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  1. #586
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    I've obviously missed something here... In which title and issue did Rachel arrive on Krakoa?

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    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micabe View Post
    I've obviously missed something here... In which title and issue did Rachel arrive on Krakoa?
    Almost all the X-men moved to Krakoa off panel prior to HoX #1, including Rachel. Her first appearance in the current era was X-men #1, where it was revealed that she lives in the Summer House on the Blue Area of the Moon, not the island of Krakoa

  3. #588
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Almost all the X-men moved to Krakoa off panel prior to HoX #1, including Rachel. Her first appearance in the current era was X-men #1, where it was revealed that she lives in the Summer House on the Blue Area of the Moon, not the island of Krakoa
    Ah, now I remember -- that horrible costume! Thanks
    Last edited by Micabe; 08-07-2020 at 05:03 PM.

  4. #589
    Astonishing Member Askani's Flame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvelboy1974 View Post
    I still wish Rachel has more interaction with Jean. What I want is a RACHEL GREY-SUMMERS one shot where Jean guest stars.
    It would be great, but it's not a story that Marvel wants to tell I guess. With a teenage Cable, Jean is primarily focused on being his mother again (which is awesome don't get me wrong). But even though they "live" in the same commune on the Moon (which Rachel is leaving now), they haven't interacted since Extermination 2 on panel (X-Men Chandilar image isn't an interaction). It's a choice. I almost feel like writers are like, "You know what, you got your Rachel and Jean stuff in two issues in X-Men Red. We're done."

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott402 View Post
    I've been rereading some of the more newer stuff with Rachel in after completing another reread of Excalibur. After finishing Extermination I have to say I would like to see an arch where Ahab gets his hands on Jean and others for an extended time. Turning them in hounds and Rachel is the only person who can get through to them. I think it would be an interesting switch and allow the others to know just what type of horrors Rachel has had to live through. I know there's barely a chance now as they don't seem to want to have Rachel and Jean talk on panel and Ahab is gone now but it's comics after all I wouldn't be surprised to see another version of him appear at some point.
    Ahab - While he is dead, and unlikely to be brought back, he has been killed seemingly before. And since he does exist outside of time in some fashions, they have ways of bringing him back through time or technology (like he somehow existed in a backup in the Transian serves or something).

    As for Extermination and your idea:
    Extermination could have been better if they allowed Rachel to be more of a part of the story than their mine to take from to get the ball rolling. But leading into the event we had a failed centralized plan for Rachel's degradation by the X-Office leading to something that never gelled because none of the editors made the writers work together, which then fed into Extermination. Brisson said that Rachel was going to be an important player in Extermination, but after issue 2 she was a literal mindless Hound. The only decent moments she got was with Cable's body and then speaking to the X-Men at the top of issue 2. Again, I get that this was not her story as it was for the O5, but don't mine from an existing character and make them disappear in essence.

    But the heart of the issue or thing that struck me in reading your proposed story is that it kinda already happened once with 'Days of Futures Present' where there was a brief moment of "if this was awful for Cyclops and Sue Storm for a day, it must have been unbearable for Rachel". And it happened again for like 1/2 the X-Men in Extermination. They were turned into hounds. They know what Rachel went through as they were turned. But because they were already moving into this forced Disassembled Era it was dropped. You would think that Kurt and Storm of all people would be shook and revolted at what had been done to them and seek justice for Rachel. Nope. Kitty? Nope. And we know Jean didn't care. Just as we know that writers don't care about writing Jean and Rachel at this point. The most we've gotten since Extermination 2 was a panel with them on the beach in Chandilar.

    While I don't anticipate it coming up again in the books (the events of Extermination), I do think it is worth being mentioned in this new Krakoan mantra of pro-mutants and mutant family. She was abandoned by her family when she needed the most help and was thankfully rescued by her younger brother. The dynamics of her feeling alone even in this new world should be a point to discuss as why she's so gruff. And why she's interacting with Scott so much again but not Jean. Or she has no close friends anymore, save Betsy and Rogue. It's sad, but I think that Leah is going to do right by her and finally provide Rachel with a compelling narrative and voice that she's been lacking for years.

