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  1. #451
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    Or the crossover will that teams one shining moment in Hickman's entire run and this book is just stalling until then...I knew her as Psylocke from day one and always loved the name...and many people still see the Asian body and think that's Betsy...

  2. #452
    Extraordinary Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Who?

    I'm willing to bet a LOT of people have no idea Psylocke was a English woman.

  3. #453
    Focused Totality Psycwave's Avatar
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    I’ve actually seen a ton of folks post their pics of Psylocke and still tag them as Betsy.
    Most casual fans don’t even know that Kwannon is back and a lot of current fans are just outright rejecting her as CB and going with the version "they know best."

    That Brooks piece is beautiful but lordy I cannot stand that cape.
    Last edited by Psycwave; 03-30-2020 at 06:58 PM.

  4. #454
    Focused Totality Psycwave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGAR View Post
    Next question: Has the Captain Britain mantle elevated Betsy Braddock?
    No, and while I know this controversial, I still think there's time. Excalibur hasn't been everyone's jam but it still sales decently and gets pretty great reviews. I think X of Sword will be the time to ramp up Betsy as CB. Knowing that Tini says it will delve deeper into the stuff with Brian and the sword the time for elevation will be after. We're hitting the second year of the new era; we've got the foundation and now it's time to put stuff inside.

    What did she lose when she lost the Psylocke codename?
    I echo CRaymond's thoughts on this. I know everyone feels the "brand" of Psylocke was a great loss but she had gained a decent spot as a general in Xavier's army and I don't think it was ever really going to go beyond that. It's no wonder why Kwannon has quickly fallen back into that role. The big difference is she's basically a blank slate so it feels fresh and exciting whereas with Betsy it'd just be more of the same.

    Your opinions so far on this change. Is the writer doing her justice?
    I'm still a fan of the change to CB. But I'm more prone to the idea of Betsy evolving beyond Psylocke rather than the name change. Like, if she had changed her name to Monarch (like so many of us dreamed) then I'd still be here for it. And it again is more for the reasons stated above and by CR. Psylocke, the deadly psychic ninja, was fun but hot damn I'm so pleased that we're getting something new. This is a chance to get back to Betsy and all the aspects of her and push it forward.

    As for the writer...I'm torn. I like Tini. I think she's got some great ideas but the execution is mediocre at best. Idk if any of you read DC but Tynion's Justice League Dark does the exploration of a new type of magic and Wonder Woman being this warrior character with mystical ties and I think how dope it would be if we had something like that. Again, I try to be a little more lenient cause it all still very "phase 1" of this era but the take off was rough. It also seems like a deeper exploration of Betsy's character is coming in X of Swords. We at least got a piece of it in the most recent issue of Excalibur.

  5. #455
    Astonishing Member CGAR's Avatar
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    Just a random side bar. I have something cooking up that I think a lot of you are going to love but:

    Can you post pictures of your favorite artist drawing the Anka Uncanny X-Force uniform, the Captain Britain uniform and the X-Men Disassembled uniform.

    Please and thank you.

  6. #456
    Extraordinary Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psycwave View Post
    I echo CRaymond's thoughts on this. I know everyone feels the "brand" of Psylocke was a great loss but she had gained a decent spot as a general in Xavier's army and I don't think it was ever really going to go beyond that. It's no wonder why Kwannon has quickly fallen back into that role. The big difference is she's basically a blank slate so it feels fresh and exciting whereas with Betsy it'd just be more of the same.
    Thanks man. It's going to sound crass, but Betsy is a Tourist. After being taken by Mojoworld and given new eyes, she stayed with the X-Men for the thrills. I always found it suspect that she believed in Xavier's Dream with the same fervor that the ANAD and others did; it's far more likely she was into the camaraderie and single-minded goals of the X-Men. She wouldn't need to weigh her own conflicts if she subsumed into their ranks. She could "go native" and fight the good fight —alongside peers.

