality altering and not time travel. Coates had T'Challa even say that in BP and Crew
Plus trying to day it was time travel gets unraveled immediately after you ask a few questions.

What we see on panel after sw is clearly reality stone status quo

Realistically he should be both. Reality was changed, but he was also clearly in the past as it was set just prior to the first incursion. Maybe Hickman didn't think the scene through, I don't know.

Either way, because marvel editorial decided that the incursion were still going to happen after T'CHalla's scene unfortunatley didn't prevent anything from happening. He frankly should have just had T'CHalla go to the final incursion rather than the first one. Though it was a nice scene, and I'm probably being a bit overly nitpicky about it.