  5. #590
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askani's Flame View Post
    It would be great, but it's not a story that Marvel wants to tell I guess. With a teenage Cable, Jean is primarily focused on being his mother again (which is awesome don't get me wrong). But even though they "live" in the same commune on the Moon (which Rachel is leaving now), they haven't interacted since Extermination 2 on panel (X-Men Chandilar image isn't an interaction). It's a choice. I almost feel like writers are like, "You know what, you got your Rachel and Jean stuff in two issues in X-Men Red. We're done."



    Ahab - While he is dead, and unlikely to be brought back, he has been killed seemingly before. And since he does exist outside of time in some fashions, they have ways of bringing him back through time or technology (like he somehow existed in a backup in the Transian serves or something).

    As for Extermination and your idea:
    Extermination could have been better if they allowed Rachel to be more of a part of the story than their mine to take from to get the ball rolling. But leading into the event we had a failed centralized plan for Rachel's degradation by the X-Office leading to something that never gelled because none of the editors made the writers work together, which then fed into Extermination. Brisson said that Rachel was going to be an important player in Extermination, but after issue 2 she was a literal mindless Hound. The only decent moments she got was with Cable's body and then speaking to the X-Men at the top of issue 2. Again, I get that this was not her story as it was for the O5, but don't mine from an existing character and make them disappear in essence.

    But the heart of the issue or thing that struck me in reading your proposed story is that it kinda already happened once with 'Days of Futures Present' where there was a brief moment of "if this was awful for Cyclops and Sue Storm for a day, it must have been unbearable for Rachel". And it happened again for like 1/2 the X-Men in Extermination. They were turned into hounds. They know what Rachel went through as they were turned. But because they were already moving into this forced Disassembled Era it was dropped. You would think that Kurt and Storm of all people would be shook and revolted at what had been done to them and seek justice for Rachel. Nope. Kitty? Nope. And we know Jean didn't care. Just as we know that writers don't care about writing Jean and Rachel at this point. The most we've gotten since Extermination 2 was a panel with them on the beach in Chandilar.

    While I don't anticipate it coming up again in the books (the events of Extermination), I do think it is worth being mentioned in this new Krakoan mantra of pro-mutants and mutant family. She was abandoned by her family when she needed the most help and was thankfully rescued by her younger brother. The dynamics of her feeling alone even in this new world should be a point to discuss as why she's so gruff. And why she's interacting with Scott so much again but not Jean. Or she has no close friends anymore, save Betsy and Rogue. It's sad, but I think that Leah is going to do right by her and finally provide Rachel with a compelling narrative and voice that she's been lacking for years.
    I get what your saying and agree that they do kind of mention it in the old X-Factor annual and then the fact most of them were changed into hounds during Extermination but to me the trauma is in the time and the years Rachel spent with Ahab. She was the prototype hound after all. He experimented on her. Perfected the process on her and then during Extermination he had the easy way with the two young mutants. That wasn't a real conditioning, it was a writers plot device. None of her family and closest friends have a clue what she went through and I think it would make for an excellent story to see them do so. I choose Jean because I want them to be closer and that would make them far closer in the end. Your point with her friends though simply getting on with their lives is well taken. Kitty, Kurt, Storm they all moved on quickly and maybe I am letting Jean off easy because I think she knew young Cable was going to go after her. Maybe they all knew, but he was still an unknown at that point and would have been better to see an old friend go with him.

    At least her friendship was acknowledged today with Kitty. In this new age of Krakoa everyone is not really acting like they should in my mind. The only book so far that seems to be any resemblance to what I think of as the X-Men is X-Factor and thankfully Rachel is apart of that. Unfortunately it's only one issue in so I hope I am not going to regret thinking that.

  6. #591
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott402 View Post
    I get what your saying and agree that they do kind of mention it in the old X-Factor annual and then the fact most of them were changed into hounds during Extermination but to me the trauma is in the time and the years Rachel spent with Ahab. She was the prototype hound after all. He experimented on her. Perfected the process on her and then during Extermination he had the easy way with the two young mutants. That wasn't a real conditioning, it was a writers plot device. None of her family and closest friends have a clue what she went through and I think it would make for an excellent story to see them do so. I choose Jean because I want them to be closer and that would make them far closer in the end. Your point with her friends though simply getting on with their lives is well taken. Kitty, Kurt, Storm they all moved on quickly and maybe I am letting Jean off easy because I think she knew young Cable was going to go after her. Maybe they all knew, but he was still an unknown at that point and would have been better to see an old friend go with him.
    I mean there is no doubt that Rachel's life has been messed up ever since they stole her and experimented on her. The use of drugs, mental conditioning, and physical torture left a lasting impact on her. Once they succeeded in that particular formula they were able to streamline it even more. What took years for her took moments in X-Factor through technological means, and same with the twins by psychic means. I don't disagree that it WOULD have made an excellent storyline, or an even better plot for X-Force where those that became hounds band together to save her. It could have been great. But instead the writer made ALL of them (except Bobby and Nate)apathetic. Which was really the crux of why I ended up despising Brisson and what came after.

