Wally West: The Flash Appreciation 2020

[Lee]

I don't disagree.

But King was consistently talking about how HiC was going to elevate Wally and shine a spotlight on a character "he loved" going forward. That was the so called point of HiC from a Wally perspective. We're supposed to view it as Wally made mistakes because he "wasn't thinking right" and find him sympathetic because there's strength in vulnerability.

Then Wally was "built back up" at the end thanks to his pep talk with himself and him accepting responsibility for his actions. And now nobody (fans & writers) really wants to deal with the aftermath in any real way.

I don't buy into the story logic of it, the emotion of it. He shoved plastic chattering teeth down a dead man's throat. There's no bouncing back from that, no returning to being a super-hero.

[Rend20]

I mean Flash Forward was kind of a way of dealing with it, maybe not head on since it was mostly a multiverse story but it was still about Wally’s mind set afterwards and the guilt he feels over it to the point where he fueled a planet of dark multiverse energy to where he had to give himself up for that.

I think the dilemma is about the consequences of his actions from beyond Wally's feelings and guilt. King had Wally do some truly horrific things to the point he should be spending most, if not all, of his life locked up. So trying to downplay the severity of his actions and/or ignore them in-universe can be an issue for some people.

All we've gotten so far is Booster's group, Linda, and Jason Todd painting Wally as some tragic figure because it was an accident. The idea there should be a more negative reaction towards Wally in-universe is a legitimate one. And for some readers, the idea that Wally is a hero accepted by others, gets to be a father to Iris/Jai, and the like is hard to swallow after HiC.

I don't buy into the story logic of it, the emotion of it. He shoved plastic chattering teeth down a dead man's throat. There's no bouncing back from that, no returning to being a super-hero.

The thing with that is it was tied to the original idea of Wally actually snapping and murdering everyone. But since the story was changed to an accident, King and DC want to distance themselves from those specific details in the early issues.

[phantom1592]

I'm a fan of good stories having consequences and providing a great source for characters to grow and develop...

And I'm equally a fan of bad stories getting forgotten and never brought up again. HiC was a wally written so out of character that constantly bringing it up and trying to spin it into something positive... is a waste of time. Let's just say Doctor Manhatten rewrote it after Doomsday Clock and it's out of continuity now.

[Lee]

It's like, if Wally was a cop and not a super-hero, would you want him back on the force after doing what he did and saying "sorry, I feel real bad about it"? If he gets broken out of jail to solve a really big case, is all forgiven and he's back on the force?

So how are we to accept him fighting alongside the Justice League or foiling bank robberies after this?

[Rend20]

So how are we to accept him fighting alongside the Justice League or foiling bank robberies after this?

With the same logic that says Harley is a hero now?

I don't think there are many that will disagree with you within the actual context of events. But HiC was a mess that only gets more problematic because DC either realized what a stink show it was and/or had no idea what they were going to do after. Just letting Snyder write it out of history in Death Metal might be the best course of action.

[Lee]

With the same logic that says Harley is a hero now?

I don't agree with the logic behind the Justice League giving her a free pass either, especially the more brutal New 52 Harley. A solo series where she's an anti-hero and doesn't cross paths with the Justice League? Fine. Constantly crossing paths with the Justice League, and them turning a blind eye? Not fine. But I don't understand how the solo Harley Quinn series is supposed to be reconciled with the Harley Quinn in Suicide Squad anyhow.

I don't think there are many that will disagree with you within the actual context of events. But HiC was a mess that only gets more problematic because DC either realized what a stink show it was and/or had no idea what they were going to do after. Just letting Snyder write it out of history in Death Metal might be the best course of action.

It would have to be handled correctly. The Wally we have now is a Wally who exists outside of time, who still experienced and remembered everything before Flashpoint. If that continues to be the case going forward, and he experienced and remembers everything from Heroes in Crisis, then he's still a morally compromised character. Even then, if we get a new/rebooted Wally to replace the original, I'd hate that that is how the original version's story ended.

[Ascended]

I'm a fan of good stories having consequences and providing a great source for characters to grow and develop...

And I'm equally a fan of bad stories getting forgotten and never brought up again. HiC was a wally written so out of character that constantly bringing it up and trying to spin it into something positive... is a waste of time. Let's just say Doctor Manhatten rewrote it after Doomsday Clock and it's out of continuity now.

This. Some stories just need to be swept under the rug and forgotten. HiC is one of them.

But really, who hasn't been compromised? Superman took over the whole world at one point back during the Dominus era. Batman is responsible for destroying the Source Wall, the collapse of the multiverse, and the destruction of earth. Hal has Emerald Twilight and Zero Hour, etc etc.

