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  1. #961
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    That particular rule can and should be broken in very specific cases (see, again: DickBats).
    Dick Grayson and Bruce Wayne as Batman simultaneously was never built to last. If you showed a typical comics fan a picture of the Dick Grayson version of Batman, only the most fringe, hardcore fan would be able to identify it as Dick Grayson. A typical comics fan could identify a Jay Garrick Flash, a Guy Gardner Green Lantern, a Miles Morales Spider-Man.

  2. #962
    Wally 'Ginger' West fan
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    He does need a distinct costume and it must be more than just a belt/face mask change. Always hated the fact that when the two ran together after Barry's return, the artists would often draw them with one of their arms up (thus covering the belt design) and that was very frustrating to me. Then there are the scenes were both are facing full away from the reader. There should be clear differences at all angles so that no matter what the daylight scene is you can easily say "oh, that is Barry" or "Yep, that is Wally."

    I'm okay with red and silver rather than gold. Silver to me is closer to actual lightning than the color gold is and I always think 'lightning bolt/s' for The Flashes.

    ((Also... no capes. We all have seen the humor stories of what happens to cape wearers who do not have near immortality like Superman. ))
    Parental care is way exhausting. Gained insight into what my parents went through when I was a baby. Not fun, but what ya gonna do? (Read comics, obviously.)

  3. #963
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Dick Grayson and Bruce Wayne as Batman simultaneously was never built to last.
    Dick was the exclusive Batman for a year, then was Batman for another year alongside Bruce, and would have been for another year had the New 52 not shat on INC. You give Wally that kind of treatment for 3 years, he's good for anything after. Instead, it has been four years with multiple crappy directions meant to "differentiate" him from Barry, and we remain with the same problem as ever.

    This path doesn't work.

    If you showed a typical comics fan a picture of the Dick Grayson version of Batman, only the most fringe, hardcore fan would be able to identify it as Dick Grayson.
    You don't know that. I don't know that. Jim Lee doesn't know that. People should really stop speaking for the "Typical comics fan" or the "majority of the fanbase" or whatever. It's a made-up, unsubstantiated notion used to add weight to arguments. Each person is their own and we don't know what they know or don't.

    Regardless, even if you're right about this particular point, so what? DickBats worked. Pacemaker Wally didn't.

    A typical comics fan could identify a Jay Garrick Flash, a Guy Gardner Green Lantern, a Miles Morales Spider-Man.
    Yeah, and it seems you're ignoring when I said:

    All that said, this is not a defense of the shiny suit for today. My only point is that it could be done successfully, and it can, but I'm on board with Wally having a unique look. Just nothing outside of the crimson gold, without a centered insignia, cowl-less or bootless. 'Cause he's the Flash.
    Or when I said the same thing with other words right bellow to see if it would connect:

    Regardless, as I said earlier in the same post you quoted: that's fine. Giving Wally an unique look is ok. Removing him from the Flash iconography is not.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

    To do spoiler tags, use [ spoil ] at the start of the sentence and [ /spoil ] at the end, without the spaces. You're welcome!

  4. #964
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    It may come from a little bit of goodness as well. Lee may just go "you know what? Why don't we stop acting like dicks and see how it goes?", because he is nice like that.
    I've also heard Jim Lee is a mensch, but he's also a pretty shrewd businessman. Hopefully, both of those aspects come into play in the coming months when it comes to Wally West.

  5. #965
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    Forget the gold. The silver trim is awesome.

  6. #966
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Dick was the exclusive Batman for a year, then was Batman for another year alongside Bruce, and would have been for another year had the New 52 not shat on INC. You give Wally that kind of treatment for 3 years, he's good for anything after. Instead, it has been four years with multiple crappy directions meant to "differentiate" him from Barry, and we remain with the same problem as ever.
    I've not been talking about story or character direction. I've been talking about whether Wally reverting to his '90s costume would be a good idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    You don't know that. I don't know that. Jim Lee doesn't know that. People should really stop speaking for the "Typical comics fan" or the "majority of the fanbase" or whatever. It's a made-up, unsubstantiated notion used to add weight to arguments. Each person is their own and we don't know what they know or don't.
    I think you're kidding yourself if you think Dick Grayson's Batman costume is instantly recognisable as Dick Grayson.

    I think it's fair to say that it's easier to recognise Homer Simpson and Bart Simpson as separate characters, Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck as separate characters, than it is to recognise a Bruce Wayne Batman and the Dick Grayson Batman as separate characters.

    Batman has had several small costume tweaks and changes throughout the decades and in different mediums. The broad strokes are the same. They're all recognisably the same character. Nothing about the design of the Dick Grayson Batman screams "this one is a separate character".

    That's what I'm talking about here. Instant, immediate recognisability as a separate character.

    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Regardless, even if you're right about this particular point, so what? DickBats worked. Pacemaker Wally didn't.
    I've not been talking about Wally's pacemaker. I've been talking about whether Wally reverting to his '90s costume would be a good idea. I don't think Dick Grayson Batman succeeded as something that could function long-term alongside the Bruce Wayne Batman, as a distinct and separate character within the Batman IP.