    And yes, TBH, I think you are giving Jean credit and others where no credit is due. Young Cable was an unknown element during that run. He was a villain to start in their eyes, and eventually people realized who he was. But could they trust him, not knowing this version? I understand that many of them were slowly rousing from being hounds (as evident on the page), but no one even said, "We need to save her!" No one. Not Kurt. Not Kitty. Not Ororo. Not Jean. No one. The most anyone even said was Jean and that she couldn't save Rachel because her pain was real. She then IMMEDIATELY switched to the doting parent and was only concerned with Nate. I get it to an extent. She raised Cable. She saw his dead adult body. And now a teenager not much older than when she was forced to leave sat in front of her. But it was callous how she and the rest never said a word about Rachel again. And Cable left without even really saying he was going to get Rachel. His primary focus was to stop Ahab, with a likely inference to Rachel. But that no one ever mentioned her again was just problematic. She wasn't brought up even being a member of Cable's family in the Cable one-shot about his death. No one mentioned her at all in Disassembled. Gone. No one even thought of her until Cable was forced to reveal to Domino that he was actually tracking Ahab to find Rachel. And then none of them were focused really on saving her but helping Nate and stopping Stryfe. Again, it all comes down to what is on panel. On panel, none of them cared she left. The end. AND that is something I wish would be brought up in X-Factor at some point.

    At least her friendship was acknowledged today with Kitty. In this new age of Krakoa everyone is not really acting like they should in my mind. The only book so far that seems to be any resemblance to what I think of as the X-Men is X-Factor and thankfully Rachel is apart of that. Unfortunately it's only one issue in so I hope I am not going to regret thinking that.
    I haven't read it but it made me happy that she would be there with Illyana. At least her previous friendship with Kitty was recognized, seeing as they haven't interacted since Extermination on page.

  7. #592
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askani's Flame View Post
    I mean there is no doubt that Rachel's life has been messed up ever since they stole her and experimented on her. The use of drugs, mental conditioning, and physical torture left a lasting impact on her. Once they succeeded in that particular formula they were able to streamline it even more. What took years for her took moments in X-Factor through technological means, and same with the twins by psychic means. I don't disagree that it WOULD have made an excellent storyline, or an even better plot for X-Force where those that became hounds band together to save her. It could have been great. But instead the writer made ALL of them (except Bobby and Nate)apathetic. Which was really the crux of why I ended up despising Brisson and what came after.

    And yes, TBH, I think you are giving Jean credit and others where no credit is due. Young Cable was an unknown element during that run. He was a villain to start in their eyes, and eventually people realized who he was. But could they trust him, not knowing this version? I understand that many of them were slowly rousing from being hounds (as evident on the page), but no one even said, "We need to save her!" No one. Not Kurt. Not Kitty. Not Ororo. Not Jean. No one. The most anyone even said was Jean and that she couldn't save Rachel because her pain was real. She then IMMEDIATELY switched to the doting parent and was only concerned with Nate. I get it to an extent. She raised Cable. She saw his dead adult body. And now a teenager not much older than when she was forced to leave sat in front of her. But it was callous how she and the rest never said a word about Rachel again. And Cable left without even really saying he was going to get Rachel. His primary focus was to stop Ahab, with a likely inference to Rachel. But that no one ever mentioned her again was just problematic. She wasn't brought up even being a member of Cable's family in the Cable one-shot about his death. No one mentioned her at all in Disassembled. Gone. No one even thought of her until Cable was forced to reveal to Domino that he was actually tracking Ahab to find Rachel. And then none of them were focused really on saving her but helping Nate and stopping Stryfe. Again, it all comes down to what is on panel. On panel, none of them cared she left. The end. AND that is something I wish would be brought up in X-Factor at some point.