    All of which is why she should have lost her peers and relationships among the X-Men when she moved on from the Psylocke identity. I'm not going to sit and script, but thematically, it would've made a much bigger and character-establishing if Betsy Braddock was forced to leave the island and return to Braddock Manor and rediscover her original role and responsibilities. From THERE she can rebuild new.

  7. #457
    Extraordinary Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGAR View Post
    Please and thank you.

  8. #458
    Proud Krakoan Jbenito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGAR View Post
    Just a random side bar. I have something cooking up that I think a lot of you are going to love but:

    Can you post pictures of your favorite artist drawing the Anka Uncanny X-Force uniform, the Captain Britain uniform and the X-Men Disassembled uniform.

    Please and thank you.
    I believe you mean this one from UXF? Which I loved.

    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  9. #459
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGAR View Post
    Next question: Has the Captain Britain mantle elevated Betsy Braddock? What did she lose when she lost the Psylocke codename? Your opinions so far on this change. Is the writer doing her justice?

    Once again please don’t turn this into a Betsy vs Kwannon thing.
    I love the elevation, however I still want HER to be Psylocke and Kwannon to be her own character.
    Tini is not a good fit for Betsy in my opinion. She needs a writer who understands the character's history, minus attempted retcons by some writers.

  10. #460
    homo superior gifted's Avatar
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    I first met Betsy Braddock when she returned to the X-Men during the Sisterhood arc of Uncanny X-Men, but I really fell in love with her during Second Coming-- I became a fan of what she represented, both on panel and off panel. Moving forward, she appeared quite frequently, which included her having a starring role in Rick Remender's Uncanny X-Force. But also appeared often throughout the entire X-Line.

    However, while waiting for new issues to be released, I studied up and read all of her appearances, both in the early Captain Britain and then when she joined the X-Men across seas. The following is how I would define her.

    Elizabeth Braddock is the type of woman who you'd want to introduce to your mother, but may get along better with your father. She's the true feminist who doesn't need to tell the world that she's a feminist, and that's because she's too busy living it. You could catch her fixing her hair for a modeling gig, but only because she messed it up during a motorcycle ride. She's masculine and feminine at the same time.

    This is a character beat that the modern office of Marvel is still having trouble with. When they wanted to elevate Ororo Munroe, they made her this powerful, strong woman with not much personality, and also cut off her hair again. When they wanted to elevate Carol Danvers, they made her this powerful, strong woman with not much personality, and also cut off her hair. When they wanted to elevate Kitty Pryde, they made her this powerful, strong woman with not much personality, and also cut off her hair.

    Marvel tends to strip their female characters of their femininity and depth when they want to make them powerful and strong. But in reality, "powerful" and "strong" aren't really character traits at all. Carol being an alcoholic and overcoming that alcoholism made her strong. Ororo losing her powers, but still winning battles made her powerful. Kitty using her technological savvy made her useful. But using powerful or strong as a character trait isn't going to cut it; because if that's all you can define a character by, that makes them boring and generic.

    A prominent facet of Betsy's character is that she's an adrenaline-junkie and can sometimes act on "fight, no flight" impulses. She's been manipulated physically, emotionally, and mentally, which is why she's so strong-headed and strong-willed, because she wants to be able to express the fact that SHE is in control and has the agency to make her own decisions. Which is why she's often the foil to the other starring characters (Logan, Erik, Apocalypse, etc.) because she's grossly opinionated.

    For the past decade since she's returned in Sisterhood, we've been gifted with plenty of showcases of Betsy on an emotionally deep level. Which is why it's such a jarring opposition reading Tini Howard's Betsy because she's not as emotionally deep as she has been. Her being elevated to "Captain Britain" put her in that same position Carol, Ororo, and Kitty all recently went through.

    Howard's Excalibur is very plot-focused and story-driven, which is why we don't get the intellectual characterization that you can see in a book like X-Force. I'm not going to say Excalibur is bad at all, but it's more surface-level than we want it to be. And I think if given the chance, and after X of Swords in which Hickman can provide his touch in co-writing, Excalibur can be an absolute beast!

