Wally West: The Flash Appreciation 2020

[PennyDreadful]

He got an editor fired because he wanted a specific artist to draw an issue of Batman. He has gone to WB and AT&T to get things approved for his run. He's co-writing there New Gods movie. He has pull in the company.

He was also removed from Batman after sales dropped. And some writers have much more status. We generally don't know the full story about the company's doings. And it is unlikely he would have any say over characters he does not own and a story he is not writing. Especially with company management in flux. However DC chooses to handle things following Identity Crisis 2: Electric Boogaloo, that is up to them. The company has final say in how their IPs are handled.

[Kyer]

Previous comments got me wondering something from a long time ago.

I take it that Star Girl's being a native of Blue Valley did not predate Wally's being born there so why did the creator of Star Girl choose that town for his/her character and did Wally and Star Girl ever interact (I mean for more than a quick scene or two)?

[Dred]

Wally and Courtney have never interacted for more than a brief interchange, no.

Courtney is from Blue Valley specifically because Johns' favorite character is/was Wally and when he created Courtney he decided to situate her there for that reason. She is legacy character much in the same vein as Wally, too (not actually directly related to her predecessors just like Wally). Courtney is a very on the nose combination of Starman, Wally West, and Johns' unfortunately deceased sister.

Beyond all of that, they never interacted much because she existed for about 5 years before Wally was kicked out of comics pretty much entirely. She's also already kind of a minor character. A B-role in a tertiary team book. There's not going to be much cross-series communication in the first place when you're from different franchises. It's like wondering why Tim Drake and Wally have barely interacted despite both being around and in top form at the same time for over a decade.

[Jekyll]

Previous comments got me wondering something from a long time ago.

I take it that Star Girl's being a native of Blue Valley did not predate Wally's being born there so why did the creator of Star Girl choose that town for his/her character and did Wally and Star Girl ever interact (I mean for more than a quick scene or two)?

Dred did a great job summarizing. While Wally never had any real interaction with Courtney, Bart and her had several hilarious team ups.

[Ascended]

Questions for Wally fans.

Do you consider Kadabra more as a Wally nemesis now instead of Barry?

Do you think Kadabra can be considered Wally’s arch nemesis along with Zolomon?

Yeah, I think Kadabra feels more like a Wally villain to me than a Barry one.

I dunno about the archnemesis role.....I feel like Zolomon earned that position. But I can see an argument for saying Kadabra is on the upper end of Wally's list (yet is towards the bottom of Barry's).

Doesn't bother me when Wally and Barry share rogues either. I mean, they're Flash villains, both guys are Flash and both guys have fought the same villains for years.

[Will Evans]

Wally and Courtney have never interacted for more than a brief interchange, no.

Courtney is from Blue Valley specifically because Johns' favorite character is/was Wally and when he created Courtney he decided to situate her there for that reason. She is legacy character much in the same vein as Wally, too (not actually directly related to her predecessors just like Wally). Courtney is a very on the nose combination of Starman, Wally West, and Johns' unfortunately deceased sister.

Beyond all of that, they never interacted much because she existed for about 5 years before Wally was kicked out of comics pretty much entirely. She's also already kind of a minor character. A B-role in a tertiary team book. There's not going to be much cross-series communication in the first place when you're from different franchises. It's like wondering why Tim Drake and Wally have barely interacted despite both being around and in top form at the same time for over a decade.

Courtney has been in comics since 1999. Wally didn’t disappear until 2011.

Back in 1999, in Courtney’s comics “Stars and S.T.R.I.P.E.”, Wally’s identity as Flash was publicly known. He was a famous superhero with no secret ID.

So Blue Valley prided itself as the birthplace of the Flash. Calling itself “Home of Kid Flash.”

So a subplot of Courtney’s comics was trying to prove herself as the new hometown hero, even though everyone loved Wally.

[Dred]

Courtney has been in comics since 1999. Wally didn’t disappear until 2011.

Back in 1999, in Courtney’s comics “Stars and S.T.R.I.P.E.”, Wally’s identity as Flash was publicly known. He was a famous superhero with no secret ID.

So Blue Valley prided itself as the birthplace of the Flash. Calling itself “Home of Kid Flash.”

So a subplot of Courtney’s comics was trying to prove herself as the new hometown hero, even though everyone loved Wally.

Wally disappeared in 2005 with Infinite Crisis. He came back in late 2007, stuck around for a little over a year until he could be squashed by Barry. He didn't technically disappear until 2011, I guess, but he functionally did as he was barely a supporting character for Barry at that point.

Wally's ID was reverted back to secret in 2003 with Blitz. The Blue Valley stuff was there at first, yes, and I mentioned that Courtney being from there is expressly because Johns loves Wally.

[married guy]

Questions for Wally fans.

Do you consider Kadabra more as a Wally nemesis now instead of Barry?

Do you think Kadabra can be considered Wally’s arch nemesis along with Zolomon?

