Elizabeth (Betsy) Braddock: Captain Britain Appreciation 2020

[Infernal-Ginger]

New Exiles, New Excalibur and Humphries Uncanny X-Force is ALL worse than this.

Even worse when she cut her hair short - she looked awful

[Selene]

New Exiles, New Excalibur and Humphries Uncanny X-Force is ALL worse than this.

If quality of book is what you're arguing for here, it could be as you say. I haven't bought anything from Marvel since the Mystery in Madripoor fiasco, so I can't really form an opinion on the subject.

But her future has never looked more bleak than it does now, with all that's been going on with Kwannon in parallel. It's unprecedented, and I don't see how higher exposure under the current circumstances is reason for me to stay positive.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

Right now this version is basically a brand new character with the only ones that know her history being the ardent fans, otherwise they could probably have just replaced Betsy on this team with almost anybody else and little to nothing would be different...

[Ferro]

I don't recall a single time where her character was dismantled in such a distasteful way to prop up another one. She has never been through worse.

the 90's, uncanny x f-orce, exiles, that adorable time where she was trown around betwen bodies like a rag doll in the sisterhood arc.
Im not saying that criticism isnt valid, but man every other community manages to discuss things, manage to create even a small amount of skeptical excitment.

We finally see larraz (or silva i get them mixed) draw betsy, she is in the center of an event for the first time in her history, yet somehow we have a mediocre writer so let's act all fatalistic?

Cause if bad writting is a reason to be like this the majority of the writing of betsy on kwannon's body is downright terrible for the majority of it"s "existance", so how come she had any fans to start with?

My criticism is at the fact this is "apreciation thread" doesnt even apreciate what there is to apreciate or even discuss better possibiliities or interesting ideas for the future, just constant non stop complaining.

[Ferro]

If quality of book is what you're arguing for here, it could be as you say. I haven't bought anything from Marvel since the Mystery in Madripoor fiasco, so I can't really form an opinion on the subject.

But her future has never looked more bleak than it does now, with all that's been going on with Kwannon in parallel. It's unprecedented, and I don't see how higher exposure under the current circumstances is reason for me to stay positive.

mystery in mandripor was one of the best moment;'s in betsy's HISTORY, freeing herself from a terrible cycle of abuse and manipulation by her strength and power alone without any additions or invasions of her Identity.

Those books butchered her character, killed her for years, it was vile especially because ninja woman in a sexy attire getting gutted by sabertoth was the highlight.

Betsy was a great character RUINED by the body switch then fixed in the late 2000's, not the other way around.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

Remember it wasn't a body switch, the two bodies were melded together to create what was supposed to be two pretty close to exact copies of the other, and the body that Kwannon is in now is NOT her original body, that one is long gone, her identity had come up over the years and how she felt about being in the Asian body and she had long ago accepted it and moved on, then it got dredged up again, she hadn't worn the thong in years actually before they changed her back, though it seems that some are fine with Kwannon wearing the thong...

[Selene]

mystery in mandripor was one of the best moment;'s in betsy's HISTORY, freeing herself from a terrible cycle of abuse and manipulation by her strength and power alone without any additions or invasions of her Identity.

It was a ridiculous waste of tree and ink, whose writer wasn't even competent enough to centre the story exclusively on her, but instead chose to impose such a defining alteration on a character in the mini of an event about Wolverine.

Compare that piece of dreck to the Acts of Vengeance tie-in 30 years ago, irrespective of whether you appreciated the body swap or not and spot the differences.

Those books butchered her character, killed her for years, it was vile especially because ninja woman in a sexy attire getting gutted by sabertoth was the highlight.

Betsy was a great character RUINED by the body switch then fixed in the late 2000's, not the other way around.

Right, because bringing her back to her birth body is enough for fans to appreciate the character again? Like, where were you when Remender was writing Psylocke?

If people are repeatedly pointing out that writers are, BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION, are moving characteristics that made her popular away from her, then those concerns are 100% legitimate. It is unprecedented that a character (i. e. Kwannon) be elevated to the detriment of another one.

Cause if bad writting is a reason to be like this the majority of the writing of betsy on kwannon's body is downright terrible for the majority of it"s "existance", so how come she had any fans to start with?

How is that relevant to the discussion? Far more people would have given up on Psylocke if the body switch had been as big a mistake as you make it out to be. She was the only among that generation of X-Men to join the main line of X-Men books in the 90s, and this was not as a result of wanting more racial diversity to comics.

You aren't convincing anyone to start enjoying her present direction with the "she's free of that vicious cycle of abuse and violation" argument.

[Yronheart]

It's not just a case of temporary bad writing, it's a complete and irrevocable change to the character. And I'm not referring to the body switch, I'm referring to her entire identity being stripped away so that Disney can market Psylocke, the psychic ninja, without the uncomfortable race swap implications. I was down with Kwannon being her own character but that's clearly not the case.

