Elizabeth (Betsy) Braddock: Captain Britain Appreciation 2020

[CRaymond]

Nicieza openly not even reading the pertinent issues when writing the apparent resolution is maybe the most rawly powerful move ever made in comics and makes me lol to this day ... Say what you will but the man had balls

Ugh I know. Just brazen bullshit on a conveyor belt.

[Havok83]

Nicieza openly not even reading the pertinent issues when writing the apparent resolution is maybe the most rawly powerful move ever made in comics and makes me lol to this day ... Say what you will but the man had balls

balls? More like pure stupidity

[coveredinbees]

Go for it. Tell us what retcon would've worked leaving the twin of Captain Britain looking like an Asian woman.

There was never a Kwannon. Betsy is just crazy and Omega level and made them all think she was real.

[PoP]

psylocke_evolution_commission_by_wiltonarts.jpg

you know what would've been really cool to me? if she wore the 80s pink outfit with translucent sleeves as a casual outfit but as soon as the x-men go out to battle she transforms into the armor! <3

[Shadowcat]

psylocke_evolution_commission_by_wiltonarts.jpg

you know what would've been really cool to me? if she wore the 80s pink outfit with translucent sleeves as a casual outfit but as soon as the x-men go out to battle she transforms into the armor! <3

The pink is still my favorite look for Betsy.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

Go for it. Tell us what retcon would've worked leaving the twin of Captain Britain looking like an Asian woman.

I was more meaning the whole mess that it became later on as writer after writer messed with how she came to be in the Asian body...

[CRaymond]

I was more meaning the whole mess that it became later on as writer after writer messed with how she came to be in the Asian body...

I still don’t understand. How would you like the story to have worked? Disregard all writers. What do you want and how do you get there?

[Saturius]

I still don’t understand. How would you like the story to have worked? Disregard all writers. What do you want and how do you get there?

Or they could have just gone with the original intent. Spiral transformed her into an Asian via Spirals body shoppe magic. That was Claremont's intention and I don't know why in the hell Nicezia made it 20 thousand times more needlessly complicated than that. Claremont should have reverted her after Acts of Vengeance as planned though then we wouldn't have this problem anyway.

[CRaymond]

Or they could have just gone with the original intent. Spiral transformed her into an Asian via Spirals body shoppe magic. That was Claremont's intention and I don't know why in the hell Nicezia made it 20 thousand times more needlessly complicated than that. Claremont should have reverted her after Acts of Vengeance as planned though then we wouldn't have this problem anyway.

Yes, we covered Claremont's lost intent a few pages ago and suggested alternatives to the Kwannon debacle that arose with her introduction.

What If Revanche was revealed to be the real Betsy Braddock? ...

"Kwannon" should have been a psychic illusion manifested by a coven of Hand-aligned psychics. The "Betsy" appearance and memories were falsified specifically to disorient and obscure the reality of the ruse. The entire goal was to get Psylocke to doubt her own sanity and sense of self following the Hand's spell that transformed her body to resemble an Asian woman.

Betsy should've broken the spell in the 90s and regained her English appearance.

LoganAlpha30X33 is famous for his attachment to "90's Psylocke" basically consisting of 1. Asian body, 2. English mind, and 3. Archangel boyfriend. Given recent events have pretty much eliminated that yellowface anecdote from ever happening again, I'm interesting in whether Logan's idea of an acceptable retcon is both good and not racist.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

Perhaps because CC started something without finishing it and then a different writer did their own spin on it, it happens all the time...as for Betsy what other mind was she supposed to have, and I never saw it as yellowface as it was never Betsy's choice, a retcon could have done away with the whole bodyswap bit entirely, even though it was more of a melding than a swap...

[CRaymond]

Perhaps because CC started something without finishing it and then a different writer did their own spin on it, it happens all the time...as for Betsy what other mind was she supposed to have, and I never saw it as yellowface as it was never Betsy's choice, a retcon could have done away with the whole bodyswap bit entirely, even though it was more of a melding than a swap...

I can barely parse this into a clear response. This may be a language or cognition issue, so I'll break this all down for you.

Conversation 1.

Perhaps because CC started something without finishing it and then a different writer did their own spin on it, it happens all the time...

No one here misunderstands that Claremont miscalculated his tenure on X-Men and the time he had in order to address the Asian Betsy issue. As you say, writers resolve issues begun by their predecessors all the time. What CC started was flippantly racist at the time, and egregiously racist in the present. It needed to be dealt with, and it was in 2019. While the VAST majority of participants in this forum quibble over the details of how it was done, you have have always seemed resistant to understanding why it was done. Please correct me if this is wrong.

Conversation 2.

as for Betsy what other mind was she supposed to have,

This is what several of us debate, and specifically what Havok83 has asked the forum to speculate. The options are 1. The Asian appearance was a glamour placed upon Betsy's English body by an outside source (Mojo/The Hand/Otherworld/etc) or... 2. The Asian body was fundamentally brainwashed into believing it was Betsy Braddock and it is its own character, abused by brainwashing... or 3. The Asian body was NEVER Betsy Braddock at all, and Psylocke would never have been Asian... 4. Betsy should've never have been rendered Asian at all, and telepathically made the crimelords believe she was Asian... 5. other options welcome.

Conversation 3.

and I never saw it as yellowface as it was never Betsy's choice

Whether YOU would categorize it as yellowface is not in question. Betsy's culpability and criminality is not in question. The act to commodify an Asian appearance to increase the prestige of a white character is a racist act on the part of the author and artist of that character. Their culpability and criminality is up for debate, but also, not really a concern. It's Marvel's concern and responsibility to resolve.

Conversation 4.

a retcon could have done away with the whole bodyswap bit entirely

Yes, at several points, marvel could have instructed Betsy's artists and authors to create a retcon that could resolve the issue. They didn't touch the issue until 2019, when Betsy built for herself a new English appearance and Kwannon piloted her own body. Are you suggesting a retcon? What ideas do you have that are both good and not racist? As you would be the creator of this retcon, your culpability for a bad, racist idea is subject to the forum to debate.

Converation 5.

even though it was more of a melding than a swap...

This is an issue you continue to bring up. Yes, in the captions and dialog of Jamie's resurrection of Betsy back in the Claremont/Davis Reload, it's suggested that the Asian appearing body was made with some elements of Betsy's original. The percentage and placement of those elements was never clarified, and the body was still Asian-appearing, which is what the forum continues to respond to you when you bring this up.

[Izanami]

I would like to bring up two things that I observed regarding the Kwannon and Elizabeth conundrum.

1. Claremont did not overstate his welcome as he has been a writer for the X-men for 17 years and would have kept going into the 90s if there were no clashes with editorial. His last issue was the opening arc of X-men in 1992. There is a reason why Image comics was created in 1992.

2. If anyone is to blame for the mess regarding Psylocke and Kwannon its Niciezas editor Bob Harras. He was the editor for the original Acts of Vengeance Arc that Claremont wrote and he was the same editor who should have caught the mistake in Nicieza's story. Someone did not do their job and it was the editor for not informing the writer about Betsy.

[CRaymond]

Yeah. Asian Betsy was still Betsy Braddock until Nicieza created Kwannon and Harras let him. The issue should’ve been resolved in 92, without Kwannon’s unnecessary creation. Yet here we are.

[coveredinbees]

I still don't understand why she traded Revanche for Psylocke. To annoy Betsy?

[kevlon]

Yeap, th editor is ultimately responsible.

And at least Fabian admits his mistake.