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  1. #1021
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    And yet it's also Canon that Jessica was a little girl years before the Drews ever moved to Wundagore, built on land Meriem inherited from her family.
    So much so that the story ran in several high profile annuals a few years ago.
    In fact, has it ever been explained why two such radically different origin stories can co-exist in the MU simultaneously?
    Because without explanation or official retcon, that is just very shoddy, lazy writing that disregards some pretty important continuity, and shows a lack of homework.

  2. #1022
    Astonishing Member Seren's Avatar
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    The Bendis version is the official retcon. They wouldn't have published it otherwise. And they certainly wouldn't let Karla be using it heavily in the official series if it wasn't.

    And if you pay attention, you can see that while the writer is drawing heavily from Bendis version, she's also honoring the original series as well.
    Last edited by Seren; 09-24-2020 at 08:50 PM.
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  3. #1023
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seren View Post
    The Bendis version is the official retcon. They wouldn't have published it otherwise. And they certainly wouldn't let Karla be using it heavily in the official series if it wasn't.

    And if you pay attention, you can see that while the writer is drawing heavily from Bendis version, she's also honoring the original series as well.
    I curious, because we know cow Bova was real. But Bendis version makes her human.

  4. #1024
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    I've been paying close attention.

    Retcons and reboots are two completely different things.
    "Origin" was a wholesale in-universe reboot with no explanation.

    All I'm saying is that Karla is treating Jess as if she were created in 2006.
    How exactly is she honoring the original series? I don't seem to be catching that.

  5. #1025
    Astonishing Member Seren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jebsib View Post
    I've been paying close attention.

    Retcons and reboots are two completely different things.
    "Origin" was a wholesale in-universe reboot with no explanation.

    All I'm saying is that Karla is treating Jess as if she were created in 2006.
    How exactly is she honoring the original series? I don't seem to be catching that.
    Bendis has written out the high evolutionary's involvement in Origin. Karla is bringing it back. Or so it seems anyway going by solicitations.
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  6. #1026
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    I feel the original origin connected Jessica to the Marvel Universe much better than Bendis's retcon did. I think many of us had more questions than resolutions after that new Origin was told. I'd be happy to just see it gone, but if elements of the classic origin are brought back -- I'd settle for that.

  7. #1027
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    The High Evolutionary was a presence in Origin.
    Granted, it was presented in a murky, non-committal way like a lot of that series.

    Since 80% of Marvel stories about Wundagore mountain revolve around the HE, I’m not convinced that’s going to be a nod to the original series.
    Last edited by jebsib; 09-26-2020 at 10:29 AM.

  8. #1028
    Astonishing Member Seren's Avatar
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    Touche.

    That said it's fine if you don't like it but I'm going to disagree with your opinion and that's fine. I'm going to continue to appreciate the current run because I am enjoying it.

    ETA: Outside of the Claremont Arc I really didn't like a lot of Jessica's original series. It did a good job tying her into the rest of the MU as a whole but only because none of the writers really knew what to do with her. The run was so inconsistant and sometimes just outright terrible. It's also a product of the times and quite frankly, I prefer the new stuff. However, you don't see me constantly criticizing the old stuff. You're allowed to prefer it. Please stop coming in to this thread and telling me how much you hate the new stuff. Because honestly, this thread gets more hate than actual Jessica Drew appreciation.
    Last edited by Seren; 09-26-2020 at 11:31 AM.
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  9. #1029
    Dark Angel of Feminism Shadowcat's Avatar
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    Just picked up the Strikeforce book, and I’m struggling through the first issue. Tell me it gets better.

  10. #1030
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    Just picked up the Strikeforce book, and I’m struggling through the first issue. Tell me it gets better.
    I loved it - but mostly for the characterization rather than the plot. Issue #4 was awesome but you can tell Tini got Excalibur after that issue.
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  11. #1031
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    Uh, based on the release dates Tini knew they had Excalibur before Strikeforce even started. Excalibur only launched one month after Strikeforce did.
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  12. #1032
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seren View Post
    Touche.

    That said it's fine if you don't like it but I'm going to disagree with your opinion and that's fine. I'm going to continue to appreciate the current run because I am enjoying it.