As for the Captain Britain identity, I just don't think its that compelling or marketable, and I'm saying that as an actual British person. This isn't the same character for me anymore.

[Ferro]

It was a ridiculous waste of tree and ink, whose writer wasn't even competent enough to centre the story exclusively on her, but instead chose to impose such a defining alteration on a character in the mini of an event about Wolverine.

Compare that piece of dreck to the Acts of Vengeance tie-in 30 years ago, irrespective of whether you appreciated the body swap or not and spot the differences.

Right, because bringing her back to her birth body is enough for fans to appreciate the character again? Like, where were you when Remender was writing Psylocke?

If people are repeatedly pointing out that writers are, BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION, are moving characteristics that made her popular away from her, then those concerns are 100% legitimate. It is unprecedented that a character (i. e. Kwannon) be elevated to the detriment of another one.


How is that relevant to the discussion? Far more people would have given up on Psylocke if the body switch had been as big a mistake as you make it out to be. She was the only among that generation of X-Men to join the main line of X-Men books in the 90s, and this was not as a result of wanting more racial diversity to comics.

You aren't convincing anyone to start enjoying her present direction with the "she's free of that vicious cycle of abuse and violation" argument.

I was here when betsy was in uncanny x-force by ricky because it was her first GOOD STORY in decades since the body switch, most of the characteristics that are being removed are : being an enourmous dragon lady stereotype+ sexy ugly costume + name given to her by mojo.
Because uncanny x-men 2019, extremists, age of x-men have analyzed and reinterated betsy's past, characterization, trauma and moral compass.
Even in excalibur issue one, morgan uses that to atack her, calling her a creature of darkness with violent tendencies that steals lives.

But the book is weak on character work and it's a criticism I never try to contradict because its clear to see , but STILL she is consistenly shown as prone to agression and cold in the face of killing the war wolves, its a mediocre title but it isnt destructive, any good writer with a better sense of continuity (like i dunno hickman that will write her in this massive new event she's a key piece off) will put it right on track.


Because it's not focusing on character work doesnt mean its changing anything irreversably.

And kwannon is being elevated??? in what way???? being shiped from one fringe title to another? she is literaly an empty box with the shallow decorations that made the "ninja locke" popular in the first place, being a dragon lady stereotype that the lower common denominator ate up completly, and readers in the 90's weren't exactly paragons of taste.

Ninja lock was popular because she had her ass more often on page than her face, not because her writting was good or in character to the ACTUAL BETSY BRADDOCK we were introduced to in the 80's.

If you only liked betsy because she was a ninja (wich is the only thing shes losing because characterization, power signatures and even names come and go in comics) just enjoy kwannon, because she exists to catter to the people that never really cared about betsy braddock, just the sexy ninja named psylocke.

Go enjoy the "magnitude of my psychic powers" gal

[Ferro]

It's not just a case of temporary bad writing, it's a complete and irrevocable change to the character. And I'm not referring to the body switch, I'm referring to her entire identity being stripped away so that Disney can market Psylocke, the psychic ninja, without the uncomfortable race swap implications. I was down with Kwannon being her own character but that's clearly not the case.

As for the Captain Britain identity, I just don't think its that compelling or marketable, and I'm saying that as an actual British person. This isn't the same character for me anymore.

the body switch was an "irrevocable change" in the first place.
she went from an extremely competent, deep and unique figure in the team that grew organicaly into a powerhouse to... whatever that was that served to get torn to shreds (while looking oh so sexy) by everyone and lets beast lick her, that took until 2010 ish to become good again once a writer realized it was the same betsy braddock in that body, that was turned agaist her will into a difrent perston, realizing that it was a nightmare like situation and wrote a story about it.

Never forget that the proper betsy was able to fend off sabertooth in a dress, ninjalocke got gutted by him TWICE.

[CGAR]

We will see what happens.

I'm hoping that event puts her in the spotlight and that other writers get to write good moments for her because we are NOT getting it from Tini Howard.

Most of us will just have to agree to disagree.

We say the same things over and over.

I appreciate that Betsy is back to her original body. I like that they focused on her family and Otherworld. BUT it was not done in a way that gave her any depth or insight into her new reality. And yes I do blame that on the writer.

I was fine with Kwannon coming back but I wanted her to step away and be her own person. I mean she came back resenting Betsy to just associate with everything she resented about Betsy.

Like WTF. Ok Marvel. They say they kept her in the 90s Jim Lee swimsuit because it was one of the issues that sold the most. Huh? Well then with that reasoning why aren't all the other X-men in their 90s attire. It was just a stupid statment. Marvel wanted their cake and to eat it too.

I do not understand why she had to lose a lot of herself to elevate Kwannon. All they had to do was let Kwannon keep the psychic blade and give her a better reason as to why she wanted to wear uniform and keep the Psylocke name. They should have just given her black hair to differentiate her (which I am grateful that Segovia is doing in Hellions). Even when Betsy was Psylocke colorist NEVER got that right. It was blue or black or purple.