    And maybe Betsy isn't the Betsy we want to see because Betsy doesn't know who she is herself? Like I mentioned, she's been toyed with and also living in another woman's body for so long, that the very chance that she gets to be herself again, she's suddenly forced into taking on another role of someone else, yet again (AKA her brother's mantle as Captain Britain).

    So I'm just hoping we can eventually have some downtime issues soon so we can get back inside the thoughts of Betsy and see how she's really feeling about all of this.

    This post meant to be like two paragraphs, but I went on a rant. And for that, I do apologize.
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  11. #461
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    Who?

    I'm willing to bet a LOT of people have no idea Psylocke was a English woman.
    Quote Originally Posted by Psycwave View Post
    I’ve actually seen a ton of folks post their pics of Psylocke and still tag them as Betsy.
    Most casual fans don’t even know that Kwannon is back and a lot of current fans are just outright rejecting her as CB and going with the version "they know best."

    That Brooks piece is beautiful but lordy I cannot stand that cape.


    I think there's a lot of people that don't realize Betsy was a white woman transplanted into an Asian body. Most casual fans just think Psylocke has always been the name of an Asian woman.

    The Psylocke brand is "Japanese ninja lady". Practically every adaptation of the character has Psylocke as someone of Asian descent.

  12. #462

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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    Eh, that costume always felt more generic because it kinda resonates Yukio's costume
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  13. #463
    Judgement Awaits LordAllMIghty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    I think there's a lot of people that don't realize Betsy was a white woman transplanted into an Asian body. Most casual fans just think Psylocke has always been the name of an Asian woman.

    The Psylocke brand is "Japanese ninja lady". Practically every adaptation of the character has Psylocke as someone of Asian descent.
    Correct. Its gonna be hard for Marvel to rebrand Besty as something new when she been an Asian telepathic assassin for almost 30 years.

    I hope she does well as Captain Britain but I feel she will never outshine her Psylocke persona.
    I've seen your end and it starts with you challenging me.

  14. #464
    Focused Totality Psycwave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gifted View Post
    Howard's Excalibur is very plot-focused and story-driven, which is why we don't get the intellectual characterization that you can see in a book like X-Force. I'm not going to say Excalibur is bad at all, but it's more surface-level than we want it to be. And I think if given the chance, and after X of Swords in which Hickman can provide his touch in co-writing, Excalibur can be an absolute beast!

    And maybe Betsy isn't the Betsy we want to see because Betsy doesn't know who she is herself? Like I mentioned, she's been toyed with and also living in another woman's body for so long, that the very chance that she gets to be herself again, she's suddenly forced into taking on another role of someone else, yet again (AKA her brother's mantle as Captain Britain).

    So I'm just hoping we can eventually have some downtime issues soon so we can get back inside the thoughts of Betsy and see how she's really feeling about all of this.

    This post meant to be like two paragraphs, but I went on a rant. And for that, I do apologize.
    Gifted <3 This was all lovely and I love seeing all the positivity around our girl.

    This part stuck out to me because I didn't realize how true it was until now. Excalibur IS all about the story with the relationships second, but with X of Swords on the horizon it now feels intentional where I felt it was just...being ignored before. I'm a very big supporter of Howard, some of her other stuff I've read has been really good but she also focused on relationships in those things. Again, I think once XoS gets moving we will get more of those personality nuggets that we've been used to.
    Last edited by Psycwave; 03-31-2020 at 08:15 AM.

  15. #465
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    Some writers are VERY good at certain things and other writers are good at many things. Tini writes a GREAT Apocalypse, she writes a terrible to decent Betsy. To's art is saving the book.

    For those readers who've only ever thought of her as the asian woman, they were too lazy to read a basic character bio on one of the MANY fan pages about her.

    I think Marvel did a good thing putting her back where she belongs. But I don't think Tini is the right writer for our girl.

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