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  1. #1366
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    Quote Originally Posted by slacker View Post
    Any mutant or superhero or villain can "simply just use their powers" to nullify any plot, so that's an argument as old as time that just doesn't work unfortunately. And besides that, Saturnyne has only just been shown to be wildly powerful in Otherworld in a way that she can basically bend anything to her will it seems. However, she isn't a god like Merlyn or Roma, she is still just human.

    And her relationship with Brian, and the Braddocks is complicated. But essentially she feels like she has Brian wrapped around her finger, and acts like it, until he is in the way of her ambitions. So it's not exactly a loving relationship. More abusive really, but you'd have to research to answer all your questions you may have about why the Braddocks are often her weak spot.
    Yea - I wasn't saying that as a criticism, but more that "Since she didn't do anything about it when she clearly could have, I think it means that she intended for this to happen".

    It's like if a mom turns her back on her toddler, and the toddler takes a cookie from the cookie jar. Mom knows she can stop the kid, but she wants to see if the kid will actually steal the cookie and lie about it after.

    I feel like it was a test of loyalties and she wanted to see what Brian would do. However there might be some past history you're referring to that I don't know about that may change my thoughts on this part. If you could point me to some things that explain this further I'd like to look into it.


    However, bottom line is, if she didn't want them to have the starlight sword, then she could have done a myriad of things to prevent it. The fact that she did nothing tells me she, at some level, wants them to have it. It may not be how she wanted it to go down, but she was initially willing to trade it to them for a good time so at least that much is certain. The thing I don't get is if she really loves Brian, or at least, believes she possesses him why would she involve him in the prophecy and risk getting him killed?

    I still stand by my point that it was kind of a dumb and reckless plan by the Braddocks to do what they did, as bringing Jamie along as part of the plan is a massive wild card in and of itself. And the fact that they didn't have to give up much to obtain the sword to get it legitimately makes taking the aforementioned risk plus pissing off Saturnyne seem to be way too much downside compared to the small sacrifice of one night of infidelity. It's not like they were avoiding going to hell and back (literally). I'm sure Brian's wife would understand ("honey I had to do it or the world would end in 3 days!") and if not, a broken marriage is worth saving the world IMO.

  2. #1367
    Focused Totality Psycwave's Avatar
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    Look at this super cool fanart yíall.



    https://twitter.com/valentinemsm1th/...166529024?s=21

  3. #1368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psycwave View Post
    We're eating girls

    Betsy be like “How come every time you come around
    My London Bridge wanna go down, like London, London, London”
    Last edited by Shadowcat; 10-24-2020 at 12:59 AM.

  4. #1369
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    With Betsy obtaining the starlight sword, I hope we see more of her telepathy in use. Itís so blaaaaagh already, especially since itís always just a sword and shield.

  5. #1370
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    I really wanted Vita to take over after this is all over, hopefully Apocalypse is no longer the driving force behind the book, and develop the rest. Also this lineup is gross. Dump the group, add the Black Knight, Union Jack, Dazzler, Pixie, or Trance for the obligatory Kitty Pryde role.

  6. #1371
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    Default THIS is everything

    Regarding the fan art...So many readers forget that with Fabian's goof-up with introducing Kwannon and the "body-swap" that it was soooo much more than basic body swapping.; Spiral merged them on a genetic level mingling their DNA. So Psylocke would not look strictly Japanese or British but a mix. That was part of why Wolverine recognized her as Lady Mandarin. It wasn't just the purple hair or the scent, but enough of her features were there to bear resemblance to her original body (think of it as how one can see a parent in their child's face depending on which way they're looking) This artwork gives me what I always envisioned her to look like after the merge. Not swap, but merge. Big difference.

    BTW, was it ever explained why Jamie brought her back in the merged form? (I'm assuming IRL Marvel still vetoed bringing her back as Caucasian) And am I the only one that appreciated that it was jubilee who first talked to her after she remade her body? And am I the only one who doesn't understand why they all left the Psylocke body in Japan without a second thought? I still want to believe that somehow Betsy was able to put Kwannon back to life to also give her the chance to live. That's why i wish they would talk. Besides, if Kwannon doesn't already know what Betsy went thru in the merged body, that can come back to bite her bad. Crimson Dawn, Death Seed. any villain who doesn't know she's not Betsy...isn't Slaymaster still out there somewhere?

    We know Marvel will just sweep everything under the rug and throw it under the 6-month gap but jeez deal with it for once.

  7. #1372
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    They probably left the body in the vain hope that fans would just forget about it or something along those lines, right now it seems that Marvel is trying to forget as much as they can about the whole affair of Kwannon and Revanche and Betsy and all of that...