Why can't Betsy still be great hand-to-hand martial arts just because she isnt Asian anymore? Elektra, Kitty Pryde, and Logan are all white and are great martial arts combatants.

I loved all of Betsy's uniform after the Jim Lee 90s uniform but why couldn't she keep it when she became caucasian? Elektra is greek caucasian and her uniform was basically the same thing but red.

I just think editorial f**** up on that. Their logic and reasoning behind alot of their decisions are VERY FLAWED in my opinion.

What's done is done.

This whole thing was mishandled.

After Mystery in Madripoor both Kwannon and Betsy were MIA for months. Marvel SHOULD have release a mini featuring both of them. But no we had to go through Extermination than we barely got any of Betsy in X-Men Disassembled. Though I do appreciate that she was featured there.

I actually like Kwannon as well. And I think she has a great writer with Zeb Wells.

But I wish we had someone like Mike Carey. What he did for Rogue and Xavier in Legacy. That's what should be happening with Betsy.

To end on a positive note. I'm looking forward to the story arc Betsy has in Swords of X.

Hoping that Hickman does something big with the Braddock twins because he featured them in alternate Illuminati's and in Secret Wars.

[MechaJeanix]

I like Betsy's current direction. It is an interesting one but I did like how Betsy was used in Disassembled (overall I did not enjoy the story), she was in her British body but still seemed like the character we have known before (superficially still had her psi-knives, tk weapons, and a butterfly-esque signature). Though it isn't as important, I don't see why Betsy and Kwannon cannot have similar power signatures (other characters share them.. just look at most the telepaths, etc).

I think some were so used to Betsy being a more assertive, action junkie physical fighter. But Betsy is still a fighter and leader as CB. At least Betsy is a main character in a team book and as the leader. Betsy and Kwannon are not unlike Jean and Phoenix. They will always be connected in a lot of ways and they were part of each other (and had a big effect and impact on each other that cannot be denied).

I look forward to see where both Betsy and Kwannon end up in the new era. Like many here I loved Betsy as the ninja warrior from the 90s (my first introduction to her) but I also loved her as British Betsy and we probably should be happy that they are still writing stories for and about her. Betsy had this big soap opera-esque transformation that lasted what, 29 years? Now she has a new future as the new Captain Britain. Maybe Excalibur will pick up after this X of Swords story is over and the Apocalypse subplot is done.

[Steel Inquisitor]

I like Betsy's current direction. It is an interesting one but I did like how Betsy was used in Disassembled (overall I did not enjoy the story), she was in her British body but still seemed like the character we have known before (superficially still had her psi-knives, tk weapons, and a butterfly-esque signature). Though it isn't as important, I don't see why Betsy and Kwannon cannot have similar power signatures (other characters share them.. just look at most the telepaths, etc).

I think some were so used to Betsy being a more assertive, action junkie physical fighter. But Betsy is still a fighter and leader as CB. At least Betsy is a main character in a team book and as the leader. Betsy and Kwannon are not unlike Jean and Phoenix. They will always be connected in a lot of ways and they were part of each other (and had a big effect and impact on each other that cannot be denied).

I look forward to see where both Betsy and Kwannon end up in the new era. Like many here I loved Betsy as the ninja warrior from the 90s (my first introduction to her) but I also loved her as British Betsy and we probably should be happy that they are still writing stories for and about her. Betsy had this big soap opera-esque transformation that lasted what, 29 years? Now she has a new future as the new Captain Britain. Maybe Excalibur will pick up after this X of Swords story is over and the Apocalypse subplot is done.

Exactly. Putting her on a main X-book will put make a supporting or cameo role while she's the lead in Excalibur.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

Betsy's time as CB will end probably about as soon as this version of Excalibur, then she'll just be Betsy again with no codename since they gave Psylocke to Kwannon even though Betsy used the name before the whole body merge thing...right now she's a main character in a team book that really isn't even about her, Apocalypse is the main star with everybody else including Betsy as just supporting characters really, wasn't she in the Asian body longer than she was in her old English body, or almost as long...

I'd rather Carey stay away from Betsy, not a fan of his after how he put Magneto and Rogue together and then basically gave anyone that complained or argued against it the middle finger...

[Psy-lock]

I was here when betsy was in uncanny x-force by ricky because it was her first GOOD STORY in decades since the body switch, most of the characteristics that are being removed are : being an enourmous dragon lady stereotype+ sexy ugly costume + name given to her by mojo

According to wikipedia "Dragon Lady is usually a stereotype of East Asian and occasionally South Asian and Southeast Asian women as strong, deceitful, domineering, or mysterious". She already had these characteristics in her white body, it only made sense to keep them in the Asian one.

The sexy ugly costume was replaced with a costume that's just ugly.

At least the name given to her by Mojo belonged only to her, not stolen from some male character.