Now, DC could say that Wally was being influenced by a evil murder bug hidden in the speed force and pretend that it wasn't really Wally's fault, or they could just pretend the story never happened and we can all move forward. I'd rather nobody waste ink on trying to justify a sh*t story, myself.

I don't agree with the logic behind the Justice League giving her a free pass either, especially the more brutal New 52 Harley. A solo series where she's an anti-hero and doesn't cross paths with the Justice League? Fine. Constantly crossing paths with the Justice League, and them turning a blind eye? Not fine. But I don't understand how the solo Harley Quinn series is supposed to be reconciled with the Harley Quinn in Suicide Squad anyhow.

Harley's solo is slightly out of step with continuity; it's supposed to happen after she's done her time with the Squad, so her federal record is clear. She's still got warrants in some states, apparently for relatively minor infractions like aggravated assault, but the bulk of her crimes have been pardoned.

I don't get why people keep saying DC is turning her into a hero though. I'm behind on the book but that is not what has happened at all, as far as I've read.

[PennyDreadful]

I'm a fan of good stories having consequences and providing a great source for characters to grow and develop...

And I'm equally a fan of bad stories getting forgotten and never brought up again. HiC was a wally written so out of character that constantly bringing it up and trying to spin it into something positive... is a waste of time. Let's just say Doctor Manhatten rewrote it after Doomsday Clock and it's out of continuity now.

You can retcon the character AND then just move on. Do both.

Say an evil speedster did it and framed Wally. Or someone from the Dark Multiverse. Something that lets Wally off the hook. The story needs to go by the wayside and DC needs to stop recreating Identity Crisis. Just let it drop once it is fixed.

[Lee]

Like I mentioned earlier in the thread, Barry being corrupted by Reverse-Flash in Flash #9 is still a dangling plot thread that Williamson is playing the long game with. That's one viable avenue for an explanation. Dark Multiverse/Batman Who Laughs corruption is another.

[Frontier]

I don't get why people keep saying DC is turning her into a hero though. I'm behind on the book but that is not what has happened at all, as far as I've read.

Probably because she ends up on the heroes' side during events, gets to team-up with heroes who end up giving her a pass, or gets to attend hero "shindigs."

Which lets her be the more "heroic" individual who can beat up Wally West at the end for his crimes. Bleh.

[deadman322]

This. Some stories just need to be swept under the rug and forgotten. HiC is one of them.

this can only happen if every character that was killed off is brought back.

[Waterfall]

It’s very possible they will just say “It was an accident” and pretend framing part never happened. This is sorta how things have been in Flash Forward too.

[Ascended]

Probably because she ends up on the heroes' side during events, gets to team-up with heroes who end up giving her a pass, or gets to attend hero "shindigs." .

Which just puts her in the same boat as Slade. I'm not arguing that she gets preferential treatment, and the story gets bent so she can be included (just like Slade). I just don't get the people saying she's become a hero.

Her motivation hasn't become more altruistic than it ever was, it's just not quite as misplaced but Harley's not acting with a hero's intent. She's still committing crimes. She's not a hero, she's just popular enough to get included in big stories, just like Slade, and in-universe she's "technically" cleared of most crimes, so unless the heroes catch her in the act they don't have much justification for attacking her.

this can only happen if every character that was killed off is brought back.

Other than Roy, I disagree. Nobody was using any of those characters, none of them were a big deal. If HiC had never happened, none of them would be getting use now. Their deaths can be swept under the rug easily and I'd bet most people rarely even think of those characters to realize they're dead in the first place. And if a writer wants to use any of them, they can be brought back easily.

It'd be nice if they were alive, and Roy really *should* be. But the rest? They're not what is keeping DC from sweeping the story under the rug.

[Frontier]

Which just puts her in the same boat as Slade. I'm not arguing that she gets preferential treatment, and the story gets bent so she can be included (just like Slade). I just don't get the people saying she's become a hero.

People still seem to treat Slade with some aversion that I just don't see with Harley.

Her motivation hasn't become more altruistic than it ever was, it's just not quite as misplaced but Harley's not acting with a hero's intent. She's still committing crimes. She's not a hero, she's just popular enough to get included in big stories, just like Slade, and in-universe she's "technically" cleared of most crimes, so unless the heroes catch her in the act they don't have much justification for attacking her.

I feel like stories could do a better job of acknowledging this.

[Lee]

It’s very possible they will just say “It was an accident” and pretend framing part never happened. This is sorta how things have been in Flash Forward too.

I don't see how they can. Without the framing, the story couldn't have happened. They can not mention it, but that doesn't make it go away. The book is in print and readers of Flash Forward are expected to have read it and/or be aware of what transpired in it. It's not a bit of continuity minutiae, it's an elephant in the room.