    ETA: Outside of the Claremont Arc I really didn't like a lot of Jessica's original series. It did a good job tying her into the rest of the MU as a whole but only because none of the writers really knew what to do with her. The run was so inconsistant and sometimes just outright terrible. It's also a product of the times and quite frankly, I prefer the new stuff. However, you don't see me constantly criticizing the old stuff. You're allowed to prefer it. Please stop coming in to this thread and telling me how much you hate the new stuff. Because honestly, this thread gets more hate than actual Jessica Drew appreciation.
    I'm glad you're enjoying Karla's stuff - knock yourself out - you're entitled. But telling people to stop coming into the thread if they have a legit, well-reasoned concern about a beloved character? You do know we're on a message board designed to discuss serialized characters, right? I've followed Jess for 43 years now. I sat through all of that original series, and I agree - a lot of it was an inconsistent waste. I am delighted that she celebrates 100 issues next month, because I have all those issues and then some: I was there for the 70s Modred retcons, the 80's de-powering, the Madripoor / Wolverine era, Mattie Franklin, Veranke, etc. I love the character. I'm invested in her. So when she is acting way OOC or AU, no one has a right to bring it up? That's not how it works anywhere else on this site - Heck, they are STILL griping about One More Day and how Peter Parker wasn't written in-character, 12 years later.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is we should not take these things so personally, right?
    No one is fighting with you, we're just not here to simply fawn over the latest writer.

  13. #1033
    Astonishing Member Seren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jebsib View Post
    I'm glad you're enjoying Karla's stuff - knock yourself out - you're entitled. But telling people to stop coming into the thread if they have a legit, well-reasoned concern about a beloved character? You do know we're on a message board designed to discuss serialized characters, right? I've followed Jess for 43 years now. I sat through all of that original series, and I agree - a lot of it was an inconsistent waste. I am delighted that she celebrates 100 issues next month, because I have all those issues and then some: I was there for the 70s Modred retcons, the 80's de-powering, the Madripoor / Wolverine era, Mattie Franklin, Veranke, etc. I love the character. I'm invested in her. So when she is acting way OOC or AU, no one has a right to bring it up? That's not how it works anywhere else on this site - Heck, they are STILL griping about One More Day and how Peter Parker wasn't written in-character, 12 years later.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is we should not take these things so personally, right?
    No one is fighting with you, we're just not here to simply fawn over the latest writer.
    I'm just frustrated that no one seems to have anything good to say but me and maybe one or two other people. As someone pointed out to me, Jessica's star is rising right now with her solo series and talk of a movie and all people are doing is griping when I feel like this thread should be full of Hype. At least we're getting content - which is more than what fans of Tigra or say Mockingbird are getting.

    I understand being critical to a point, but when nothing good is being said by anyone else it's tiring and frustrating. I'm going to disagree that Jess is OOC. I've read part of her original run and I have read all of the Wolverine run and I see that Jess in the current pages of Spider-Woman now. I'm not sure how she's OOC? Is a character not allowed to grow and change past their original series? Everyone who is complaining about the current run by Pacheco (and even the run by Dennis Hopeless) keep going back to how Jess was in the 70s/80s and quite frankly I am so so so glad she's moved beyond that. Not to say that you can't go back and revisit it because you CAN.

    I feel like sometimes I'm not reading the same book as everyone else. I see a writer who clearly has done their homework and researched the character and absolutely loves the character. Like - I couldn't ask for more in a comic book series?
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  14. #1034
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seren View Post
    I'm just frustrated that no one seems to have anything good to say but me and maybe one or two other people. As someone pointed out to me, Jessica's star is rising right now with her solo series and talk of a movie and all people are doing is griping when I feel like this thread should be full of Hype. At least we're getting content - which is more than what fans of Tigra or say Mockingbird are getting.

    I understand being critical to a point, but when nothing good is being said by anyone else it's tiring and frustrating. I'm going to disagree that Jess is OOC. I've read part of her original run and I have read all of the Wolverine run and I see that Jess in the current pages of Spider-Woman now. I'm not sure how she's OOC? Is a character not allowed to grow and change past their original series? Everyone who is complaining about the current run by Pacheco (and even the run by Dennis Hopeless) keep going back to how Jess was in the 70s/80s and quite frankly I am so so so glad she's moved beyond that. Not to say that you can't go back and revisit it because you CAN.

    I feel like sometimes I'm not reading the same book as everyone else. I see a writer who clearly has done their homework and researched the character and absolutely loves the character. Like - I couldn't ask for more in a comic book series?
    I can't say too much about the new run yet, as I am trade-waiting. But I will say that what I've read in interviews, reviews, etc, and seen in First Look previews and such has me excited for the run.

