Rachel (Grey) Summers: Phoenix II Appreciation 2020

[Cerridwen]

Rachel wouldn't take that crap tho. Especially when Nate is in trouble.

[Havok83]

So then Jean would be ok for the deaths of the Cuckoos, who are almost ten years younger than Rachel, and is ok with the continued death of QQ? That sounds pretty awful tbh. I'd hope she'd value their lives if she's protecting youth.

As for some of the other comments I totally agree if these interactions were on panel there would never need to be all this handwrining about these snubs.

And yes while they lived together in the Moon, in all the times they have had any family interactions on panel Rachel is either missing entirely, silent, or interacts with fringe characters. Again, if there was more than 5 panels every decade having them interact readers wouldn't have to invent details or question motives.

Not the same. Emma is the one taht sent the Cuckoos; Jean didnt select them. As for QQ, he died multiple times when the resurrection protocols were intact. His deaths were a non-issue. Jean being okay with deaths in this story is a moot point as she led a legion of X-men into battle in Otherworld, including Rachel. She was only excluded from the telepathic breach which doesnt seem to quite make sense

[Askani's Flame]

A mother protecting her own children doesn't make her a monster because others get put in danger. Its called maternal instinct. Lioness-cubs and all that.

It would require Jean to be motherly to Rachel, which she has seldom been outside of one issue of X-Men Red vs Cassie. While exaggerating the circumstance on my end, it still doesn't make logical sense that a telepathic attack which has no likelihood of death would exclude Rachel (who has intimate knowledge of Saturnyne and the Otherworld) but include the Cuckoos if Jean is looking for firepower. Also it seems that Emma isn't afraid of her children getting hurt, but different styles.

Not the same. Emma is the one taht sent the Cuckoos; Jean didnt select them. As for QQ, he died multiple times when the resurrection protocols were intact. His deaths were a non-issue. Jean being okay with deaths in this story is a moot point as she led a legion of X-men into battle in Otherworld, including Rachel. She was only excluded from the telepathic breach which doesnt seem to quite make sense

Sorry my sarcasm didn't read as well as I thought. I don't ACTUALLY think Jean is ok with these, but I was trying to show that the no-prize answer given would feel even more burdensome to the readers to explain if the sole reason Rachel was excluded from the telepathic assault was for the fear of Rachel's life as her daughter, but was ok with endangering someone else's daughters. That in itself feels unJean-like if it were to be the answer and not speculative (which it isn't). All and all it comes down to the issue I have with the continued separation and non-interaction of Jean and Rachel except for "vacation photographs" or splash pages. The fact that even in the beginning of this event Cable has to be the one to initiate contact with Jean and Scott, not Rachel or together, just Cable. It's the little things that are starting to add back into the trend we had for most of their shared existence.

[lowfyr]

I really wish people would stick with the claremont reboot. Rachel was for all intents a teen again and no longer had the hound marks. I feel i was one of the few who loved claremont's return to x-men. sure it was more of the same but it was enjoyable. While i didn't like the rachel dinosaur story the one where she had just came back and had that phoenix moniker and was getting close to betsy and teased emma at the baseball game was tops.

I would love that. And if they used the Phoenix like they did there or in Excalibur I would be very happy^^

[lowfyr]

exactly, her old body withered away during the fight with Necrom and the Phoenix (praise its infinite wisdom! ) created a new one starting from baby stage..... no more genetic hound conditioning, no more ugly bar code **** all over her beautiful face.

And still a connection to the Phoenix. Perfect.

And then came Chris Yost who decided that story of the Phoenix Echo being yanked from her in King breaker. He was the one who decided that the Phoenix Force stripped Rachel of all the stability of have her and turned her back into the hound girl. From there the mind control stories became abundant.

So true. I started to wonder if the editors had to fulfill a "Rachel gets mindcontrolled" quota, because that seemed to be her only trait. After reading her before it was painful to read. Adding the reduction of the Phoenix force to an engine of destruction added to that.

[Zelena]

I really wish people would stick with the claremont reboot. Rachel was for all intents a teen again and no longer had the hound marks. I feel i was one of the few who loved claremont's return to x-men. sure it was more of the same but it was enjoyable. While i didn't like the rachel dinosaur story the one where she had just came back and had that phoenix moniker and was getting close to betsy and teased emma at the baseball game was tops.

I liked adult Rachel. She was complex, weak and strong, mysterious too… It was nice to see this out of sync character in Excalibur becoming more and more happy and opened. She is less interesting, now.

[Askani's Flame]

I really wish people would stick with the claremont reboot. Rachel was for all intents a teen again and no longer had the hound marks. I feel i was one of the few who loved claremont's return to x-men. sure it was more of the same but it was enjoyable. While i didn't like the rachel dinosaur story the one where she had just came back and had that phoenix moniker and was getting close to betsy and teased emma at the baseball game was tops.

I liked adult Rachel. She was complex, weak and strong, mysterious too… It was nice to see this out of sync character in Excalibur becoming more and more happy and opened. She is less interesting, now.

