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  1. #376
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohfellow View Post
    Was afraid somebody would ask .

    At this point maybe one or two questions.

    Unclear to me how the police car is intercepted in #2 - in the red smoke MAYBE it's the van that blocks the way. In which case the van would have had to have a police scanner so the rest of the gang wold have known when Steve was in the ER, and when he was being transported to jail, and along what route. But if the van was just lying in wait - why wouldn't Barbara, who was sat-tracking it, not have already sent the police after it?

    But it actually looks more like a manhole explodes in front of the police car. If the van wasn't involved, not sure what exactly blew up or how it was engineered, and what Steph followed back to HQ.

    Either way, Steph manages to track something or someone back to HQ before Barbara can. Assuming she was able to keep up with her grappling lines, I guess Steph would know when it had arrived at its destination before Barbara would have been able to tell that.

    It is an exciting story even if I can't piece it all together. What we're supposed to take away is that Steph helps out at the police car incident, finds Scarecrow's hideaway independently of Barbara's tracking, and goes in solo against Barbara's advice. Exactly how it all works out is left to the imagination, or I'm just missing something. Thinking too hard. (Or not hard enough.)

    Your synopses at TBU are always spot on, so maybe you can nail this one too.
    Ok, I shall try to see if I can make sense of the plot (though I think BQM tends to write like a solid Hollywood action movie or show, which often disregard complete plausibility for Rule of Cool).

    In issue #2 - I think that Scarecrow's gang actually causes a pressure wave that causes the manhole covers to explode upwards with Thrill gas, one of which goes off before the car, one of which hits underneath. The driver slams of his brakes and stops because of the first cover, and the car is damaged by the second. The driver then inhales the Thrill, and thus won't be driving anymore. I think Nick Gage was knocked unconscious by the collision of the second cover. Steph find the police car, and knocks out the Thrill-addled driver with a taser-rang, then the issue ends with the reveal that Scarecrow is the Big Bad of the arc, and was behind rescuing Steve, the prisoner in the police car. I imagine that the van had the tanks of Thrill they pumped into the sewer system, causing the explosion (no idea if any of this is possible, thus my comment about the action movie/tv writing - it certainly happen in movies!), and was close enough for pickup of Steve, or they signalled to him to run to it. Or maybe Steve just ran to the base.

    In issue #3, Steph's opening narration (on page 2) says that Oracle sat-tracks the van. I don't know that it's implied she got there before Babs gives her the information. I'd say that Babs regrets her nastiness in issue #2, and gives Steph the location, which Steph was close to already since she was tracking herself, as best she could.

    Maybe that makes a bit of sense?
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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  2. #377
    Uncanny Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Clean version of that Steph art without that Multiversity watermark.
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  3. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Clean version of that Steph art without that Multiversity watermark.
    I’ve always wondered if Flashpoint didn’t happen, how long would she have stayed Batgirl?


    They finally seemed content with Cass being Black Bat

  4. #379
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    I’ve always wondered if Flashpoint didn’t happen, how long would she have stayed Batgirl?

    They finally seemed content with Cass being Black Bat
    It's impossible to say. I think we almost certainly would have gotten at least another 6 months, if not a full year, but we can never know these things. I'm pretty sure the DCYou people didn't know in June of 2015 that June 2016 would bring Rebirth.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  5. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Ok, I shall try to see if I can make sense of the plot (though I think BQM tends to write like a solid Hollywood action movie or show, which often disregard complete plausibility for Rule of Cool).
    Yeah, a huge pet peeve of mine. It worries me that the word has been that DC intends to employ more screenwriters. NORMALLY, comic books are written with greater plot coherence than film/TV. My theory is you can read comics at your own pace and easily turn back pages to clarify the plot, and comic writers and editors know this. Film and TV move ahead inexorably, and you just have to keep up, pay attention to the moment. Action films are designed around spectacular set pieces, and the rest is just glue to somehow get you from one such scene to the next, hopefully reasonably paced, and with some theme and character development.

    Don't get me started on Arrowverse shows! And they aren't engaging enough to hide the plot holes. If deus ex machina is your thing, these are the shows for you! (I watch them anyway, but ask myself why!)

