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  1. #1351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Weisman kept using Wally for a purpose, and I don't think it was *just* to reinforce the sense of loss the rest of the Team felt.
    Probably the same reason they killed him off the way they did: to exploit his popularity for cheap reactions.

    The funny thing is it all came across as disingenuous because none of those characters were ever shown to really care about Wally in a meaningful way. I mean, Artemis' talk with Bart at the end of season two was way more significant than any moment she had with Wally from her side of things.

    But Wally retiring *does* have precedent. That's the only point I was making.
    Well, sure, but the situation is quite different.

    And it would be one thing if those involved with the show simply acknowledged the failings of the character. Instead Weisman wants people to view him as a better hero (in terms of heroic nature) than Barry and Bart while the show constantly showed that wasn't the case.

  2. #1352
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rend20 View Post
    Probably the same reason they killed him off the way they did: to exploit his popularity for cheap reactions.
    And his return, if it happens, will also be to exploit his popularity for cheap reasons. The reasons behind a thing matter a lot less than the thing itself.

    Well, sure, but the situation is quite different.
    >shrug< adaptations. They do the same stuff for different reasons all the time. Basically all an adaptation is.

    And it would be one thing if those involved with the show simply acknowledged the failings of the character. Instead Weisman wants people to view him as a better hero (in terms of heroic nature) than Barry and Bart while the show constantly showed that wasn't the case.
    Martyrdom. Same thing happened to Barry for twenty five years when he was dead. Barry became a saint in everyone's memory but the character himself didn't really deserve such lofty elevation.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

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  3. #1353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    >shrug< adaptations. They do the same stuff for different reasons all the time. Basically all an adaptation is.
    But expecting it to make sense within the adaptation isn't that outrageous, is it? The retirement would have been fine if the story supported it.

    Martyrdom. Same thing happened to Barry for twenty five years when he was dead. Barry became a saint in everyone's memory but the character himself didn't really deserve such lofty elevation.
    I don't really recall the likes of Waid and Messner-Loebs talking about Barry in such a way in interviews. Both even acknowledged Barry wasn't quite as perfect as Wally remembers him as being in some of them. Weisman genuinely believes Wally's heroic nature was displayed as the character's strength throughout the series.

  4. #1354
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    And he might not return at all. Other than Halo I don't recall the show really doing the resurrection thing like comics are wont to do. But I don't think Wally was brought up as much as he was in season 3 just for kicks, either. They had that whole "will they/won't they" with Artemis and Roy; a whole episode focused around Artemis missing Wally wasn't necessary for that subplot. Wally didn't have to be mentioned at all in the Beast Boy episode, much less narrate the whole thing. Dick didn't have to hallucinate those conversations with Wally. Weisman kept using Wally for a purpose, and I don't think it was *just* to reinforce the sense of loss the rest of the Team felt. Maybe Wally stays dead (it'd be a novel concept for superheroes at this point) but if he does return? Won't surprise me in the least.
    I think Weisman is a stickler for "dead is dead," which I can accept but I feel negatively impacts Wally in this instance.

  5. #1355
    Mighty Member TheSupernaut's Avatar
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    I think you guys are being a little harsh on YJ Wally. His characterization I thought was fairly good, especially when you consider the Mike Baron and Moesner-Loebs eras of his character. I figured his retirement in season 2 had everything to do with whatever happened in between the timeskip. Fact is however, when it counted the most, he stepped up. I think you guys are asking a lot of a 15-21 year old version of the character. And I also might add, that Wally was a pretty big jerk in the comics for a long time.

  6. #1356
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSupernaut View Post
    I think you guys are being a little harsh on YJ Wally. His characterization I thought was fairly good, especially when you consider the Mike Baron and Moesner-Loebs eras of his character. I figured his retirement in season 2 had everything to do with whatever happened in between the timeskip. Fact is however, when it counted the most, he stepped up. I think you guys are asking a lot of a 15-21 year old version of the character. And I also might add, that Wally was a pretty big jerk in the comics for a long time.
    I'm not saying the show got Wally wrong from a characterization standpoint, they just ended up not using him nearly as well as they could have. Especially with his pedigree.

  7. #1357
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rend20 View Post
    But expecting it to make sense within the adaptation isn't that outrageous, is it? The retirement would have been fine if the story supported it.
    Of course not, but a teenager deciding he doesn't want to risk his life, or do something with it that doesn't involve punching people, isn't outrageous.