    I'm not sure that an all English team would work as an ongoing, wasn't it tried before and it didn't work, perhaps better off as some threat arises and like Pete Wisdom or Betsy assembles a team to protect England, that the team then dissolves after the threat is over, do that in like a limited series or a series of them...

    Yeah there were several attempts to put her back into a British body over the years that Marvel said no to...then when it was finally done it was bungled horribly...

  8. #1373
    Incredible Member MetalPsyc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mykle1616 View Post
    Regarding the fan art...So many readers forget that with Fabian's goof-up with introducing Kwannon and the "body-swap" that it was soooo much more than basic body swapping.; Spiral merged them on a genetic level mingling their DNA. So Psylocke would not look strictly Japanese or British but a mix. That was part of why Wolverine recognized her as Lady Mandarin. It wasn't just the purple hair or the scent, but enough of her features were there to bear resemblance to her original body (think of it as how one can see a parent in their child's face depending on which way they're looking) This artwork gives me what I always envisioned her to look like after the merge. Not swap, but merge. Big difference.

    BTW, was it ever explained why Jamie brought her back in the merged form? (I'm assuming IRL Marvel still vetoed bringing her back as Caucasian) And am I the only one that appreciated that it was jubilee who first talked to her after she remade her body? And am I the only one who doesn't understand why they all left the Psylocke body in Japan without a second thought? I still want to believe that somehow Betsy was able to put Kwannon back to life to also give her the chance to live. That's why i wish they would talk. Besides, if Kwannon doesn't already know what Betsy went thru in the merged body, that can come back to bite her bad. Crimson Dawn, Death Seed. any villain who doesn't know she's not Betsy...isn't Slaymaster still out there somewhere?

    We know Marvel will just sweep everything under the rug and throw it under the 6-month gap but jeez deal with it for once.
    Yep it was not merely a body swap, it's merging and recombination between the two. The X-Men series and Origins: X-Men confirmed it. Marvel retconned it again so they can split the two. The the execution was not great. Kwannon should not look like Ninja-Psycloke. And the whole she's been in her psyc the whole time is a total BS.

    As for Jamie resurrected her in the merge form. I guess because he wanted a weapon to fight the Foursaken. Hence resurrecting the body that has the knowledge of martial arts certainly helps.

  9. #1374
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    Took a time to think about psylocke’s evolution as a character:

    Introduced as a pilot at a young age, betsy first appeared as a bland damsel in distress for captain britain in one of his first stories. She later showed some guts handling an axe against her brothers, while hallucinating, but no true personality came out for her in her fist depictions.

    Later she was mentioned to be a model. Her majestic beauty would be a relevant part of her characterization trough the years

    Then she came back as a spy and finally with some personality of her own. She was written as real, down to earth woman, warm hearted towards her family and friends, but with a cool and sophisticated behavior, like the british aristocrat she is.

    She was the cunning, reserved, background support player, while brian played the face front type.

    She was not a hero. Even when she reluctantly took over captain britain mantle, her failure showed us she was not meant to wear a cape. At least not yet.

    When she joined the x-men that is where she had picked up. She showed a inner desire to belong to a band of warriors, but she wasn’t sure she fit. Her first adventures proved her she could have a place among the heroes and she joined the x-men as one the brains. A major strategist, not in the front line due to her lack of Physical strength.

    She was deadly in her own way, but not born to be a warrior, like storm or wolverine. She even started sporting a knight armor to compensate for her fragility.

    I think betsy wanted to be a warrior, but not a face type champion like her brother. She wasn’t half as noble as her brother and felt completely fine with that. She was a bit merciless and didn’t respect privacy that much, mind-scanning people without permission. She was friendly, but colder than other x-men, I’d say.

    After the siege perilous we went deeper on betsy’s inner wish to be a warrior. We learn about betsy frustration with brian being chosen to be captain britain, and not her. She was the adventurous tom boy and brian the bookworm. It should not be a birthright passed from father to son, right?

    Her rebirth trough the siege perilous granted her the final piece in her quest for being a true warrior by putting her mind into the body of a Japanese assassin. Betsy was now depicted as master combatant, able to transform a fight into a masterpiece. Flawless body and mind connection was now her trademark. Thoughts and action as one. She moved from being one of brains, or the woman behind the curtains, to the front line of the team. Not as commander, but as a soldier, a pawn. Far from irrelevant, thought. She was more popular then ever, back then. Perhaps she could still sit on one of the council chairs with xavier, cyclops, jean and storm, but she wasn’t that interested. She was thrilled with the possibilities of her new body and fighting skills and all she wanted is the adrenaline of jumping into close combat, even though she had the perfect powerset for long ranged attacks.