    But with comics, you can pour over the "script" as it were, at least the parts that made it to the page. I can analyze and re-analyze these two issues of Batgirl in a way I usually can't after watching a film, since my scene-by-scene recall is insufficient.

    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    In issue #2 - I think that Scarecrow's gang actually causes a pressure wave that causes the manhole covers to explode upwards with Thrill gas, one of which goes off before the car, one of which hits underneath. The driver slams of his brakes and stops because of the first cover, and the car is damaged by the second. The driver then inhales the Thrill, and thus won't be driving anymore. I think Nick Gage was knocked unconscious by the collision of the second cover. Steph find the police car, and knocks out the Thrill-addled driver with a taser-rang, then the issue ends with the reveal that Scarecrow is the Big Bad of the arc, and was behind rescuing Steve, the prisoner in the police car. I imagine that the van had the tanks of Thrill they pumped into the sewer system, causing the explosion (no idea if any of this is possible, thus my comment about the action movie/tv writing - it certainly happen in movies!), and was close enough for pickup of Steve, or they signalled to him to run to it. Or maybe Steve just ran to the base.
    Yes, I think you've got it, and it's surely as close to BQM's intentions as anyone could conclude, or that he would have any right to expect given what's on the page.

    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    In issue #3, Steph's opening narration (on page 2) says that Oracle sat-tracks the van. I don't know that it's implied she got there before Babs gives her the information. I'd say that Babs regrets her nastiness in issue #2, and gives Steph the location, which Steph was close to already since she was tracking herself, as best she could.
    I would suggest a slightly different interpretation based on what we know from #2 and the conversation and thoughts in #3, page 2.

    They haven't buried the hatchet yet. Steph knows that Barbara is pissed at her, and Barbara thinks that she could "kill" Steph. Given how they left things in #2, why would she have involved Steph at all in something this dangerous (or any mission at all), let alone guide Steph to get there before the police (who I assume Oracle tipped off). So I think Steph tracked them independently, and lets Barbara know when she's there, and while Barbara hopes Steph waits for the police to arrive, says she can't stop her from going in alone. That said, she offers plenty of help once Steph heads in.

    Maybe BQM intended that Barbara gave Steph the location, but that doesn't add up to me. It might be a case of a TV writer not bothering to think through all the details.

    There's an art to comic book writing to advance plot and character in minimal words, with the art hopefully carrying the rest of the load. (I obviously wouldn't have that skill .)

    Either way, things proceed fairly rationally from there.

    I guess Scarecrow has Steve and the other lackey fight to the death partly for sport, but that doesn't seem like the best time for him to be fooling around. So maybe it's just that they serve him no further purpose, having released the Thrill at the Harvest Festival per his orders. They're not like his guards; they're just a useless bunch of addicts.

    But most likely BQM has established no real motivation behind it, and he puts it in there to illustrate how insane and dangerous Scarecrow is, and to provide another graphic reminder of the level of insanity the Thrill gas can induce and the danger Steph is facing. Which leads well into Steph's hallucinations.

    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Maybe that makes a bit of sense?
    Yup.

  6. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Clean version of that Steph art without that Multiversity watermark.
    I love this, and Jim Lee has been doing amazing sketches for this charity drive. His diptych with Huntress and Deathstroke, with Batman's facial features illustrated with buildings, is amazing.

    This auction is up to $10,099 with 2 days remaining - I don't know how much the others have been selling for, as for some reason buyers haven't been leaving feedback. And I don't know how to find links to concluded auctions, except through feedback. If this keeps up, and if the charity dispenses with most of the money it takes in, there's going to be a lot of money to distribute to comic shops, but who knows if it will be significant enough to save them. It may well cover several months of payroll for many shops.

