Wally West: The Flash Appreciation 2020

[Jekyll]

Interview with Didio on why he hated Wally and Dick.

NRAMA:You drew a fair amount of fan heat for being the guy who theoretically hated Dick Grayson or Wally West. Is this indeed the case? Or was it just pro wrestling, drawing heel heat?

DiDio: A lot of it was for show. It was theater. We used to do the conventions and we used to have people worked up about Dick Grayson and Wally West, so we fed into that energy. Anytime I go to a convention and we talk about character, I consider that a win.

So much of the conversation nowadays is not about character or story anymore, which is a shame, because that's the only conversation that should be taking place.

For me, Wally West was a core concept issue. My problem with Wally was that his origin was always dependent on [his uncle and previous Flash] Barry Allen. He was never his own character. He was always going to be subservient to Barry in some way because his origin was determined by Barry. There was always a Flash in front of him and his powers were because of him. I always felt, as a true Flash, if we were trying to get to the simplest form with regards to media and things like that, we had to go back to Barry because the story starts with him.


With [original Robin] Dick Grayson — and this is the same with Wally — people loved them because they aged with them, so they feel this affinity that these guys have grown up with them. The problem is that much like Batman and Superman, now Dick Grayson and Wally West have to stop aging, because they're going to pass their mentors. Dick Grayson's going to get older than Bruce Wayne at some point, because Bruce doesn't age and Dick Grayson's going to be the older guy if he does keep growing up. Therefore, those things constantly force the reboots that we're faced with, because it creates these log jams and these multiple interpretations of characters all sharing the same name.

Ultimately, in my mind, we kept on collapsing our timelines and created confusion about how long certain characters were in certain roles, and what they did in those roles. For me, with Dick Grayson, the issue wasn't about the fact that I didn't like the character. In fact, when I said we should kill Dick Grayson, it was purely story driven.

Incredibly ignorant and if it wasn’t 2020 would have been one of the dumber things I had heard all year.

[Kyer]

Interview with Didio on why he hated Wally and Dick.

DiDio: A lot of it was for show. It was theater. We used to do the conventions and we used to have people worked up about Dick Grayson and Wally West, so we fed into that energy. Anytime I go to a convention and we talk about character, I consider that a win.

If anything, that excuse just infuriates me more. You riled people up on purpose for theater. You jerk.

For me, Wally West was a core concept issue. My problem with Wally was that his origin was always dependent on [his uncle and previous Flash] Barry Allen. He was never his own character. He was always going to be subservient to Barry in some way because his origin was determined by Barry. There was always a Flash in front of him and his powers were because of him. I always felt, as a true Flash, if we were trying to get to the simplest form with regards to media and things like that, we had to go back to Barry because the story starts with him.

And Barry learned from Jay's legacy. Maybe he should have pedestaled Jay then? What difference does it make? It is not the origin, but the character and the stories that matter. Origin just one story told.

With [original Robin] Dick Grayson — and this is the same with Wally — people loved them because they aged with them, so they feel this affinity that these guys have grown up with them. The problem is that much like Batman and Superman, now Dick Grayson and Wally West have to stop aging, because they're going to pass their mentors. Dick Grayson's going to get older than Bruce Wayne at some point, because Bruce doesn't age and Dick Grayson's going to be the older guy if he does keep growing up. Therefore, those things constantly force the reboots that we're faced with, because it creates these log jams and these multiple interpretations of characters all sharing the same name.

Ultimately, in my mind, we kept on collapsing our timelines and created confusion about how long certain characters were in certain roles, and what they did in those roles. For me, with Dick Grayson, the issue wasn't about the fact that I didn't like the character. In fact, when I said we should kill Dick Grayson, it was purely story driven.

I didn't age with Wally West. I was a full-grown woman by a lot of years when I first encountered Wally West. Learning Wally's true origin was the third trade I purchased and read. All knowing his origin did was made me want to read some Barry to find out more why Wally loved him so much. It was and is Wally's personality that I fell for. (And the red hair, but really, that actually came later as I started with the cartoon show's second incarnation and his hair color was just a perk.)

Dealing with aging characters is not that big a deal especially considering Speedsters. See Jay. Speedforce slowed aging. DCU is a place with magic. Mix in some imagination and problems solved. Its comics, for Christ's sake. Fantasy, not some Science journal.

His attitude also explains his dislike of marriage and parent figures? Yeesh. So glad Didio is gone to other endeavors.

[Hol]

So many things wrong here. Ugh Dan...