    (Her adrenaline addiction and her pragmatism when giving bad guys their deserved payback would one day evolve to her killing addiction and haunt her completely)

    We learn that betsy was truly comfortable in her new skin. She was finally a fighting machine, a warrior, on pair with wolverine, and she was even able to match her brother on a fight. Her drop-dead beauty was more explored by writers and by her. She wasn’t afraid of being sexy and flirting wildly. She was pretty active in the british body, skying, swimming. But after the body swap she became a disciplined gym rat. Always training in the danger room, or exercising outdoor. Something explored until these days.

    After the body swap was revealed and revanche returned in her original caucasian body, it s fair to say that ‘convolution’ became another layer of psylocke’s characterization. She often mentions how her life has been many times obliterated and manipulated that is hard to settle in her own skin.

    She now faced herself once again in a identity issue: she was finally what she ever wanted to be and she panicked with the possibility of it being taken back from her.

    It wasn’t taken from her after all. Betsy remained in kwannon’s body, as the team resident ninja. The ninja attribute of her characterization completely dominated her during the late 90’s. It was pushed even further with the crimson dawn storyline, removing the outgoing, friendly aspect of her. She was colder than ever, callous, silent. Just like an actual ninja should be. The crimson dawn also was a scape goat for merging even more improper Japanese aspects into psylocke character: she had a dojo, a red face tattoo resembling a Japanese ideogram and a mini serie heavily influenced by oriental mythologies.

    She showed a really noble part of herself when she chose to sacrifice her telepathy to lock shadowking into her mind. It is my feeling that she wouldn’t feel that inclined to abdicate from her fighting skills.

    When claremont came back and rebooted betsy with TK and no trace o Crimson Dawn, she was back to basics. She was still aiming to be the perfect warrior, after all, even as a ninja, she had a few defeats (like when she was almost killed by sabretooth). She wasn’t nearly half as skilled with her tk as she was with her telepathy, but the strength of new powers enhancing the physical strength of her punchs and kicks, made her even more proficient into hand to hand combat.

    Once again, betsy was depicted as the one who can kill from afar, but choose to rely on short ranged psionic weapons and melee attacks.

    One thing that claremont returned to her character is her joie de vivre. Betsy as frequently dancing, drinking, flirting. She was indeed a free spirit, at last not tormented by the collateral effects of her inner quests.

    Then she died and was resurrected by her crazy older brother. Once again in the convoluted road of obliterations, deaths and rebirths that defines betsy’s history.

    Until claremont took over x-men again the 00’s we hardly saw betsy manifest her aristocrat background and mannerisms. We saw her hellfire club heritage and she paid a few visits to brian in Excalibur. But in the end, during the 90’s It was like she knew she could have been a princess, but threw it all away to be a warrior.

    I think claremont did a great job in consolidating past and present betsy in a single character. Silk and armor, tea and knives, braddock manor and danger room. She was both a warrior and a rich british girl.


    Shortly after her resurrection she joined Exiles. Betsy and her never ending quest for relevance as a warrior. She moved from being a mutant warrior to a omniversal warrior, a role she felt she would be more useful than being a second class x-men.

    When psylocke came back to earth in late 00’s, she briefly felt under the soldier/pawn characterization from the early 90’s. thankfully she soon grew out of this role and in the 2010’s she was one of the mutants, like wolverine, who felt a duty to protect mutants at any cost from the insane levels of oppression they where suffering after the second coming. Acting more in the shadows than never, she joined x-force as their moral compass, but she eventually went way down the road of bloodlust. Another layer of her personality surfaced: The swan in lake. Calm and peaceful in the outside, but in a intense turmoil on the inside regarding her killing addiction.

    The irony: what once was her blessing was now her curse. She was the body of an ninja assassin, being the warrior she ever wanted to be, but it backfired when the assassin instincts within the body completely took over her morals.

    Those years redefined her character. Betsy became more conflicted and serious. Her struggles with her killing addiction and her reluctancy on following wolverine undercover agenda led her to her own path. She had her own beliefs and stopped following orders. That would result in her running her own x-forces (her group in LA and then co leading a team with cable) and then joining magneto on his “brotherhood of evil x-men”, when no other x-men did.

    Now back in her original body, betsy is acting as if she is in a clean slate. As if her dark deeds have left her with her ninja body. She says she feels resentful of the things she did in kwannon’s body as if this was a burden she passed along with the body. It feels like she wants to believe in this, and for the first time we see betsy inclined towards nobility. She not only sees herself as a warrior, but also a noble hero. At least, she is trying hard to prove herself as one. So far in her tenure as captain britain, it seems that gone are the days she would stab her knives, twist minds and sneak away.

    On the other hand, kwannon is now back, leading a band of killers, to take from where uncanny x-force betsy left us. lurking in the shadows - assassin psylocke!