  7. #382
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Here's hoping. While I have very little sympathy for what DC and Diamond are going through right now, the comics shops are an entirely different matter.
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  8. #383
    Uncanny Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    It's impossible to say. I think we almost certainly would have gotten at least another 6 months, if not a full year, but we can never know these things. I'm pretty sure the DCYou people didn't know in June of 2015 that June 2016 would bring Rebirth.
    I agree, probably one more year. They were already setting up Barbara's return - she'd grown her hair out, so it would now be long enough to see under the cowl (unlike the bob she wore for most of the 90s and 2000s), she'd set up Wendy Harris as Proxy to do her Oracle work, and she kept disappearing, possibly to make arrangements for the operation she had to fix her spine and allow her to walk again, she had that op off panel just before her New 52 series started so it looks like that plot just got brought forward. A DC Nation page said they'd considered making Babs Batgirl again before choosing Steph (there's concept art in Barbara's thread).
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  9. #384
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    To me, “Oracle” was to Barbara as “Nightwing” was to Dick. When she flat-out dropped it when she became Batgirl again, it was a step back for her.

    Anyway, this is a Stephanie thread, not a Babs thread. The final issue of Stephanie's run (which I'm sure we'll comment on in much more detail once we get there) featured a montage of where BQM had wanted to take Stephanie next. If I recall correctly, there was at least another year's worth of stuff in the works. And there were plans for what would become of Stephanie after Batgirl.
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  10. #385
    Uncanny Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    I think they must've expected Dick to stay as Batman, because...
    spoilers:
    They showed Steph as Nightwing.
    end of spoilers

    This was posted in Damian's thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by CPSparkles View Post
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  11. #386
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Yes, indeed.
    Rogue wears rouge.
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  12. #387
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohfellow View Post
    I love this, and Jim Lee has been doing amazing sketches for this charity drive. His diptych with Huntress and Deathstroke, with Batman's facial features illustrated with buildings, is amazing.

    This auction is up to $10,099 with 2 days remaining - I don't know how much the others have been selling for, as for some reason buyers haven't been leaving feedback. And I don't know how to find links to concluded auctions, except through feedback. If this keeps up, and if the charity dispenses with most of the money it takes in, there's going to be a lot of money to distribute to comic shops, but who knows if it will be significant enough to save them. It may well cover several months of payroll for many shops.
    Deathstroke is going for about $10k right now, and Huntress is at $12k, with 6 hours to go. I hope Steph can top them all and really show that she's worthy of a mini, solo, or even a prominent role on a team book like...League of Batgirls!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    Here's hoping. While I have very little sympathy for what DC and Diamond are going through right now, the comics shops are an entirely different matter.
    I hope my own shop will survive. I would like to keep them, as I don't like the other shop in my area nearly as much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    I agree, probably one more year. They were already setting up Barbara's return - she'd grown her hair out, so it would now be long enough to see under the cowl (unlike the bob she wore for most of the 90s and 2000s), she'd set up Wendy Harris as Proxy to do her Oracle work, and she kept disappearing, possibly to make arrangements for the operation she had to fix her spine and allow her to walk again, she had that op off panel just before her New 52 series started so it looks like that plot just got brought forward. A DC Nation page said they'd considered making Babs Batgirl again before choosing Steph (there's concept art in Barbara's thread).
    Yes - that DC Nation page was in Batgirl #2, though the concept art dates back to 2005-2006, just before 52 launched Batwoman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    To me, “Oracle” was to Barbara as “Nightwing” was to Dick. When she flat-out dropped it when she became Batgirl again, it was a step back for her.

    Anyway, this is a Stephanie thread, not a Babs thread. The final issue of Stephanie's run (which I'm sure we'll comment on in much more detail once we get there) featured a montage of where BQM had wanted to take Stephanie next. If I recall correctly, there was at least another year's worth of stuff in the works. And there were plans for what would become of Stephanie after Batgirl.
    We shall indeed talk about it, and I'll link to the page on Steph's wiki, where I've collected the "director's commentary" BQM did!

    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    This was posted in Damian's thread.

    That's the artist from DCeased: Unkillables. I dunno why, but I really don't like their art in the series itself, but this piece is stunning. Probably the black and white effects work a lot better than the colors. Maybe I'm not a fan of the colorist for that series, and it's giving me a worse impression of the art than I normally would.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
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  13. #388
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohfellow View Post
    Yeah, a huge pet peeve of mine. It worries me that the word has been that DC intends to employ more screenwriters. NORMALLY, comic books are written with greater plot coherence than film/TV. My theory is you can read comics at your own pace and easily turn back pages to clarify the plot, and comic writers and editors know this. Film and TV move ahead inexorably, and you just have to keep up, pay attention to the moment. Action films are designed around spectacular set pieces, and the rest is just glue to somehow get you from one such scene to the next, hopefully reasonably paced, and with some theme and character development.