So what if you can't tell Wally's story without Barry? You can't tell Hal Jordans story without Abin Sur? There is no reason Wally could not have been the Flash across all media. Look at Ant Man's success in movies. Can't tell the story without Hank Pym? Dan's thought process is so uncreative. And BS in my opinion. In fact Wally's story and origin made him more unique than any other superhero in the lead. He was the only sidekick to pick up the mantle for good. (20 + years at that point sure felt like for good at least)

And no we don't like Wally because we aged with him. We like Wally because he is the most well written, fleshed out, interesting Flash character ever. I could see he preferred Barry because he grew up with him and that would probably be a truer statement since Barry was written like every other here back then.

[Dred]

It's fundamentally stupid. Wally being inspired by the death of his uncle doesn't have to be any more complicated than Peter Parker and Uncle Ben. But Didio has a craw up his ass for origin stories that adapt to other media.

You can obviously tell Wally's story in any media. Because it's a great story. Dan just didn't see the value in that story itself and instead justifies his value with a half assed excuse that makes a sort of sense if you believe that no one can write creatively. Which is maybe how Dan sees the world.

[Spider-Ham]

It's fundamentally stupid. Wally being inspired by the death of his uncle doesn't have to be any more complicated than Peter Parker and Uncle Ben. But Didio has a craw up his ass for origin stories that adapt to other media.

You can obviously tell Wally's story in any media. Because it's a great story. Dan just didn't see the value in that story itself and instead justifies his value with a half assed excuse that makes a sort of sense if you believe that no one can write creatively. Which is maybe how Dan sees the world.

Thank you.

Yet, Didio isn’t wrong (if we forget Wally and Barry basically have the same origin story). Barry Allen was/is the simplest form of The Flash. So simple they had to change everything about the character and he’s now barely recognizable.

I know we complain a lot about Wally’s fate, but, seriously, the one who was the most impacted, and in a really bad way, by Barry’s return, is Barry himself.

[Frontier]

Too much death inspiring Flashes these days, come to think of it...

[Hol]

It's fundamentally stupid. Wally being inspired by the death of his uncle doesn't have to be any more complicated than Peter Parker and Uncle Ben. But Didio has a craw up his ass for origin stories that adapt to other media.

You can obviously tell Wally's story in any media. Because it's a great story. Dan just didn't see the value in that story itself and instead justifies his value with a half assed excuse that makes a sort of sense if you believe that no one can write creatively. Which is maybe how Dan sees the world.

BINGO! You nailed it.

I also think this is funny since DC itself is now doing Stargirl, a show about Legacy.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Thank you.

Yet, Didio isn’t wrong (if we forget Wally and Barry basically have the same origin story). Barry Allen was/is the simplest form of The Flash. So simple they had to change everything about the character and he’s now barely recognizable.

I know we complain a lot about Wally’s fate, but, seriously, the one who was the most impacted, and in a really bad way, by Barry’s return, is Barry himself.

IMO, the issue with Barry, and to a lesser extent Hal, is that they were products of their time. You get powers, either you become a hero or villain, no further characterization needed.

So on paper, Barry comes across as someone with little to no motivation. And while yes, some people do good because is good, its also pretty boring and not compelling. Barry's just...there.

Wally, in contrast, has a motivation of living up to an ideal. And hey, I kinda liked that he could be a jerk

[godisawesome]

IMO, the issue with Barry, and to a lesser extent Hal, is that they were products of their time. You get powers, either you become a hero or villain, no further characterization needed.

So on paper, Barry comes across as someone with little to no motivation. And while yes, some people do good because is good, its also pretty boring and not compelling. Barry's just...there.

Wally, in contrast, has a motivation of living up to an ideal. And hey, I kinda liked that he could be a jerk

I think that’s an excellent way to view it. Wally arguably was a unique superhero because of how well his character embraced and ran with the idea of a legacy as a burden and challenge - as much as I like the CW Flash’s season 1 story with their version fo Reverse Flash, it doesn’t have the same triumphant “hell yeah!” aspect of Wally finally pushing past his psychosomatic limits and going full Flash to defend Barry’s legacy and forge his own against Reverse Flash there... something that can only be done with the legacy aspect, and that Barry can’t replicate.

Now, I’d say that Barry did get a characterization assigned to him after his death and before his return - he was already a somewhat geeky nice-guy well before EVS lobbied for his return - but there is that kind of detail that it can sometimes feel like since the Post-Crisis followed on the heels of the greater emphasis on high quality writing from the Bronze Age and continued that creative aspect, a lot of the Silver Age characters are less defined and developed compared to their Post-Crisis iterations.