    If the retirement happened just as season 1 ended then I'd agree it was a weird shift because Wally's character wasn't aimed in that direction at all. But there's five years unaccounted for in the mix, a lot can happen in that time and a kid can change his mind. At worst, Weisman failed to show us why Wally made the decision and I don't feel like that is a huge deal. A missed opportunity and the additional details would've been nice to have but aren't really necessary to the story.

    And I agree with Supernaut, y'all are being kinda harsh. Wally was a immature douche most of the time, but he always stepped up when called on. He's more heroic than M'gann; that crazy bitch mind wipes people left and right! Comics Wally spent plenty of time as a immature douche too before becoming the reliable Everyman we know and love today. Weisman built his own Wally but he used all the same parts.

    I do agree with Frontier that they didn't use him as well as they could have, and arguably should have. If I'm being honest I wish the show had stayed focused on the core group, because watching them grow up would've been more interesting to me than exploring the new guys (even though I really like the new guys...except Lagoon Boy).
    Last edited by Ascended; 07-18-2020 at 07:57 AM.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  8. #1358
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSupernaut View Post
    His characterization I thought was fairly good, especially when you consider the Mike Baron and Moesner-Loebs eras of his character.
    The difference is both Baron and Messner-Loebs acknowledged Wally was a jerk during those runs. Weisman consistently dismisses any such claims about their version of the character. My criticism mostly revolves around how Weisman says the character should be seen rather than what we actually got on-screen.

    Fact is however, when it counted the most, he stepped up.
    I wouldn't call Wally being shown to do nothing for those he didn't know during the invasion as stepping up. Assisting his own family at the end was nice, but his lack of concern for those he didn't know wasn't exactly flattering for a hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    If the retirement happened just as season 1 ended then I'd agree it was a weird shift because Wally's character wasn't aimed in that direction at all. But there's five years unaccounted for in the mix, a lot can happen in that time and a kid can change his mind.
    It isn't the missing five years that's the issue.

    It's that his entire arc in season one led to the show saying he matured and would be a better hero going forward. Having him retire and sit on the sidelines hardly shows he became a better hero. If they take out his character episodes in season one, then his retirement would have been fine with me. But I felt they ended up throwing out what little development he had for the retirement.
    Last edited by Rend20; 07-18-2020 at 08:14 AM.

  9. #1359
    Mighty Member TheSupernaut's Avatar
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    Changing the subject a bit, but how would you guys feel if DC ended up changing Linda's occupation entirely? I kind of hate how certain fans see her as a lesser reporter than both Lois Lane and Iris West. Are there any other careers you guys could imagine that'd be just as exciting?

  10. #1360
    Extraordinary Member Drako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think Weisman is a stickler for "dead is dead," which I can accept but I feel negatively impacts Wally in this instance.
    Well... Jason Todd died and came back.

    The weird thing about his death is that he disappeared. Why? The concept of Speed Force wasn't introduced in the show, so why making him disappear?
    It's very strange and no one in the team even talk about it.

  11. #1361
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Of course not, but a teenager deciding he doesn't want to risk his life, or do something with it that doesn't involve punching people, isn't outrageous.

    If the retirement happened just as season 1 ended then I'd agree it was a weird shift because Wally's character wasn't aimed in that direction at all. But there's five years unaccounted for in the mix, a lot can happen in that time and a kid can change his mind. At worst, Weisman failed to show us why Wally made the decision and I don't feel like that is a huge deal. A missed opportunity and the additional details would've been nice to have but aren't really necessary to the story.

    And I agree with Supernaut, y'all are being kinda harsh. Wally was a immature douche most of the time, but he always stepped up when called on. He's more heroic than M'gann; that crazy bitch mind wipes people left and right! Comics Wally spent plenty of time as a immature douche too before becoming the reliable Everyman we know and love today. Weisman built his own Wally but he used all the same parts.

    I do agree with Frontier that they didn't use him as well as they could have, and arguably should have. If I'm being honest I wish the show had stayed focused on the core group, because watching them grow up would've been more interesting to me than exploring the new guys (even though I really like the new guys...except Lagoon Boy).
    The reason Wally is great in the comics is something that doesn't exist in the show because he's DEAD. If you stop Wally at his immature Wolfman era self then he's a shitty character. I'm not sure how we're using that aspect of his tenure, the worst aspect of his development as a character, as a justification for the show. Very few of us here would be Wally fans if that's all we had to work with.