I feel the same way you do about adult Rachel Zelena, and the progression and maturation of her throughout Excalibur. While I appreciated her return to the X-fold under Claremont, everything was a regression for her. She had already been freed of both Ahab and Mojo's programming. She had wielded the Phoenix Force through her own will. She went into the future to save a dear friend and ended up saving her brother and mutantkind. Her returning in Cable was great as the Rachel we loved was back, as an adult. She made a decision to go to college and step out of the hero light to focus on herself.

Then Claremont happened....well more specifically the "dead is dead" rule happened which forced Claremont to change his plans in X-Treme. Betsy was supposed to be the mysterious telepath under Bogan's control, and Rachel was going to come in sooner in that run with Amara to help end the Bogan stuff. But with editorial saying "dead is dead" it couldn't be Betsy, so he moved Rachel back into the mind control bit. And then further reverted her into the "noob teen sidekick" role of sorts in Uncanny which I think was problematic for a lot of her. She just felt so childish and had a lot of the growth and maturing removed from her under his pen. Sure she was powerful, but she was now Kitty/Jubilee which didn't work for her as an established character.

It's been a slow build back up for her. I think Davis, Bunn, Aaron, and Carey did well with her. Brubaker and Wood were ok. Claremont, Yost, Guggenheim, and Brisson were detrimental. I have high hopes with Leah.

[Daedra]

worst part about Claremont latest version of Rachel was her needing to be told by Emma how to turn invisible to common humans senses and the big phoenix phallus tattoo inflicted upon her back after the Greys slaughter

[Scott402]

worst part about Claremont latest version of Rachel was her needing to be told by Emma how to turn invisible to common humans senses and the big phoenix phallus tattoo inflicted upon her back after the Greys slaughter

While I can't argue with the tattoo that story line was excellent. the anguish and the emotion you feel when reading that issue is raw and the very best in my opinion of the type of reactions comics can provide. I will still pull that issue out and read it from time to time. Maybe it's because she is my favourite character and it was such a brutal thing but I really do think it shows you can have all the action in a comic as well as partner it with some hard hitting emotion. It was a regression in that early return to Uncanny but I think from there on into the shi'ar stuff it was great character building for her. Albeit it was more rebuilding then anything.

[Askani's Flame]

While I can't argue with the tattoo that story line was excellent. the anguish and the emotion you feel when reading that issue is raw and the very best in my opinion of the type of reactions comics can provide. I will still pull that issue out and read it from time to time. Maybe it's because she is my favourite character and it was such a brutal thing but I really do think it shows you can have all the action in a comic as well as partner it with some hard hitting emotion. It was a regression in that early return to Uncanny but I think from there on into the shi'ar stuff it was great character building for her. Albeit it was more rebuilding then anything.

Yeah, I will say that End of Greys was an amazing story and had a lot of emotional weight to it. So I'll give CC props for that. But making Rachel forget abilities she'd shown before and making her relearn them from Emma - no thanks.

[jwatson]

Yeah, I will say that End of Greys was an amazing story and had a lot of emotional weight to it. So I'll give CC props for that. But making Rachel forget abilities she'd shown before and making her relearn them from Emma - no thanks.

See while i can also see the point in everything stated about it feeling like a regression in my mind it was claremont's way of tying rachel to the 616 which i for one am glad he did because if he did not i wonder if there would be a rachel after Secret Wars happened. The idea from my reading of the comic was that rachel was reborn again but as just one rachel in all of reality so i understood a level of growth came with that but i can definitely see the other side.

[Daedra]

While I can't argue with the tattoo that story line was excellent. the anguish and the emotion you feel when reading that issue is raw and the very best in my opinion of the type of reactions comics can provide. I will still pull that issue out and read it from time to time. Maybe it's because she is my favourite character and it was such a brutal thing but I really do think it shows you can have all the action in a comic as well as partner it with some hard hitting emotion. It was a regression in that early return to Uncanny but I think from there on into the shi'ar stuff it was great character building for her. Albeit it was more rebuilding then anything.

I don't know, I guess it may be good in a vacuum and technically speaking it was interestingly executed but .....but....but this is Rachel we are talking about, she has already gone trough and survived one of the ugliest mutant holocaust in the x-men alternate history, I feel like it added nothing to her character, it was dumped on her like an additional pile of ****, took away members of her potential extended family and when all was said and done years later it did not open any remarkable venue of character growth.

[Askani's Flame]

I don't know, I guess it may be good in a vacuum and technically speaking it was interestingly executed but .....but....but this is Rachel we are talking about, she has already gone trough and survived one of the ugliest mutant holocaust in the x-men alternate history, I feel like it added nothing to her character, it was dumped on her like an additional pile of ****, took away members of her potential extended family and when all was said and done years later it did not open any remarkable venue of character growth.

That and it further traumatized her. She had to live through the decimation and slaughter (some she was forced to do) of her friends and "family". Now she is forced to witness the extermination of her blood family and get slapped by her maternal grandmother before she is also killed. That was a lot. Meanwhile even though she was with Corsair in space and on the moon, he has never addressed Rachel in a familial way. Has he with Cable?

[Havok83]

Apparently when Rachel connects with Hope, Hope gains hound marks

[Daedra]

Apparently when Rachel connects with Hope, Hope gains hound marks

I could live with it being just a psychic projection instead of an actual ever-present scar although could you imagine a ww2 holocaust survivor still using those nazi number codes to represent himself on a day to day basis?