    Regarding betsy in excalibur now, you don’t happen to press a button and leave behind who you are in order to fit a new role. I’d love to see her pragmatism towards the bad guys and her personal objectives conflicting with her self imposed righteousness. Saturnine has already teased us regarding this in excalibur 13 and this is a direction I’d love to see.
    Last edited by crimsontt; 10-25-2020 at 07:25 AM.

  10. #1375
    Focused Totality Psycwave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MetalPsyc View Post
    I was pleasantly surprised with #13. Loved the dynamics between the Braddocks and their play with Saturyne.
    As for Betsy insisted on keeping her CB status, I think it's more like that she's done with people telling her or making decisions for her. In the past she repeatedly being manipulated (especially her body) by others. I think she wants to decide for herself what to do with her life.
    I also feel like she's actually come to believe in herself in the role. Once they couldn't rescue Brian in issue 3 she's been consistently insisting to people how she is CB and the "real deal." It's just like how earlier in the book Brian made the comment about how she always preferred swords or even this issue when he just thought he'd take the amulet back. Everyone sees this as temporary and she'll be back to, as Rogue put it, "Psylocke stuff." Something she's been trying to distance herself from since she vowed not to kill anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by crimsontt View Post
    Now back in her original body, betsy is acting as she is in a clean slate. As if her dark deeds have left her with her ninja body. She says she feels resentful of the things she did in kwannon’s body as if this was a burden she passed along with the body. It feels like she wants to believe in this, and for the first time we see betsy inclined towards nobility. She not only sees herself as a warrior, but also a noble hero. At least, she is trying hard to prove herself as one. So far in her tenure as captain britain, it seems that gone are the days when she would stab her knives, twist minds and sneak away.

    On the other hand, kwannon is now back, leading a band of killers, to take off from where uncanny x-force betsy left us. lurking in the shadows - assassin psylocke!

    Regarding betsy in excalibur now, you don’t happen to press a button and leave behind who you are in order to fit a new role. I’d love to see her pragmatism towards the bad guys and her personal objectives conflicting with her self imposed righteousness. Saturnine has already teased us regarding this in excalibur 13 and this is a direction I’d love to see.
    Yes yes yes. Definitely excited for more of this as Betsy and was really glad when Saturnyne pointed it out.

  11. #1376
    Dark Angel of Feminism Shadowcat's Avatar
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    I haven’t read the current issue yet, just skimmed for some yummy Silva Betsy, but I’m not loving Brian’s new code name. Captain Albion just sounds better. After this event is over, I want to see Excalibur have a Crosstime adventure, where Betts and Brian go across the new universes that Franklin Richards created to recreate the Captain Britain Corps. They could be on the run from Saturnyne, who’d send out the Technet, or even the Fury.

  12. #1377
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    I like the idea of Betsy and Pete, but Tini really needs to put the work in. It just doesn’t feel organic at this point.

  13. #1378
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    The Hand, Spiral, and the Mandarin did the body switch and merger of personalities with Kwannon. One if the first things Elizabeth says after recreating her body is after all she has been through she is finally herself, not tied to someone else’s destiny.

    So as far as she is concerned those bad deeds left when she left Kwannon’s body, as she was really living out the life meant for Kwannon.

  14. #1379
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreeter View Post
    The Hand, Spiral, and the Mandarin did the body switch and merger of personalities with Kwannon. One if the first things Elizabeth says after recreating her body is after all she has been through she is finally herself, not tied to someone elseís destiny.

    So as far as she is concerned those bad deeds left when she left Kwannonís body, as she was really living out the life meant for Kwannon.
    Well itís a interesting way of putting things. When revanche died she left matsuo with the means for removing all traits of her personality from betsyís mind, and he did it. But it could easily be retconned.

    in fact in kwannonís body she was still a killing machine per say, perfect reflexes, moving like quicksilver (the metal, not pietro) and with proficiency with blades. But she should still be the same now in her body and even more as captain britain, so Iím still interested to see if she really left it behind.

  15. #1380
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    Quote Originally Posted by crimsontt View Post
    Well itís a interesting way of putting things. When revanche died she left matsuo with the means for removing all traits of her personality from betsyís mind, and he did it. But it could easily be retconned.

    in fact in kwannonís body she was still a killing machine per say, perfect reflexes, moving like quicksilver (the metal, not pietro) and with proficiency with blades. But she should still be the same now in her body and even more as captain britain, so Iím still interested to see if she really left it behind.
    Kwannon said she was screaming, but nobody could hear her. So she was never removed from Betsyís mind.

    There was never independent confirmation Matsuo had removed anything, so easy for later writers to ignore.

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