    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Yeah, and it seems you're ignoring when I said:

    All that said, this is not a defense of the shiny suit for today. My only point is that it could be done successfully, and it can, but I'm on board with Wally having a unique look. Just nothing outside of the crimson gold, without a centered insignia, cowl-less or bootless. 'Cause he's the Flash.

    Or when I said the same thing with other words right bellow to see if it would connect:

    Regardless, as I said earlier in the same post you quoted: that's fine. Giving Wally an unique look is ok. Removing him from the Flash iconography is not.
    Yes, I saw that. You're playing devil's advocate for something you don't actually want (Wally back in his '90s costume).

    Why put that devil's advocate argument out there if you don't want anyone to respond to it?

  7. #967
    Fantastic Member Dr. Ellingham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    i'll be brief: This costume rules. Somebody should wear it. Don't care who. Thank you.

  8. #968
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Ellingham View Post
    i'll be brief: This costume rules. Somebody should wear it. Don't care who. Thank you.
    Jai West maybe

  9. #969
    Astonishing Member WallyWestFlash's Avatar
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    My name is Wally West. I"m the fastest man alive. I"m the Flash.

    Favorite Heroes - 1-Flash/Wally West, 2-Superman, 3-Green Lantern/Hal Jordan, 4-Nightwing, 5-Hawkman, 6-Firestorm, 7-Supergirl/Linda Danvers, 8-Zatanna, 9-Robin/Tim Drake.

    Currently Reading: All Star Comics, Justice League of America (Satalite years era), Huntress ('89 series)

  10. #970
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallyWestFlash View Post
    Wally West, the charmer .

  11. #971
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    I've not been talking about story or character direction. I've been talking about whether Wally reverting to his '90s costume would be a good idea.
    Those things don't exist in a vacuum. Let me put it this way: you put Wally in his 90's duds and treat him like Dick was treated back then for about 3 years, he's in a strong position for stuff to get tweaked,

    I think you're kidding yourself if you think Dick Grayson's Batman costume is instantly recognisable as Dick Grayson.

    I think it's fair to say that it's easier to recognise Homer Simpson and Bart Simpson as separate characters, Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck as separate characters, than it is to recognise a Bruce Wayne Batman and the Dick Grayson Batman as separate characters.

    Batman has had several small costume tweaks and changes throughout the decades and in different mediums. The broad strokes are the same. They're all recognisably the same character. Nothing about the design of the Dick Grayson Batman screams "this one is a separate character".
    i don't think that. But right now that's the absolute least important thing on the table. Wally needs to look and be treated as The Flash. If the only way to do this is to make him too similar to Barry, it's not a problem if dealt with correctly.

    That's what I'm talking about here. Instant, immediate recognisability as a separate character.
    And it matters way less than instant, immediate recognisability as the Flash.

    I've not been talking about Wally's pacemaker. I've been talking about whether Wally reverting to his '90s costume would be a good idea. I don't think Dick Grayson Batman succeeded as something that could function long-term alongside the Bruce Wayne Batman, as a distinct and separate character within the Batman IP.
    It sold lots of comics, the majority of people seem to think it elevated the character, the mythology created them mostly carried over. It worked as it was getting done, and left things better after.

    Yes, I saw that. You're playing devil's advocate for something you don't actually want (Wally back in his '90s costume).

    Why put that devil's advocate argument out there if you don't want anyone to respond to it?
    I don't care if people respond to it, I mind everything else being ignored to make it seem I made a point that I actually didn't.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

    To do spoiler tags, use [ spoil ] at the start of the sentence and [ /spoil ] at the end, without the spaces. You're welcome!

  12. #972
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    i don't think that. But right now that's the absolute least important thing on the table. Wally needs to look and be treated as The Flash. If the only way to do this is to make him too similar to Barry, it's not a problem if dealt with correctly.
    I disagree with the premise. I don't think it is the only way. I think Wally could be treated as "The Flash" as much as Jay Garrick is and look as different from Barry as Jay Garrick does. I think having near-identical characters co-existing is hostile to the uninitiated and looks bad on the page. I think Wally is in a stronger position if he has a costume that's a fresher and more exciting version of The Flash, like Batman Beyond and Spider-Gwen. I think if Batman Beyond had a cape and a black/grey/yellow colour scheme, because that's how Batman has to look, he'd have made less of an impact. I think if Spider-Gwen had a red/blue colour scheme, no hood and more webs, because that's what a "Spider-Man" has to look like, then she'd have made less of an impact.

  13. #973
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    I disagree with the premise. I don't think it is the only way. I think Wally could be treated as "The Flash" as much as Jay Garrick is and look as different from Barry as Jay Garrick does. I think having near-identical characters co-existing is hostile to the uninitiated and looks bad on the page. I think Wally is in a stronger position if he has a costume that's a fresher and more exciting version of The Flash, like Batman Beyond and Spider-Gwen. I think if Batman Beyond had a cape and a black/grey/yellow colour scheme, because that's how Batman has to look, he'd have made less of an impact. I think if Spider-Gwen had a red/blue colour scheme, no hood and more webs, because that's what a "Spider-Man" has to look like, then she'd have made less of an impact.
    Yes to this.

  14. #974
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Wally's in more of a Miles situation then a Terry/Gwen situation.

  15. #975
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    Miles Morales' character design is also immediately different, though it doesn't have the "wow" factor of the symbiote costume Spider-Man, for example.

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