Wally West: The Flash Appreciation 2020

[Ascended]

Nah, that's only the case while DC wants it to be. Remember DickBats? Sure, we all knew it was temporary, but as long as it lasted, he looked like Batman, he was treated like Batman in story, and that was enough for everyone to go like "ok, that's Batman". Even when he stood side by side with BruceBats.

Same can be done here. In fact, it can be done much more easily. All it takes is editorial will.

But it's too soon to know how the Jim Lee era is going to play out (or even how much it will last). I personally like his editorial chops since the golden years of Wildstorm, the Ellis/Joe Casey ones. But DC is a way bigger operation, wit much more pressure, and things might have changed. Time will tell.

You're right, Lee might find the balance Didio never wanted to have. I should give Lee more credit until he's proven that he'll make the same mistakes as Didio; that's unfair of me.

[Frontier]

Pretty much what most people alreday said here. Classic trickster type Kadabra in the white three piece suit is Barry's villain. But the later crazy, sadistic, ruin your life Kadabra is a Wally villain. He started out as a Barry villain and one of his main recurring villains but hes also had too much of an impact and effect on Wally to disregard him there as well.

Liked the storyline, didn't really like the Kadabra redesign of Waid's run.

[Kyer]

And the design mandate behind it is public:



In contrast, this is one of the designs he submitted back then:

Could it have been that DC wanted to capitalize on the Kid Flash animated version from Young Justice and that is why they wanted that particular slant to the costume? (Didio aside. We all know what he wanted.)

Concept art costume: Oh heck no. It looks like Wally's hero name should be The Harried Hornet. It is way too busy and that is the reason I despised DC52 Bart Allen's costume change (among other heinous acts done to him during that era.)

Kadabra is Wally's villain. He's been Wally's ever since Wally blew the wackjob up. Agreed that Barry can have Murmur.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Could it have been that DC wanted to capitalize on the Kid Flash animated version from Young Justice[...]?)

Probably not.

[Masterff]

Could it have been that DC wanted to capitalize on the Kid Flash animated version from Young Justice and that is why they wanted that particular slant to the costume? (Didio aside. We all know what he wanted.)

Concept art costume: Oh heck no. It looks like Wally's hero name should be The Harried Hornet. It is way too busy and that is the reason I despised DC52 Bart Allen's costume change (among other heinous acts done to him during that era.)

Kadabra is Wally's villain. He's been Wally's ever since Wally blew the wackjob up. Agreed that Barry can have Murmur.

I like it...

Its the right amount..

[BohemiaDrinker]

If you showed someone a picture of the Barry Allen Flash and a picture of the 1990s Wally West Flash, they'd assume them to be the same character.

That was desirable for DC when Wally was the replacement. Same super-hero, different secret identity.

It is not desirable for DC when the two co-exist side-by-side as two different super-heroes, just as it wasn't desirable for Dick Grayson and Bruce Wayne to co-exist as two Batmans long term.

DickBats was knowingly cut short (but that's another discussion altogether). The point here is that it worked. Because it's not that hard.

I fundamentally disagree with this impenetrable, inside baseball approach. Different characters should immediately be recognisable as different characters to the uninitiated.

Which is a fair assessment, in theory. In practice, you can not build Wally back up from a Kid Flash into anything strong enough to justify going cross-media. His run was too long, the strongest Flash material published to date starred him, his fanbase is too vocal and, contrary to what DC and naysayers spent the last decade saying, apparently large enough.

You make him work as the Flash, or he just doesn't work.

From there, you can start tweaking ****.

And you do that with the source material, in this case, comics. And in comics, this is not really a problem.

If the only differences between the two characters are the boots/belt/eyes, the artists will continue to get those details wrong, intentionally or unintentionally.

Not really, you seem to have missed my point, so I'll clarify.

In this very thread we've seen people get angry, and take it very personally, when these mistakes happen, whether it's a red haired Barry Allen, a blue eyed Wally West, a Barry Allen with white eye lenses, the wrong shape lightning bolt emblem, and so on. People were mad about the Flash #750 1990s cover getting Wally's costume wrong. People were also disgruntled about the Flash #750 2000s cover getting Wally's costume "wrong" - even though it actually got it 100% right, which goes to show that even the hardcore fans on the message boards can't keep the track of the minor differences.

Like you said, Scott Kolins draws the belt straight on Barry Allen's New 52/Rebirth suit. He also puts wings on the boots. Even though those features are off-model for that version of the suit, and contradict how all the other artists on the book draw it. On the cover for one of the Flashpoint tie-ins, Brett Booth drew Barry with Wally's belt, when someone commented on it he said he did it intentionally because it "looked cooler".

If I'm not mistaken the drama over the Matina cover was how generic it looked (it did), while the costume was indeed "wrong". The 2000's cover is not 100% right either, though it's close enough, but that's beside the point: this kind of stuff happens a lot when you have one hero holding one particular look: although the V-Belt is the more classic look for Wally, there wasn't really an "on model" portrayal of it because he was the only one with that costume at that point. Sometimes it was an M. Sometimes he had boot-wings, or his eyes were blue (though that stopped after Walter's arc, mostly). Same is true for Barry now.