    On the subject of "out of character"--I think part of the issue is that Jessica Drew has been such an inconsistent character over the years, in every way. Her origins have been subject to multiple lies, twists and secret reveals. The "Origin" miniseries was intended to clarify it but actually made it even more of a mess. Her original run was inconsistent, with multiple different creative teams and a variety of different directions and tones. Her role in the Marvel Universe has fluctuated a lot over the years, with her being a Hydra agent, a superhero, a private investigator, a SHIELD agent--and sometimes more than one of those things simultaneously. She's been both a powered and a non-powered character. The character made her big comeback after years as a mostly-in-limbo third stringer....and then was revealed to be a Skrull, so then we had to re-meet and re-learn who the real Jessica Drew was at this stage.

    With all of that change and inconsistency (some of it intentional, and some of it not), it is certainly understandable that different fans will have different perspectives on what Jessica is "really" like to them. Add to that the fact that she is now a mother--becoming a parent makes a profound impact on a person and their attitudes and priorities in life. So in some cases, post-baby Jessica may act differently or have different opinions than pre-baby Jessica...but that isn't automatically 'out of character'; it may be a result of her life changes.

    For myself, I have read a lot, but not all, of the original SPIDER-WOMAN series. The Claremont run was far and away the best period of the book, in my opinion. I tend to be more of a fan of her modern material myself -- I enjoyed the Hopeless run (although the decision to give Jessica a baby still strikes me as weird), and I am looking forward to the new run once it comes out in TPB.

  15. #1035
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seren View Post
    I'm just frustrated that no one seems to have anything good to say but me and maybe one or two other people. As someone pointed out to me, Jessica's star is rising right now with her solo series and talk of a movie and all people are doing is griping when I feel like this thread should be full of Hype. At least we're getting content - which is more than what fans of Tigra or say Mockingbird are getting.

    I understand being critical to a point, but when nothing good is being said by anyone else it's tiring and frustrating. I'm going to disagree that Jess is OOC. I've read part of her original run and I have read all of the Wolverine run and I see that Jess in the current pages of Spider-Woman now. I'm not sure how she's OOC? Is a character not allowed to grow and change past their original series? Everyone who is complaining about the current run by Pacheco (and even the run by Dennis Hopeless) keep going back to how Jess was in the 70s/80s and quite frankly I am so so so glad she's moved beyond that. Not to say that you can't go back and revisit it because you CAN.

    I feel like sometimes I'm not reading the same book as everyone else. I see a writer who clearly has done their homework and researched the character and absolutely loves the character. Like - I couldn't ask for more in a comic book series?
    Ok, I was going to sign off, but you keep on going… :-)

    Let me be clear, no true fan wants SW to be written like she was in the '70s or '80s. If that were the case, we'd be upset that our characters hadn't evolved from the silver age. But AS true fans of Jessica, we become invested in her character and experiences. We do look for growth and new situations - but not jarring unexplained contradictions. That's not unusual on these boards - just read through the Thor threads under Jason Aaron, or the FF under Slott… or just about any long standing series: You will always get fans who bemoan that Iron Man is 'so Robert Downey Jr" these days, or Star-Lord is unrecognizable. Yes, characters HAVE to grow and change past their original series, but if they do it too much, they become unrecognizable.

    You keep saying that Karla has done her homework and loves the character. Well, she certainly seems enthusiastic (which is lovely) but beyond reading the Bendis mini series, I see very little homework done for a character she purports to love so much. Best friend Lindsay McCabe? Arch foe Morgan LeFey? Any previous love interest? Not even passing mentions. Not a pre-requisite, but it would encourage us that KP knows the character a little beyond 2006. Jessica has always been positioned as a confused & isolated - but sophisticated, classy woman... strong and seasoned. Karla writes her like an amateur, swearing on every other page and making rookie moves: Being misled & dangerously lied to by 'her family', taking their word (blindly) that it's all legit, then roaring into battle seconds later, yelling, "Get the Hell away from my Family!" Really?!? Fun, perhaps, but if you think this in-character for, say, Claremont's Jessica...

    Let me give you a great example: SW#4 came out on Wednesday, right? The exact same day, Immortal She-Hulk #1 was released, showcasing Marvel's other huge female Property from the same time period - and another character who's changed a lot in tone & direction over the years. But in this one-shot, Al Ewing was able to respect continuity, add to it, expand on Jennifer's story and move a hugely complex saga forward in one issue. THAT is how you handle a legacy character like SW. And that is why we are waiting with bated breath to see what Karla does going forward.

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