    I haven't read it but it made me happy that she would be there with Illyana. At least her previous friendship with Kitty was recognized, seeing as they haven't interacted since Extermination on page.
    So are you saying he refined the hound process over time? I could accept that as reasoning for the quicker transition to hounds but still felt far to rushed and more a plot device then anything to me.

    I don't disagree with anything you've said but perhaps I just look at it differently. You are right though in stressing what is revealed on panel. I hoped I had made it clear that I thought I was perhaps being generous with off panel motivations.

    The way they did move in the in the Disassembled era was annoying for sure. I know some didn't like her in Gold but I enjoyed seeing Rachel in Gold and then she was almost quite literally thrown away.... again. It had me thinking it was going to be years again until we got her in a book full time.

    The reveal in X-Force I had forgotten about. You are right that all of X-Force had not really pieced it together until young Cable spelled it out for them. Again perhaps I am being generous in saying the relationships between them and Rachel weren't exactly strong. At least that series gave us an epic Rachel moment though when she unleashed on Stryfe. You are right in perhaps my idea for them to experience truly the hound state was wasting and could have been better used in that twelve issue X-Force series but it would have taken Jean off the board at a time they were building to that horrendous age of X-man event.

    I still think it could be done and certainly as you said before; Ahab can come back. Time travel and all and I think he's an interesting villain though that they really haven't used well at all since his introduction.

  8. #593
    Astonishing Member Askani's Flame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott402 View Post
    So are you saying he refined the hound process over time? I could accept that as reasoning for the quicker transition to hounds but still felt far to rushed and more a plot device then anything to me.

    I don't disagree with anything you've said but perhaps I just look at it differently. You are right though in stressing what is revealed on panel. I hoped I had made it clear that I thought I was perhaps being generous with off panel motivations.

    The way they did move in the in the Disassembled era was annoying for sure. I know some didn't like her in Gold but I enjoyed seeing Rachel in Gold and then she was almost quite literally thrown away.... again. It had me thinking it was going to be years again until we got her in a book full time.

    The reveal in X-Force I had forgotten about. You are right that all of X-Force had not really pieced it together until young Cable spelled it out for them. Again perhaps I am being generous in saying the relationships between them and Rachel weren't exactly strong. At least that series gave us an epic Rachel moment though when she unleashed on Stryfe. You are right in perhaps my idea for them to experience truly the hound state was wasting and could have been better used in that twelve issue X-Force series but it would have taken Jean off the board at a time they were building to that horrendous age of X-man event.

    I still think it could be done and certainly as you said before; Ahab can come back. Time travel and all and I think he's an interesting villain though that they really haven't used well at all since his introduction.
    Yes, Ahab continued to refine and deepen the hound process after getting the success with Rachel. As the prototype they based all improvements on the way the molded her into one. As they needed to create hounds that also weren't telepaths in nature (like Rachel), the architects of the hound program with the help of the Sentinels continued to advance the process where it was done solely using technology to expedite the hound process. It wasn't until Extermination that Ahab found a mutant means of creating hounds psychologically. Jean was able to reverse the psychological conditioning that twins used, but anyone who had been subjected to earlier versions (like Rachel), would likely only have one element of their hounding process reversed. As Rachel's mind was already in a fragile state due to Cassandra Nova and Mesmero, the combination of Ahab's harpoon and the twins reverted her back into the hound state, but even further than before where she could barely speak. But overall I don't disagree with you that it was a plot device. I knew the twins were working with Ahab after reading the first article based on the way they were interacting with key X-Men.

    I totally get wanting to be generous. I, too, would love to be generous to the X-Men and Jean. But it's not what was on panel or ever been mentioned. So when an editor or writer says, "Oh well this happened off panel. We can't show everything...", I take it as they were sloppy and lazy and decided since they are getting flack from readers they can use that as an excuse to quell them. I would love to not feel this way about the ending of Extermination, but it is what it is.

    I definitely think that the greenlight of X-Force allowed Brisson to change the ending of Extermination slightly and caused a delay in the final book, which then came out after Disassembled#1. And if they referenced Rachel (which they wouldn't have anyways) it might have given away the end of Extermination. So the timing of everything didn't play in her favor. As for Gold, I really was excited that she was going to be in it, but then Guggenheim had her constantly passing out to claiming new feats of the most low-level tp skills (Rachel being able to communicate with Bobby miles away, STFU) and had her jobbing to Mesmero every issue. It did nothing to elevate her character or story.

