Rachel (Grey) Summers: Phoenix II Appreciation 2020

[xhx23x]

It's hard not to see it as on purpose some times. I remember some years ago when I was estactic that Rachel and Nate got to share one panel on that sitcom-y New Mutants run just because it was so rare to have Rachel interact with her family. And it just keeps being more of the same. During Schism this was even acknowledge with the awkward hall scene between Teen Jean and Rachel. So writers are aware of how they keep Rachel away from them. I'm not saying there's a huge push to do this for story reasons but writers can't deny that there's some sort of friction there that has basically gone unexplored.

[RachelGrey]

Scott Lobdell was the one who showed Jean fully accepting Rachel in Excalibur Volume 1 #71!

Jean told Rachel that she and Scott were getting married and were going to try and have a baby in the hopes of giving birth to Rachel in their reality! Jean wanted Rachel to come to the wedding to be one of the Bridesmaids, and she wanted Rachel to know that she accepted Rachel as her daughter!

A few issues later Rachel was lost in the timestream and went to the Askani future! Rachel and Jean interacted in the Askani stories, but Rachel was really old and she was in a coma most of the time because she expended the last of her power to bring Jean and Scott forward in time to raise Nathan and to stop Apocalypse and Stryfe!

X-Men Red Annual by Tom Taylor had them talk in their minds but we didn't get to see much of what they shared with each other! When Jean rescued Rachel from Cassandra Nova she did tell Cassandra to let her daughter go and Jean offered to exchange places so Rachel could be free of control! I know it was a trick, but Jean was pretty sincere about it because Cassandra could read her thoughts and knew that Jean cared about Rachel!

However, X-Men Gold by Guggenheim ignored all canon history and he made it seem like Jean disliked Rachel or something! In Brisson's Decimation, he barely had Rachel and Jean even talk to each other at all, I think it was just the one time when they were all discussing Ahab and Rachel was warning the entire team how dangerous he is!

So other than Tom Taylor and Scott Lobdell, Rachel and Jean have not interacted in years!

I do remember Claremont wrote in X-Treme X-Men that Jean had left behind a memory crystal and uniform in case Rachel ever returned to encourage Rachel to be Marvel Girl, and to also tell Rachel she was proud of her!

So in 30 years, Jean and Rachel have acted like family about 4 times in positive interactions!

A few writers don't even pay attention to canon history and try to go back to the only story they know Days of Future Present where Jean had an emotional breakdown when she found out about Rachel and she rejected Rachel! But that predates all the stories I mentioned above! Days of Future Present took place just after Excalibur and X-Factor had started on their initial issues! It was when Jean and Scott found out Rachel was their daughter from an alternate future reality!

[Havok83]

why do you end every sentence with an exclamation point?

[RachelGrey]

why do you end every sentence with an exclamation point?

Bad Grammar and I was tired.

[Askani's Flame]

OK, so much has transpired since I last logged in. LOL.

First, I personally don't believe there is a conspiracy, but it almost feels that there is just an acceptance that they don't interact and not to show them interacting that way. As many have pointed out, there is no harm in having them address each other on panel every so often. When they don't, it's jarring and leaves some readers wondering what's up with that.

Writers have already a set story-line (s) that has absolutely nothing to do with (or very, very little) what the fans want or wish for. You don't see Rachel and Jean interacting because it's some gross conspiracy against their fans... it's just not part of the set plot.
I can almost guarantee...No writer is sitting at their desk thinking..."hmmm...what exactly do the fans want and how do I write(force) that into a story?"

That's fair, But in the same breath when there are obvious connections and opportunities to utilize the talents of both, say for instance in XoS when Jean needed telepaths to breach the Otherworld, why is Rachel not mentioned or even used but others come to Jean's mind? Especially to save her brother? Things that make you go hmmmm....

