Wally West: The Flash Appreciation 2020

[Rend20]

Even then, if we get a new/rebooted Wally to replace the original, I'd hate that that is how the original version's story ended.

The thing is there isn't any real outs here.

Anything to fix the situation now would be an incredibly contrived explanation that makes little sense. DC would be better off just simply saying we screwed up and HiC is no longer considered part of canon. The problem is that HiC was allowed to be the story that it was.

While Wally certainly got the worst of it, all the notable characters in the series were portrayed as horrible people.

[Lee]

The thing is there isn't any real outs here.

Anything to fix the situation now would be an incredibly contrived explanation that makes little sense.

They can come up with a contrived explanation that makes an acceptable amount of sense and ties into existing continuity, like Green Lantern: Rebirth did. Dark Multiverse, Negative Speed Force, Hypertime doubles. There are many, many possible outs.

DC would be better off just simply saying we screwed up and HiC is no longer considered part of canon.

I don't think they could do that without an in-story explanation. And there likely is going to be some kind of continuity re-organisation with Death Metal and Generations. But that would still really suck if Heroes in Crisis, as originally presented, is carved in stone as part of the original Wally West's final chapter. It's a distasteful sendoff, even if he does use his new powers to save the multiverse, it's still the story of a man who committed atrocities beforehand.

The problem is that HiC was allowed to be the story that it was.

While Wally certainly got the worst of it, all the notable characters in the series were portrayed as horrible people.

I don't think it's comparable. You can say so-and-so was out of character, was a being a dick, and so on, but the only one who committed horrible crimes in that story was Wally. For Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman, Heroes in Crisis is a footnote in their story, their publication history. For Wally West it's one of the top 5 biggest things that's ever been done with the character.

[Dred]

It's only a big deal to Wally because he was a core character. The Trinity were ancillary to the story. It's not really an even comparison in that sense because it was largely about Wally and not about Clark, Bruce, or Diana.

It would certainly be a lot more interesting if the actual details of Heroes in Crisis were talked about, but it's so long ago that any ability to follow up on it has long since lost its momentum. They set about ignoring it because they knew it was bad and didn't want to put in the effort to following it up in any serious way. Likely because the ending was changed, which then beget any follow up ideas they had in store being scrapped for thrown together stuff like Flash Forward and Harley and Ivy.

There's more stuff than just Wally that could've used some expounding on. The creation and operation of the place under the Trinity's surveillance being fundamentally horrible and flawed yet they take no responsibility or even give any acknowledgement to their own crimes and faults. Instead heaping all the blame on Wally as a bad egg and the moral of the story being Sanctuary good, Wally bad, which is so comically dissonant it could only take place in the minds of DC's short sighted editors.

But once you start trying to delve back into the meat of Heroes in Crisis you just stumble back onto the plot holes. Like how Wally and Booster didn't use their sudden acquiring of unlimited Time Travel, the ability to affect the past without changing the timeline, and super replacement dead bodies to just save everyone like they did Wally. What a group of idiot heroes who had all the ability to save anyone and clearly none of the moral hangups of abusing their power in a certain way to do so.

[Rend20]

They can come up with a contrived explanation that makes an acceptable amount of sense and ties into existing continuity, like Green Lantern: Rebirth did.

And everyone knows the retcon for Hal was incredibly contrived.

But there's people who recognize Hal was done dirty, people who are Hal fans who happily accept it, and those like Gail Simone who still hold it against his character. Even with the in-universe retcon, readers views on Hal still vary as a result of his actions in Emerald Twilight. Wally will be in the same situation because the damage has been done even with a somewhat believable retcon.

But that would still really suck if Heroes in Crisis, as originally presented, is carved in stone as part of the original Wally West's final chapter. It's a distasteful sendoff, even if he does use his new powers to save the multiverse, it's still the story of a man who committed atrocities beforehand.

If DC cared about not being distasteful, they never would have allowed Wally to do those things in the first place. The vast majority of fans would have no problem with DC simply writing it out of history.

I don't think it's comparable.