    Yes, I still live for that moment when Rachel breaks free and decimates Stryfe's people. And you're not wrong, based on who was in X-Force most of them didn't have any connection to Rachel previously except for Sam (who was closer to her during their shared mansion time in New Mutants/X-Men as well as when they served together in Uncanny) and Warpath (who was Rachel's close teammate for a time during the RAFotSE period).

    I don't think your idea is bad by any stretch, I just don't think we'll see it happen under the Hickman era unless they involve the black telepath hounds from Powers of X. It would have been great, but it wasn't a story to tell at the time. Extermination felt like two events mashed into 1: Rachel-Ahab-Hounds-Cable and Sending the O5 home.

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    Astonishing Member Askani's Flame's Avatar
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    Side Note: Looks like we were sadly correct in assuming that Rachel was on the promo covers but not a player in X of Swords. I could be wrong but given the covers and characters with swords that have been shown NO ONE from X-Factor is involved with this event outside the issue featuring the Resurrection Team. Le sigh. Another major event and Rachel is missing or a non-player. Someday she'll play a role where she isn't turned into a punching bag, hound, or side-lined for "reasons that would make the story make sense".

  10. #595
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askani's Flame View Post
    Side Note: Looks like we were sadly correct in assuming that Rachel was on the promo covers but not a player in X of Swords. I could be wrong but given the covers and characters with swords that have been shown NO ONE from X-Factor is involved with this event outside the issue featuring the Resurrection Team. Le sigh. Another major event and Rachel is missing or a non-player. Someday she'll play a role where she isn't turned into a punching bag, hound, or side-lined for "reasons that would make the story make sense".
    I don’t see why there is disappointment.

    X-Factor is literally just starting out. So it makes sense why there’s no immediate crossover.


    The last book I saw do that (where issue 1,2,3 were crossovers) was in the last Spider-Woman book.

    And the majority complained about it.

  11. #596
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    I don’t see why there is disappointment.

    X-Factor is literally just starting out. So it makes sense why there’s no immediate crossover.


    The last book I saw do that (where issue 1,2,3 were crossovers) was in the last Spider-Woman book.

    And the majority complained about it.
    For me, I'm disappointed that once again Rachel features on two promotional artwork pieces for what is deemed as a huge event for the X-Men and she will be no where to be seen. I'm not complaining about the lack of cross-over into the X-Factor series, as I do agree that events tend to mess up the starting flow of books, but I am disappointed that the likelihood of seeing Rachel or Lorna have any role in this event has significantly dropped. And this is a constant thing for Rachel and Lorna. They are either shipped away for huge events, turned into a punching bag/knocked out early on, or excluded because their histories with the prescribed events poses an issue for the small narrative writers are trying to force. It would be nice to see characters that aren't always front and center in the X-Men to be allowed to have roles in these events. Like that fact that Doug is in the mix makes me super happy, but I'm done with the standard Logan center of this. Daken could just as easily wield the Muramasa blade.

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    MARAUDERS #11 was more evidence that Rachel’s X-Factor look suffers a bit under the care of other artists. Hoping for a happy middle ground in future depictions. It’s a style that’s hard to pull off.
    A862366F-4EA9-43A1-AC5D-9B529F5A1A2C.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thirteen View Post
    MARAUDERS #11 was more evidence that Rachel’s X-Factor look suffers a bit under the care of other artists. Hoping for a happy middle ground in future depictions. It’s a style that’s hard to pull off.
    A862366F-4EA9-43A1-AC5D-9B529F5A1A2C.jpg
    No spikes and ringlets is a good thing.

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    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thirteen View Post
    MARAUDERS #11 was more evidence that Rachel’s X-Factor look suffers a bit under the care of other artists. Hoping for a happy middle ground in future depictions. It’s a style that’s hard to pull off.
    A862366F-4EA9-43A1-AC5D-9B529F5A1A2C.jpg
    Thats not her X-Factor look. Thats looks like civilian wear. Her X-Factor look is an actual costume

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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Thats not her X-Factor look. Thats looks like civilian wear. Her X-Factor look is an actual costume
    Then, f#@k her X-Factor getdown... Rachel's butt, face, and crotch is slammin' in this pic
    Last edited by Micabe; 08-16-2020 at 11:30 PM.

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