I used to think it was some conspiracy theory as well but the posters that do may have some point bc it is puzzling how Jean and Rachel have been alive and in the same space for over a year now and yet to have a single on panel interaction. That has nothing to do with the writers having a set plot for them bc it takes nothing away from the story to have them acknowledge each other when they are in the same scene

Yes

I think it is a little jarring and makes the mind go hmmm when you can have panels of Cable with Scott and Jean and then in the same books or later there is an isolation and you only really get the two together Cable/Rachel when only scott is present. Not saying that is what it is but it does seem strange. As havok83 one or two scenes would not have changed the plot.

Yup

Normally i would agree but getting a feeling for how characters interact when you are calling them family is more than fan service. I don't think anyone can say how either feel about or interact with each other and i do think that's important to overall plot. In all of their scenes visually there has been a distance between them. Rachel could be there simply because Scott and Cable are and the same for Jean. If that is what it is it's cool but at least say it.

It does seem there is always distance. And yes, their relationship has always been hot or cold it seems.

And maybe that's just the reader interpreting more than necessary into it?

I understand what you and others are saying...but...at the same time...if the scene does not indicate any "friction" or "coldness" when they are together and not being the main focus of the scene (clearly HiX-Man has more of an affinity for Cable and Scott. And Jean hasn't appeared in X-Factor...yet. Rachel hasn't showed up in X-Force...yet) then you can't go throwing out accusations about "conspiracy" or "bad writing" or "negligence".
Some things you sort of have to take at face-value...we've always had to do so since the Claremont days...and one of those things is the Summers/Grey are a family. (We also know from X-Men 01 that despite Rachel attending the dinner she still kept apart and felt out of place for some reason...that hasn't been addressed yet and may never be addressed.)

I get why it's important for the fans of the characters...but I also get why it may not be that important to the writers of these characters.

No one is asking for their conversation or interaction to be the main focus of the scene. It's just striking that for the argument that Jean and Rachel are closer than ever, there is a lack of evidence on panel to show they are close. Not since X-Men Red 9 was there a closeness, which technically happened before Extermination, where both Jeans were unnecessarily cold and distant (as well as unsympathetic) to Rachel and her plight. So readers are left with this back and forth which ended on a poor note. And currently all the scenes they have been in together they have been on opposite sides of the room or beach, so that is an indication of a lack of closeness.

Also Jean appeared in X-Factor 1 as a member of the QC hearing Lorna's recount of Aurora's investigation. She had 2 lines. And was in the same place as Rachel. No acknowledgement. Magneto praised Lorna's work. Jean - nope. And I disagree, Claremont would throw a line out here or there to re-establish (or establish) interpersonal relations, which we don't see anymore.

LOL. Goddess alone knows that everything is up for interpretation and more often than not gross mis-interpretation.
That's why I personally try not to project too much or read what is not there on the page...until the writer implicitly says something.
As it stands with Jean and Rachel...maybe they're just not as close as Scott and Cable...keeping in mind that the depth of that plot point is based on what happened between Scott and Madelyne, leading up to and during Inferno , and understandably so.

Jean and Rachel's dynamic has always been very different and even a little distant (so you could argue that the writers are staying true to context). But even if the story and canon doesn't clearly show they care for and about each other...at least it does not say they don't.

100% their dynamic is different. I'm one for taking what's on the page at face value. If there are multiple scenes where they cannot be drawn or written to seem close or connect with each other, then one shouldn't say they are close if that's not what is presented. So when you say there is nothing in the story to show they care for each other, canon doesn't clearly show that they care for each other, and furthermore the writing and artwork shows no interaction or closeness, then you don't need it to be written out for it to be true because everything else shows it to be the case.