Never said it was. But for me, it absolutely ruined the Trinity as well. It's hard to consider them heroes and/or moral pillars of the DCU as long as this story is still canon.

[Lee]

And everyone knows the retcon for Hal was incredibly contrived.

But there's people who recognize Hal was done dirty, people who are Hal fans who happily accept it, and those like Gail Simone who still hold it against his character. Even with the in-universe retcon, readers views on Hal still vary as a result of his actions in Emerald Twilight. Wally will be in the same situation because the damage has been done even with a somewhat believable retcon.

There's always going to be a variance of opinion. But I don't think it's controversial to say that Green Lantern: Rebirth's rehabilitation of Hal Jordan was largely successful and largely accepted by the audience.

If DC cared about not being distasteful, they never would have allowed Wally to do those things in the first place.

I agree. But it's been a tug-of-war at DC for years. Someone (often Dan DiDio) breaks a toy and someone else (often Geoff Johns) comes along to fix it. Cassandra Cain is a murderous villain? Nope! She was being drugged and controlled by Deathstroke all along!

With the recent change in DC leadership, and a global pandemic putting an unexpected pause on comic publishing, there's opportunity for course correction.

The vast majority of fans would have no problem with DC simply writing it out of history.

I wouldn't want it to be part of DC's new timeline. But at the same time, I don't want the "original" Wally to have ever done those things.

It's like if Hal Jordan succeeded in reverting the universe in Zero Hour. Would the audience have been able to embrace the idea of him as an uncompromised hero again, knowing that the previous version was still responsible for those crimes, and the new version only exists because of that version?

Ultimately, "they were being mind controlled", or "it was a doppelganger" are cop outs, but often the best solution when a turn leaves a character unsalvageable. They've already brought the Dark Multiverse into Wally's story, they're already doing the "DC Heroes corrupted by the Dark Multiverse" story, they're only one-step away from explaining away Wally's actions in Heroes in Crisis altogether. It would be a missed opportunity to not take that step.

[Ascended]

People still seem to treat Slade with some aversion that I just don't see with Harley.

I think it's like Punisher and Deadpool. Or at least Deadpool before Marvel went overboard and had him join the Avengers and crap. Neither are heroes, no hero wants to work with either of them, but Frank Castle is a scary dude while Wade is mostly just annoying. Who are you going to be more concerned about when they show up? The guy who looks like his soul died and he's wondering what size casket you take, or the idiot making fart jokes and talking to himself? Harley just isn't as intimidating as Slade, nor is she as dangerous (HiC aside).

I feel like stories could do a better job of acknowledging this.

I don't think I've read many stories where Harley shows up in someone else's book, so I dunno. Probably? In her own book, heroes don't treat her like she's one of them. They might grudgingly work with her due to circumstances, but they don't treat her like a hero at all. Hell, Harls and Power Girl are....sort of....friends, and Karen still doesn't treat Harls like a hero. It comes across more like Karen trying to help Harls stay on the "relatively" straight and narrow more than anything. Like a AA sponsor.

And everyone knows the retcon for Hal was incredibly contrived.

But there's people who recognize Hal was done dirty, people who are Hal fans who happily accept it, and those like Gail Simone who still hold it against his character. Even with the in-universe retcon, readers views on Hal still vary as a result of his actions in Emerald Twilight. Wally will be in the same situation because the damage has been done even with a somewhat believable retcon.

There's a big difference though. Hal was Parallax for years, and involved directly in some major stories that touched on every aspect of the DCU. Kyle was well established as his replacement and was quite popular, carrying the legacy for over a decade. HiC is one story that isn't too important to anyone's history except Wally, Roy, and the Z-listers who died. Much easier to ignore HiC than ignore Parallax.

Yeah, HiC might color some people's perceptions, but if that's the case, then there's no going back. DC saying "pretend it never happened" isn't likely to make anyone forget the story, so ignoring it has the exact same result. DC can either put a lot of work into telling a story that is all about making another story not happen, or they can just ignore HiC and move forward. We'll remember HiC either way, but one option rubs our noses in it while telling us to pretend it didn't happen (which we're all doing anyway) and the other option just treats HiC like the garbage it is and doesn't waste more ink or time on it. Between the two, I know which I'd pick.