    Also the idea that Wally's characterization was true to a 5 year time skip we got to see absolutely none of isn't really encouraging. Offscreen characterization is not characterization.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSupernaut View Post
    Changing the subject a bit, but how would you guys feel if DC ended up changing Linda's occupation entirely? I kind of hate how certain fans see her as a lesser reporter than both Lois Lane and Iris West. Are there any other careers you guys could imagine that'd be just as exciting?
    It doesn't matter. Linda will never get main love interest screen time again so whatever pittance she gets will just be as "Wally's wife" rather than getting her own characterization to matter. This is something that only would matter in a Wally solo book. If Wally is ever prominent again it will be in a team book and love interests don't matter in team books unless it's in the team. Which is why they did that awful Wally/Donna teaser way back in Rebirth era Titans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    Well... Jason Todd died and came back.

    The weird thing about his death is that he disappeared. Why? The concept of Speed Force wasn't introduced in the show, so why making him disappear?
    It's very strange and no one in the team even talk about it.
    Jason Todd never died in the show (only in the time ski). And his death is not important to his character or the show in and of itself -- his revival is. Like there's no larger, important, impactful lesson on the main cast for Jason Todd's death outside of a little bit of Dick being worried for Tim. Wally's death is there to stoke angst in the team by being "important" to them but being expendable enough to be killed. People wonder why he was so irrelevant in season 2 and the reason is because they don't want to kill off someone important to the story. Wally is not important. He's a love interest. And he got put in the fridge.
    Last edited by Dred; 07-18-2020 at 02:04 PM.

  12. #1362
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rend20 View Post
    My criticism mostly revolves around how Weisman says the character should be seen rather than what we actually got on-screen
    Ah, well I've never seen an interview so I got nothin on that. Is this like the Russo's saying Hulk was sick of Banner's crap in Infinity War when on screen he just looked scared?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSupernaut View Post
    Changing the subject a bit, but how would you guys feel if DC ended up changing Linda's occupation entirely? I kind of hate how certain fans see her as a lesser reporter than both Lois Lane and Iris West. Are there any other careers you guys could imagine that'd be just as exciting?
    I'd be fine with it. Honestly, I never liked that she was a reporter in the first place. Not because she's a lesser reporter, but because the idea of the journalist love interest is so common, especially among older characters. I'd like to see her pursue the medical degree and become a practicing doctor, but any career is fine really, including journalism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    Also the idea that Wally's characterization was true to a 5 year time skip we got to see absolutely none of isn't really encouraging. Offscreen characterization is not characterization.
    It's not, but it provides a buffer. My old literary analysis professor used to say the only evidence is on the page, and to that end Wally fails in YJ because his season 2 arc is so wildly off target from what season 1 set up. But the five year jump sort of counters it; we don't know what happened in that time so retirement is neither on target or missing it; we don't have the evidence on the screen to say either way. All we can say is that it's out of character for a five year out-dated model. It's kind of a mistrial, I guess?

    I'm not defending how Wally was treated so much as just pointing out that there's precedent in the source material and the retirement isn't necessarily out of character. Sort of like the Hulk thing I mentioned above; the overall Infinity War-Endgame journey might've been a valid choice for the character arc, but the execution and not seeing it unfold sucks.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  13. #1363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Ah, well I've never seen an interview so I got nothin on that. Is this like the Russo's saying Hulk was sick of Banner's crap in Infinity War when on screen he just looked scared?
    Something like that.

    He's frequently mentioned Wally's humanity and heroic outlook was the "strength" of the character. But for me, it's hard to buy considering the show had him do things like prioritize impressing M'gann over finding Kent Nelson, view delivering the heart as not being a real mission, and is nowhere to be seen during an alien invasion throughout the series.

    It's like how Weisman is shocked people feel Wally was shown up/embarrassed in "Bloodlines" despite the show hitting us over the head with it over and over again. A lot of his takes on their version of Wally seemingly rely on the viewer ignoring the actual substance provided and/or latching onto isolated moments over the whole body of work.

  14. #1364
    Astonishing Member WallyWestFlash's Avatar
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    Speed Metal.

    20200719_084954.jpg
    My name is Wally West. I"m the fastest man alive. I"m the Flash.

    Favorite Heroes - 1-Flash/Wally West, 2-Superman, 3-Green Lantern/Hal Jordan, 4-Nightwing, 5-Hawkman, 6-Firestorm, 7-Supergirl/Linda Danvers, 8-Zatanna, 9-Robin/Tim Drake

  15. #1365
    Astonishing Member Jekyll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallyWestFlash View Post
    Speed Metal.

    20200719_084954.jpg
    Dang! That is pretty!
    AKA FlashFreak
    Favorite Characters:
    DC: The Flash (Jay & Wally), Starman- Jack Knight, Stargirl, & Shazam!.
    MARVEL: Daredevil, Spider-Man (Peter Parker), & Doctor Strange.

    Current Pulls: Not a thing!

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