Excuses. When Jean was doing a telepathic breach of Otherworld, there is no reason why Rachel couldnt have been alongside her4, especially considering it was to save her brother. That would have been a callback to the very first issue where Rachel and Nate did a TP investigation which prompted him to bring Jean into the story. There's been 2 dinner scenes and the two did not interact at all in those issues. There was filler material in those issues so having Jean and Rachel speak wouldnt have taken away from anything. There's also several other missed opportunities. Once or twice wouldnt have been an issue but it seems more like a pattern at this point

Very true. The fact that Nathan had to go and contact Jean telepathically to relay his findings with Rachel, instead of their being an existing link between the 3-4 of them where Rachel could just reach out to Jean, shows there is no contact. Why? What is the rationale? Again, how would it negatively impact the scene or its importance to have Rachel reach out to Jean? It wouldn't, but conversely it would have been a "oh yay Jean and Rachel moment" and people would not blink an eye. But when someone is excluded it's noticed.

I'm always quite entertained by just how industriously some try to revise and re-write a story that was already written months in advance. It's like they should be writing for Marvel instead of the writers they have now.

Who is rewriting or revising? We're pointing out literal scenes and panels. You may not draw the same conclusions as some of us, but pointing out them doesn't revise them.

It's hard not to see it as on purpose some times. I remember some years ago when I was estactic that Rachel and Nate got to share one panel on that sitcom-y New Mutants run just because it was so rare to have Rachel interact with her family. And it just keeps being more of the same. During Schism this was even acknowledge with the awkward hall scene between Teen Jean and Rachel. So writers are aware of how they keep Rachel away from them. I'm not saying there's a huge push to do this for story reasons but writers can't deny that there's some sort of friction there that has basically gone unexplored.

I think the bolded is very true. The leaps and hoops that previous editors and writers made to separate the two over the years is very evident. It started by shipping Rachel to Excalibur and not having them interact for years until 'Days of Futures Present'. Then again another few years of not interacting til Rachel had been resurrected and they began making amends. Again when Jean died Rachel was officially brought back, even though she had been around for a while but not interacting with anyone other than Cable. When Teen Jean arrived Rachel was shipped out of her own book on "superhero missions" so she wouldn't have to interact with Jean as Bendis did not like Rachel and felt she was problematic to Jean. Then Jean left the school so it was fine and Rachel could be in her book again. Honestly Red was a breath of fresh air in terms of their relationship (but not for Rachel overall as it was her being mind controlled in 3rd book at the same time), that was then soured by everything in Gold and Extermination. So readers were left with one book saying Jean cares a lot for Rachel, but in every other book it's cold or apathetic. And that's where are currently. We're told they are a family. We are shown pictures of them on vacation, and are given visual scenes where they are in the same space. But never to they touch or talk, but everyone else is.

[Havok83]

So Jean was in today's issue of X-men but of course she doesnt interact with Rachel on the family outing and there is literally no reason why they couldnt have. I just cant.....

[Scott402]

It's funny because Askani's Flame lays it all out there in an epic post that I really don't disagree with on any of the points made. Then X-Men comes out today and Rachel and Jean are in the same book but don't share any time together again. It's just so sad it has to be funny at this point.

[Askani's Flame]

I haven't read the issue yet but I'm no longer surprised. I honestly question any reader who says that clearly Jean and Rachel have a caring relationship, but it is clear they do not. We will never have them interact on panel or have a moment, because that is too hard apparently. Welp, that's that folks.

Did Rachel do anything of note in today's X-Men?

[Havok83]

I haven't read the issue yet but I'm no longer surprised. I honestly question any reader who says that clearly Jean and Rachel have a caring relationship, but it is clear they do not. We will never have them interact on panel or have a moment, because that is too hard apparently. Welp, that's that folks.

Did Rachel do anything of note in today's X-Men?

No. She and Nate exists for Scott to explain whats going on between Krakoa and Arakko. She disappears after the first few pages

[Scott402]

No. She and Nate exists for Scott to explain whats going on between Krakoa and Arakko. She disappears after the first few pages

In fairness so does Cable but it wouldn't have taken much to just draw Jean with them at the beginning.

[kevinism]

Bad Grammar and I was tired.

I usually can't get through a whole post yelling in my head.