I’d also add that Didio complaining about the conversation not being about character or story anymore a bit false - there’s been plenty of talk about character and story... it’s just that a lot of it was “This sucks”/“doesn’t have the same quality as before”/“is a bad retread” because one of the side-effects of a reboot is pushing creators to reboot everything *now,* while also having a set-up that almost demands either retelling classic tale story creating counterparts to them... and inevitably, in that situation, you’re going to have more than a few inferior and unnecessary duds.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Heh... I've been saying what he said (sometimes in a less polite form) for over a decade in this boards.

We all knew that, all the evidence and interviews and gossip and leaked fights and whatever were always consistent with what he's saying now and I (and many others) have always said here and in other places. It's a shame that most people that that countered this points with "I understand business and you don't", "He's just trying his best", "You just like being negative", etc have moved on from the boards. Not because I wanted some validation or anything, but because it would be really funny to see the gymnastics they'd do to defend those points.

That said, it's not the first (or fifth) time that an interviewer tries to back Didio into a corner and make him admit that the treatment of Wally and others was a mistake, and he just won't budge. Good for him! Stick to your guns, Dan!

But at this point, none of that really matters. Didio has no power anymore, whatever damage he did is already done and what we're left with is not knowing if the current TPTB will try to fix it, amend it, or make it worse. But I do believe that they'll try to fix it: Lee is way more of a pacifier and crowd pleaser than Didio, DC needs to work on their image, etc. So fans of mistreated characters, if I keep being right, now is the time to have a little bit of hope.

(I do have a hunch that it will take a while for us to see Roy again, though, but one can't have everything)

[Frontier]

IMO, the issue with Barry, and to a lesser extent Hal, is that they were products of their time. You get powers, either you become a hero or villain, no further characterization needed.

So on paper, Barry comes across as someone with little to no motivation. And while yes, some people do good because is good, its also pretty boring and not compelling. Barry's just...there.

Wally, in contrast, has a motivation of living up to an ideal. And hey, I kinda liked that he could be a jerk

I think this focus on over-complicating people's Superhero motivations has done this franchise more harm then good. Even DCAU Wally didn't have that aspect.

I think that’s an excellent way to view it. Wally arguably was a unique superhero because of how well his character embraced and ran with the idea of a legacy as a burden and challenge - as much as I like the CW Flash’s season 1 story with their version fo Reverse Flash, it doesn’t have the same triumphant “hell yeah!” aspect of Wally finally pushing past his psychosomatic limits and going full Flash to defend Barry’s legacy and forge his own against Reverse Flash there... something that can only be done with the legacy aspect, and that Barry can’t replicate.

I mean, I got that same feeling when Flash came back and broke Thawne's time bubble in the season 1 finale, but to each their own .

[married guy]

Thank you.

Yet, Didio isn’t wrong (if we forget Wally and Barry basically have the same origin story). Barry Allen was/is the simplest form of The Flash. So simple they had to change everything about the character and he’s now barely recognizable.

I know we complain a lot about Wally’s fate, but, seriously, the one who was the most impacted, and in a really bad way, by Barry’s return, is Barry himself.

That's spot on.
The Barry Allen that came back after Flash: Rebirth didn't resemble Barry Allen at all!
No love of science. No Flash Facts. No interaction with his hero Jay or nephew Wally. No interest in his grandson.
And then, writers began grafting everything linked to Wally onto Barry, making the fuckery of Wally West ever more thorough!
I have not been a big fan of the return at all!

[Drako]

Even with if someone actually belive his excuses for not liking Wally and Dick, there is no point for him to screw these characters like the way he did.

What happened with Wally in Heroes in Crisis was not a matter of "I think his origin it's too dependet of Barry's." It was straight up a character assassination.

Didio can try to spin any way he wants, doesn't change this fact.

[Kyer]

That's spot on.
The Barry Allen that came back after Flash: Rebirth didn't resemble Barry Allen at all!
No love of science. No Flash Facts. No interaction with his hero Jay or nephew Wally. No interest in his grandson.
And then, writers began grafting everything linked to Wally onto Barry, making the fuckery of Wally West ever more thorough!
I have not been a big fan of the return at all!

I would have been very happy to have met the Barry Allen that Mark Waid depicted and that was my expectation in April 2009. Man, what a letdown Flash:Rebirth was... and it only went downhill --scratch that-- over the cliff after that.

[Waterfall]

Didio got booted. There is no reason to talk about him for 3 pages anymore. He’s not worth it.