    Don't get me started on Arrowverse shows! And they aren't engaging enough to hide the plot holes. If deus ex machina is your thing, these are the shows for you! (I watch them anyway, but ask myself why!)

    But with comics, you can pour over the "script" as it were, at least the parts that made it to the page. I can analyze and re-analyze these two issues of Batgirl in a way I usually can't after watching a film, since my scene-by-scene recall is insufficient.

    Yes, I think you've got it, and it's surely as close to BQM's intentions as anyone could conclude, or that he would have any right to expect given what's on the page.

    I would suggest a slightly different interpretation based on what we know from #2 and the conversation and thoughts in #3, page 2.

    They haven't buried the hatchet yet. Steph knows that Barbara is pissed at her, and Barbara thinks that she could "kill" Steph. Given how they left things in #2, why would she have involved Steph at all in something this dangerous (or any mission at all), let alone guide Steph to get there before the police (who I assume Oracle tipped off). So I think Steph tracked them independently, and lets Barbara know when she's there, and while Barbara hopes Steph waits for the police to arrive, says she can't stop her from going in alone. That said, she offers plenty of help once Steph heads in.

    Maybe BQM intended that Barbara gave Steph the location, but that doesn't add up to me. It might be a case of a TV writer not bothering to think through all the details.

    There's an art to comic book writing to advance plot and character in minimal words, with the art hopefully carrying the rest of the load. (I obviously wouldn't have that skill .)

    Either way, things proceed fairly rationally from there.

    I guess Scarecrow has Steve and the other lackey fight to the death partly for sport, but that doesn't seem like the best time for him to be fooling around. So maybe it's just that they serve him no further purpose, having released the Thrill at the Harvest Festival per his orders. They're not like his guards; they're just a useless bunch of addicts.

    But most likely BQM has established no real motivation behind it, and he puts it in there to illustrate how insane and dangerous Scarecrow is, and to provide another graphic reminder of the level of insanity the Thrill gas can induce and the danger Steph is facing. Which leads well into Steph's hallucinations.

    Yup.
    My worry about DC's rumored hiring plans is less that they're reaching out to TV writers, and more that they're not getting the top quality ones. Comics used to attract really high levels of talent, like John Rogers (Leverage) for Blue Beetle, or Joss Whedon for Astonishing X-Men. Now, we're mostly getting mid-level TV writers, who are fun, but there's a reason they're midlevel and not household TV fan names, and I don't think they're really elevating the comics they're on as much as those titles need to be elevated. (At least Arrowverse is keeping Guggenheim away from most comics these days...)

    I think that you're definitely correct that Babs and Steph are still at odds in the beginning of 3, but Babs is still giving Steph backup advice, though with sharp comments about how "she can't stop her." And I think we catch them mid-conversation, which to me hints that Babs told Steph where to go, since Steph does narrate that Oracle sat-tracked the van - how would she know that if Babs hadn't told her, and why would Babs tell her that if she didn't also tell Steph where to go. Babs also had a realization at the end of #2 that she's trying to break Steph, and feels guilty and acts even more angry as a result.

    That being said, I think it's also totally possible that Steve ran to Scarecrow's base on foot, since he walks into the base and is immediately confronted with the boss, which might seem a bit odd if Scarecrow was in the van. But maybe we was driving, or maybe he wasn't in the van, and my assumptions are all wrong.

    I think Scarecrow doesn't really have a master plan, just wants to spread chaos and maybe make some money off addicts. Steve failed him, so I'm betting it's like Darth Vader - Steve failed him for the last time.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  14. #389
    Ultimate Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    Yes, indeed.
    Short-haired Steph just feels off to me.

  15. #390
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Then try this one:
    Last edited by Dataweaver; 04-20-2020 at 04:00 PM.
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