[married guy]

I'm a fan of good stories having consequences and providing a great source for characters to grow and develop...

And I'm equally a fan of bad stories getting forgotten and never brought up again. HiC was a wally written so out of character that constantly bringing it up and trying to spin it into something positive... is a waste of time. Let's just say Doctor Manhatten rewrote it after Doomsday Clock and it's out of continuity now.

The sooner THIS is done, the better!!

[Lee]

Yeah, HiC might color some people's perceptions, but if that's the case, then there's no going back. DC saying "pretend it never happened" isn't likely to make anyone forget the story, so ignoring it has the exact same result. DC can either put a lot of work into telling a story that is all about making another story not happen, or they can just ignore HiC and move forward. We'll remember HiC either way, but one option rubs our noses in it while telling us to pretend it didn't happen (which we're all doing anyway) and the other option just treats HiC like the garbage it is and doesn't waste more ink or time on it. Between the two, I know which I'd pick.

Here's the thing though - it can be done in 1 page, in stories that are already in play, in stories that already involve Wally West.

Reverse-Flash briefly corrupted Barry in Flash #9. That's a mystery that's still in play. Wally and Reverse-Flash had some kind of encounter next to some kind of cosmic wormhole. That's a mystery that's still in play.

The DC Universe and its heroes were being corrupted and attacked by the Dark Multiverse. Wally has been fighting the Dark Multiverse. That's still in play.

Wally ran through Hypertime and broke the Force Barrier. That's still in play. Wally can now perceive how broken and contradictory the timeline is. That's still in play.

[Lee]

And I'm equally a fan of bad stories getting forgotten and never brought up again. HiC was a wally written so out of character that constantly bringing it up and trying to spin it into something positive... is a waste of time. Let's just say Doctor Manhatten rewrote it after Doomsday Clock and it's out of continuity now.

He didn't though. Wally's current status quo is built upon Heroes in Crisis having happened and Doomsday Clock having happened. Wally West currently has access to the Mobius Chair and Dr. Manhattan's powers. DC can't just ignore that and have Wally foiling bank robbers in his next appearance. He's in a story that's still in motion, and Wally's part in that story is built on top of Heroes in Crisis.

[Frontier]

I think it's like Punisher and Deadpool. Or at least Deadpool before Marvel went overboard and had him join the Avengers and crap. Neither are heroes, no hero wants to work with either of them, but Frank Castle is a scary dude while Wade is mostly just annoying. Who are you going to be more concerned about when they show up? The guy who looks like his soul died and he's wondering what size casket you take, or the idiot making fart jokes and talking to himself? Harley just isn't as intimidating as Slade, nor is she as dangerous (HiC aside).

In-canon Harley's probably done stuff that even Wade would blanche at. And unlike Slade she doesn't pretend to have scruples, but that doesn't seem to deter people...

I don't think I've read many stories where Harley shows up in someone else's book, so I dunno. Probably? In her own book, heroes don't treat her like she's one of them. They might grudgingly work with her due to circumstances, but they don't treat her like a hero at all. Hell, Harls and Power Girl are....sort of....friends, and Karen still doesn't treat Harls like a hero. It comes across more like Karen trying to help Harls stay on the "relatively" straight and narrow more than anything. Like a AA sponsor.

I dunno, the ambivalence and the team-ups just seem to muddy the water on Harley's exact status, especially when DC seems to want to promote her as more of an anti-hero.

[phantom1592]

this can only happen if every character that was killed off is brought back.

I'm sure they will be.Most of the Z-list characters will probably never be used again... but i wouldn't be at all surprised if they show up in random group shots... probably because the artist forgot they were dead in teh first place.

[TheImperfectFlash]

Wally West by Joe Kelly, thoughts?

[Ascended]

Here's the thing though - it can be done in 1 page, in stories that are already in play, in stories that already involve Wally West.