The reasons these artistic interpretations are allowed to pass are because these tweaks are not relevant. When they become relevant, they mostly disappear. (Sure, you can always point out a red-headed Barry here or there, but then we have to get in the state of things the 2 last of the Didio years were and, let's be frank, we don't want to.)

All that said, this is not a defense of the shiny suit for today. My only point is that it could be done successfully, and it can, but I'm on board with Wally having a unique look. Just nothing outside of the crimson gold, without a centered insignia, cowl-less or bootless. 'Cause he's the Flash.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

God, I really do hope you're right......

Well, I've been wrong before. Remember, I actually thought HiC was building towards a fake out in regards to Wally

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Jim is taking the reigns in some pretty turbulent times: he might want to regain and retain readers trust, which may be accomplished by pacifying the kind of conflict these fanboy wars of ours generate. We'll see,

Yeah, I don't think DC is suddenly going to do right by Wally West out of the goodness of their hearts either, but rather out of a desire to do anything to make the few remaining readers they have happy. I just hope that these attempts to placate disgruntled fans actually produce some good comics. Flash Forward wasn't really that for me, although I appreciated Lobdel & Booth's efforts to course correct.

[Robanker]

Yeah, I don't think DC is suddenly going to do right by Wally West out of the goodness of their hearts either, but rather out of a desire to do anything to make the few remaining readers they have happy. I just hope that these attempts to placate disgruntled fans actually produce some good comics. Flash Forward wasn't really that for me, although I appreciated Lobdel & Booth's efforts to course correct.

Flash Forward seemed more like a palette cleanser than attempt to deliver an epic story. It was very much dusting Wally off to tee him up for the next thing. It that fine, at least Linda and the kids remember/exist now. Just get Want Wally off his butt and start running again.

[Lee]

Which is a fair assessment, in theory. In practice, you can not build Wally back up from a Kid Flash into anything strong enough to justify going cross-media. His run was too long, the strongest Flash material published to date starred him, his fanbase is too vocal and, contrary to what DC and naysayers spent the last decade saying, apparently large enough.

You make him work as the Flash, or he just doesn't work.

From there, you can start tweaking ****.

And you do that with the source material, in this case, comics. And in comics, this is not really a problem.

People accept Jay Garrick as a character named The Flash, but he's immediately distinguishable from Barry Allen. Barry and Wally should be as immediately distinguishable from each other as Barry and Jay are. It's one of the most important rules of character design.

[manwhohaseverything]

How about wally's costume not having a mask at all? You know, he works like superman. Even then, we need something eye-catching in the suit or on his face that can be termed iconic.

[Will Evans]

How about wally's costume not having a mask at all? You know, he works like superman. Even then, we need something eye-catching in the suit or on his face that can be termed iconic.

Even Jay has the Hermès styles helmet

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Flash Forward seemed more like a palette cleanser than attempt to deliver an epic story. It was very much dusting Wally off to tee him up for the next thing. It that fine, at least Linda and the kids remember/exist now. Just get Want Wally off his butt and start running again.

Yeah, I think Flash Forward was mostly meant as half reset, half appology for *&^%ing the character up so badly in HiC. Presumably, the decks were being cleared for whatever is planned for Wally in Death Metal, but I'm hoping this Mobius Chair stuff gets resolved by the end of that story and we get a more recognizably Wally West incarnation of him moving forward, even if he's ends up being primarily a Multiversal speedster.

[manwhohaseverything]

Yeah, I think Flash Forward was mostly meant as half reset, half appology for *&^%ing the character up so badly in HiC. Presumably, the decks were being cleared for whatever is planned for Wally in Death Metal, but I'm hoping this Mobius Chair stuff gets resolved by the end of that story and we get a more recognizably Wally West incarnation of him moving forward, even if he's ends up being primarily a Multiversal speedster.

i hope the character gets a direction, after climbs of the chair . For now, i think i will enjoy wallhatten with the chair.i just think wally should actually have merged with the chair and should be running by bending space around him.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Yeah, I don't think DC is suddenly going to do right by Wally West out of the goodness of their hearts either, but rather out of a desire to do anything to make the few remaining readers they have happy. I just hope that these attempts to placate disgruntled fans actually produce some good comics. Flash Forward wasn't really that for me, although I appreciated Lobdel & Booth's efforts to course correct.

It may come from a little bit of goodness as well. Lee may just go "you know what? Why don't we stop acting like dicks and see how it goes?", because he is nice like that.

People accept Jay Garrick as a character named The Flash, but he's immediately distinguishable from Barry Allen. Barry and Wally should be as immediately distinguishable from each other as Barry and Jay are. It's one of the most important rules of character design.

That particular rule can and should be broken in very specific cases (see, again: DickBats).

Regardless, as I said earlier in the same post you quoted: that's fine. Giving Wally an unique look is ok. Removing him from the Flash iconography is not.