Kadabra was DEFINITELY Wally's nemesis during Waid's run on the title. (By his own admission, he couldn't get a a handle on the Rogues and made an effort to avoid them altogether)
After that though? Hell no.
Geoff gave the Flash/Captain Cold relationship an entirely new spin with a grudging respect from both parties.
Johns also reintroduced Gorilla Grodd and him SCARY.
Kadabra barely made another appearance and Hunter Zolomon was introduced as Wally's opposite number.

I consider Kadabra more of a Wally foe than Barry, only because Kadabra has screwed far harder with Wally than he ever did against Barry.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I'm not sure about that.

King constantly talks about how much he loves that book. And while he acknowledges the story might been accepted better with a less popular character, he still thinks Wally was a perfect fit for the role, and believes he did Wally & his fans a giant favor with the story. He doesn't think there was anything wrong with Wally's portrayal.

So I don't think he'd like an explanation that would undercut/change Wally's motives in the story.

His story is still going to be there and the people who like it can still like it. I have no doubt that King stands by his story and the choices he made, even if he also understands that most readers didn't like it. King's a big enough comics nerd that he's under no illusions about the ever-shifting nature of superhero continuity. I mean, he's been pretty clear about how he's outright ignoring the Flemming/Kubert Adam Strange mini because of the creative choices made just didn't work, despite some awesome art. Ron Marz certainly never begrudged Geoff Johns explaining away his story (at least publicly). Most comic professionals know they don't own these characters. They know that any story they write can be retconned or rewritten at any time. From all the interviews I've hear with him, Tom King doesn't seem to suffer from an overinflated ego. He doesn't seem like the kind of creator who'd have a hissy fit over DC explaining away a story he acknowledges was very poorly received.

I'm sure, sooner or later, Wally's actions during HiC will get dark multiverse gooped away or something similar. It's only a matter of time, particularly without Didio around to keep his counterproductive cycle of fan baiting going. Give it a year and Wally will be back, shiny and unblemished again. With any luck, they'll drop Flash to monthly again and add a second Flash team-up book focused on Wally and all the various speedsters out there. I'd also be happy with a Multiverse-centric title featuring Wally. Either way, I don't see DC leaving money on the table here. These days, they need all the goodwill from fans they can muster

[married guy]

I'm sure, sooner or later, Wally's actions during HiC will get dark multiverse gooped away or something similar. It's only a matter of time, particularly without Didio around to keep his counterproductive cycle of fan baiting going. Give it a year and Wally will be back, shiny and unblemished again. With any luck, they'll drop Flash to monthly again and add a second Flash team-up book focused on Wally and all the various speedsters out there. I'd also be happy with a Multiverse-centric title featuring Wally. Either way, I don't see DC leaving money on the table here. These days, they need all the goodwill from fans they can muster

God, I really do hope you're right......

[BohemiaDrinker]

As long as Barry's around Wally will be "not quite Flash" anyway.

Nah, that's only the case while DC wants it to be. Remember DickBats? Sure, we all knew it was temporary, but as long as it lasted, he looked like Batman, he was treated like Batman in story, and that was enough for everyone to go like "ok, that's Batman". Even when he stood side by side with BruceBats.

Same can be done here. In fact, it can be done much more easily. All it takes is editorial will.

But it's too soon to know how the Jim Lee era is going to play out (or even how much it will last). I personally like his editorial chops since the golden years of Wildstorm, the Ellis/Joe Casey ones. But DC is a way bigger operation, wit much more pressure, and things might have changed. Time will tell.

The Rebirth suit isn't bad; the lines are clean, the colors are solid, and as re-designs go it's pretty good. But its shout-out to Wally's time as a sidekick isn't something I can't accept. We might as well have Nightwing change his costume so he's wearing short shorts. It's the visual representation of the character taking a step backwards, and as good as the Rebirth suit is (and it is well designed) I can't forgive it for rubbing my nose in the fact that Wally's going to be held back and treated as being less than he is.

Oh, it's in no way a "bad design". It's basically a color swap of Kid Flash's costume, and Kid Flash's costume is one of the greatest super-hero suit designs of all time. But, because that design is so good, it did create some paradigms, the same as The Flash's classic suit.

And the design mandate behind it is public:



In contrast, this is one of the designs he submitted back then:



I'm not exactly crazy about it, but it does send the right message.

Too similar to Barry's suits. The artists would get the details wrong anyway.

I'm not married to the shiny suit at all, but this arguments don't hold water.

Again, DickBats wore a BatSuit that had slightly different gloves and belt. No confusion. Same would be true here: any section of the 90's suit, no matter how close, is different from Barry's suit. It could be done if they wanted to.

Second, artists don't just "get details wrong": there's some leeway for artistic interpretation when it's known that it won't cause problems or confusion. So, when Wally was the only Flash his belt was sometimes an M, sometimes a V, and that was fine. Scott Kolins draws Barry with the straight belt today and that's fine as well.

But when things get a little more dicey, editorial usually steps in and makes sure everyone is on model: we didn't ever see enough of DickBats wearing the wrong gloves or Kal-L and Kal-El with the same S-Crest.

The shinny suit only becomes a problem when we take into account cross-media, since we've seen Barry with Wally's suit a number of times.

Questions for Wally fans.

Do you consider Kadabra more as a Wally nemesis now instead of Barry?