Sure. It's fiction, *anything* can be done. The next comic Wally appears in could be him waking up with Linda, and everything since Barry's return was just a dream. What I'm asking is, what's the gain? Whether you waste pages trying to undo HiC or you just ignore it and move on, the end result is the same; a continuity that will never mention the story again and a bad taste in our mouths that hasn't gone away because DC pretends they didn't serve us a pile of crap on a plate. So what's the point in wasting pages talking about a story that people hate? If the result is the same either way, then those pages should be spent on content that's actually good, shouldn't it?

I decided to trade wait the Flash Forward mini, but from what I understand it basically boils HiC down into Wally losing control and accidentally killing some people. The uglier details are swept under the rug. Why isn't that good enough? No story DC rolls out is going to make that sh*t show any more tolerable. Better to just get Roy back in action with some quick and dirty resurrection and move the F on, I think.

In-canon Harley's probably done stuff that even Wade would blanche at. And unlike Slade she doesn't pretend to have scruples, but that doesn't seem to deter people...

The fact that Harley is up front and doesn't pretend like Slade is probably a point in her favor. Nobody who meets Slade twice buys into his act. Harley is unpredictable and dangerous, but at least she comes by it honestly.

I dunno, the ambivalence and the team-ups just seem to muddy the water on Harley's exact status, especially when DC seems to want to promote her as more of an anti-hero.

Oh, I can definitely see how it muddies the waters. The morality in DC is binary, you're either a hero or villain, and Harley doesn't quite fall into either of those traditional categories very cleanly. Seems to me that since she doesn't fit the one description anymore, people have assumed she must therefore now be categorized as a hero; after all those are the rules DC itself has set, with damn few exceptions. But that's not accurate, and I feel like the people who say this probably don't actually read her book (maybe they do, I don't know, but I have my doubts). Harls doesn't easily fit the definition of a hero, villain, or even an anti-hero. She kinda blurs things between anti-hero and villain, and might even be considered almost close to being sorta heroic if small animals are involved.

But this has nothing to do with Wally, so let's stop before we derail the thread.

[Lee]

Sure. It's fiction, *anything* can be done. The next comic Wally appears in could be him waking up with Linda, and everything since Barry's return was just a dream. What I'm asking is, what's the gain?

It untarnishes a tarnished character. It puts the character in a place the writers can make sense of and do something with, without being weighed down by the baggage of a tremendously bad decision.

Whether you waste pages trying to undo HiC or you just ignore it and move on, the end result is the same; a continuity that will never mention the story again and a bad taste in our mouths that hasn't gone away because DC pretends they didn't serve us a pile of crap on a plate. So what's the point in wasting pages talking about a story that people hate? If the result is the same either way, then those pages should be spent on content that's actually good, shouldn't it?

DC is in the habit of spending 8 issues or more telling convoluted stories about alternate timelines and multiverses colliding and being rewritten, just so they can tell a new origin for Lex Luthor's baldness. There's at least one around the corner, whether we like it or not. I think they can afford one page, one panel, one word balloon, to fix the damage done to Wally. I think it would please more fans than it would displease.

I decided to trade wait the Flash Forward mini, but from what I understand it basically boils HiC down into Wally losing control and accidentally killing some people. The uglier details are swept under the rug. Why isn't that good enough? No story DC rolls out is going to make that sh*t show any more tolerable. Better to just get Roy back in action with some quick and dirty resurrection and move the F on, I think.

Flash Forward mentions the deaths, the framing innocent people, releasing his colleagues' therapy sessions, the attempted suicide.

As long as it's in continuity that Wally did what he did, it's a scab that will be picked at. Even if one writer ignores it, the next will dredge it back up. It will be on every highlight reel of Wally's publication history. We've seen this happen over and over. It's better to remove the elephant from the room, rather than not talk about it.

[Ilan Preskovsky]

Wally West by Joe Kelly, thoughts?

That would be brilliant, actually. Really great call. He is very, very good with everyman type heroes. His Spidey stories were the best in the One More Day era so I can easily see him knocking it out of the park with Wally.