Do you think Kadabra can be considered Wally’s arch nemesis along with Zolomon?

Yes. Kadabra was responsible for some pretty big setbacks on Wally's life across 2 continuities, so I'd say he is more of a Wally villain.

Barry can (and should) get Murmur in exchange.

[BohemiaDrinker]

His story is still going to be there and the people who like it can still like it. I have no doubt that King stands by his story and the choices he made, even if he also understands that most readers didn't like it. King's a big enough comics nerd that he's under no illusions about the ever-shifting nature of superhero continuity. I mean, he's been pretty clear about how he's outright ignoring the Flemming/Kubert Adam Strange mini because of the creative choices made just didn't work, despite some awesome art. Ron Marz certainly never begrudged Geoff Johns explaining away his story (at least publicly). Most comic professionals know they don't own these characters. They know that any story they write can be retconned or rewritten at any time. From all the interviews I've hear with him, Tom King doesn't seem to suffer from an overinflated ego. He doesn't seem like the kind of creator who'd have a hissy fit over DC explaining away a story he acknowledges was very poorly received.

And on tops of all that, King has a pretty much stellar career, with the only things tarnishing it being HiC and the reaction to the Bat-Wedding. The latter has pretty much died out by now (I think), but HiC is a different animal and I bet he's actually hoping for DC to just retcon the fuck out of it and for it to never be spoken about again.

God, I really do hope you're right......

I'm way more of a pragmatist than Bored, ever trying to push his positive outlook, and even I say he could be right here.

Jim is taking the reigns in some pretty turbulent times: he might want to regain and retain readers trust, which may be accomplished by pacifying the kind of conflict these fanboy wars of ours generate. We'll see,

[manwhohaseverything]

I don't care if it looks like kid flash or what not. I want the hair out. Just change the mask to make it more like batman's. Isn't that wally's signature?

Basically, this with hair out.

[Lee]

I'm not married to the shiny suit at all, but this arguments don't hold water.

Again, DickBats wore a BatSuit that had slightly different gloves and belt. No confusion. Same would be true here: any section of the 90's suit, no matter how close, is different from Barry's suit. It could be done if they wanted to.

If you showed someone a picture of the Barry Allen Flash and a picture of the 1990s Wally West Flash, they'd assume them to be the same character.

That was desirable for DC when Wally was the replacement. Same super-hero, different secret identity.

It is not desirable for DC when the two co-exist side-by-side as two different super-heroes, just as it wasn't desirable for Dick Grayson and Bruce Wayne to co-exist as two Batmans long term.

I fundamentally disagree with this impenetrable, inside baseball approach. Different characters should immediately be recognisable as different characters to the uninitiated.

Second, artists don't just "get details wrong": there's some leeway for artistic interpretation when it's known that it won't cause problems or confusion. So, when Wally was the only Flash his belt was sometimes an M, sometimes a V, and that was fine. Scott Kolins draws Barry with the straight belt today and that's fine as well.

But when things get a little more dicey, editorial usually steps in and makes sure everyone is on model: we didn't ever see enough of DickBats wearing the wrong gloves or Kal-L and Kal-El with the same S-Crest.

In this very thread we've seen people get angry, and take it very personally, when these mistakes happen, whether it's a red haired Barry Allen, a blue eyed Wally West, a Barry Allen with white eye lenses, the wrong shape lightning bolt emblem, and so on. People were mad about the Flash #750 1990s cover getting Wally's costume wrong. People were also disgruntled about the Flash #750 2000s cover getting Wally's costume "wrong" - even though it actually got it 100% right, which goes to show that even the hardcore fans on the message boards can't keep the track of the minor differences.

Like you said, Scott Kolins draws the belt straight on Barry Allen's New 52/Rebirth suit. He also puts wings on the boots. Even though those features are off-model for that version of the suit, and contradict how all the other artists on the book draw it. On the cover for one of the Flashpoint tie-ins, Brett Booth drew Barry with Wally's belt, when someone commented on it he said he did it intentionally because it "looked cooler".

If the only differences between the two characters are the boots/belt/eyes, the artists will continue to get those details wrong, intentionally or unintentionally.

[WallyWestFlash]

Questions for Wally fans.

Do you consider Kadabra more as a Wally nemesis now instead of Barry?

Do you think Kadabra can be considered Wally’s arch nemesis along with Zolomon?

Pretty much what most people alreday said here. Classic trickster type Kadabra in the white three piece suit is Barry's villain. But the later crazy, sadistic, ruin your life Kadabra is a Wally villain. He started out as a Barry villain and one of his main recurring villains but hes also had too much of an impact and effect on Wally to disregard him there as well.

As for arch nemesis I wouldnt think so. He would definitely be one of those that when he appears you go "oh man. Things are about to go down!" But not the arch enemy. I would have loved for Savitar to have been Wallys big bad but in reality its probably Zoom.

I don't care if it looks like kid flash or what not. I want the hair out. Just change the mask to make it more like batman's. Isn't that wally's signature?

Basically, this with hair out.

That's an awesome suit. Is this the first place where they gave Wally his silver instead of gold look?